Working on the "best" mystic theurge

[williamoak]

I will be amon the first to admit that a mystic theurge is not a terribly great PrC. Access to higher level spells has generally greater value than having access to more low-level spells. However, the access to both spell lists (divine & arcane) does present certain advantages to a specific type of character: the construct-mancer (or golemancer). Someone who specializes in crafting constructs will be much better equipped with both spell lists, be able to craft much more quickly, and can use it's construct bodyguards as it's main battle contribution. I'm using my own construct crafter guide as a basis for this optimization. I'm open to any & all input, as long as it respects these 2 basic edicts:

1) We ARE working on a mystic theurge

2) They MUST be able to build constructs. That's all!

Ok, so to simplify comparisons, I'm taking a dwarf. 20 pt buy. Sticking to first-party stuff on the PFSRD.

Race: Oread
Traits: spark of creation, patient calm (in craft (sculpture));
Stats (20pts)
Str: 9 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 17 Wis: 16 Cha: 9

Class: Wizard (arcane crafter) 3/ Cleric (forgemaster) (artifice (construct) domain)/mystic theurge;
Wizard:
1 Dwarf Blooded
2
3 Arcane builder (cwi, retrain to construct later), Bonus: Craft Wond Items
Cleric (forgemaster):
4
5 Toughness;
6 Bonus: Craft Magic arms & armor
Mystic theurge
7 Craft Construct

Ok, so using the whole "having an SLA gives you a CL" shtick, to qualify for things as early as possible (here, level 7) (a wizard could be ok by level 5, but this aint a pure wizard). Unfortunately, oread doesnt allow you to qualify for anything else earlier, but here having 3 levels of wizard & 3 of cleric are worth it (for bonus feats). Also, you've had enough feats to be decently durable (if not exceptional) and the universalist school maximizes crafting ease. I'll finish a build up to level 13 tonight, but it will take some time.

Edit: I would have loved to make this work with a dwarf, but it wouldnt have before level 9.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

Because of early entry, a mystic theurge is a great class. With use of spell caster guilds, mystic theurge is a fantastic class. You can use it to give up 3 of your 4 wizard bonus feats and recduce the power of you wizard class powers for the full casting power of a 13th level cleric, +2 to fort saves, and +1 to will saves, and some minor* cleric powers.
*Note choosing good domains can mean the powers are not so minor at all.

Plan your character as a wizard in all regards, except that you will not use wisdom as a dump stat. Choose a cleric domain that will give you an effective 2nd level divine spell. Trickery is the standard go to as Sean Reynolds posted directly that the copy cat ability qualifies. For your character concept the smoke domain's power "cloud of smoke" should qualify as a derivative of pyrotechnics. A second domain of strategy will allow you to roll twice for init giving you another boost to the ever sought after initiative order.

Choose a race with a bonus to int, and no penalty to wis. Samsaran is +2 to wis and int. An elf is a good choice as well. Keep in mind you eventually want a wisdom of 17 as you will be able to cast 7th level cleric spells. This can be done largely with a magic item (especially if you want to be a crafter.) Be middle aged or older for a bonus to wisdom and int. A peri-blooded aasimar with the "Spark of Life" alternate trait will give you the +2 int bonus and middle aged +1 to int and wis while offsetting the middle aged penalties to physical stats.

Level up as:
wiz 1
cleric 1
wiz 2
wiz 3
mystic theurge 1-10
wiz 4 - 9

Since you int will be much higher than wisdom, put all your attack spells into wizard slots keeping your no save spells for cleric whenever possible.

Join a spell crafters guild as soon as possible and do everything you can to get your reputation up. Put your first bonus to caster level in cleric as what you choose first will eventually go up to +3 levels and your wizard caster level level will never be down by more than 1.

If you take leadership at 7th level you can let your cohort do all the crafting leaving you with spell enhancing feats. But if you definitely want to perform your own crafting, you can easily work the feats in.

Choose what you want to be: a blaster, a controller, or a batman and use your traits and feats accordingly. for example, if you want to use metamagic, use your magical trait to drop your favorite spell's effective level by 1. Otherwise use your magical trait to boost your cleric casting level by 2 so that you will eventually have the spells of a 13th level cleric, but cast them as a 15th level character. This will max out your energy resistance spells, and several other bonuses.

[TorresGlitch]

Min-max
20stat Point buy:
Str7 dex7 con14 int18 wis16 cha7
(doesn't include any racial bonuses)

[nate lange]

i'd suggest the following changes:

race- Idyllkin aasimar, with scion of humanity racial alternative (the stat adjustment is slightly worse but there is a payoff...)
feat- 1) racial heritage [dwarf]
class levels- wizard[arcane crafter] 3/cleric [forgemaster] 1/MT 10 (here's the payoff- thanks to the racial SLA you only ever lose 1 wiz caster level and could finish casting as wiz 19/cl 11)

[Melvin the Mediocre]

nate lange wrote:

i'd suggest the following changes:

race- Idyllkin aasimar, with scion of humanity racial alternative (the stat adjustment is slightly worse but there is a payoff...)
feat- 1) racial heritage [dwarf]
class levels- wizard[arcane crafter] 3/cleric [forgemaster] 1/MT 10 (here's the payoff- thanks to the racial SLA you only ever lose 1 wiz caster level and could finish casting as wiz 19/cl 11)

Okay, it took me a minute to follow you. You are using the race to qualify for the 2nd level divine so you can only dip one level in cleric but stay in the forgemaster class.

I would suggest against it. I don't think the benefits of 1 level of forgemaster will come close to making up for only 1 domain, and not having a bonus to int OR wis (let alone both.)

But it does give him another option.

[lantzkev]

just remember you can replace any of the SLA with corruption resistance, which is a lvl 2 divine... so pick any of the races you want and just swap it with corruption resistance... top it off, youre now immune to the added dmg for being good vs a anti paladin etc =D

[TorresGlitch]

A well balanced Mystic Theurge could have a stat array of:
Str: 7 Dex: 10 Con 14 Int19 Wis18 Cha7 (includes: Samsaran *+2wis, +2int)

[Rory]

Rivi of the Two Worlds

Background For Fun:

Rivi was found in the depths of the earth by a family of deep gnomes. They were astonished and wary of the babe with horns in his head. The matriarch of the family, an accomplished sage of the gnome community, took Rivi before the village council. After a lengthy debate, the council decided, or was forced by the sage, to gamble and allow the child to live. The requirements were that the matriarch sage would care for Rivi as if it were her own, and send him to learn at their temple to Nivi Rhombodazzle, the gnome deity.

Rivi grew up under the tender guidance of his gnomish mother. She taught him the ways of magic, and how to summon creatures to assist in life as well as summoning them quickly in defense. Rivi also learned the ways of the gnomish community through the temple. Although his teachings were focused on the community aspect, Rivi had a knack for trickery as well.

The gamble the gnomes took to adopt Rivi paid off when a fiery salamander wandered into their village underground. The gnomes were no match for the fiery aura and were going to have to abandon their village. Rivi stepped up and confronted the salamander. Even though his clothes burned, his skin remained untouched. Rivi summoned forth the largest pony he could muster and fed the salamander. The salamander was satiated and left the village. The village cheered and praised Rivi for his bravery and deed!

However, as gambles sometimes go, the next day, the fiery salamander brought back more of his kin. The gnome village had no choice to be abandoned and the gnomes fled. Rivi's mother died in the attack. Many of the people blamed Rivi for causing a swarm of salamanders to descend on their village, cursing his name with no end. Rivi was forced out of the village.

And so, Rivi wanders the surface of the world, away from the depths of the earth and his gnomish community.

S: 10 D: 16 C: 14 I: 16 W: 14 Ch: 8 (20 pt basic teifling)

Level 1: Wizard (Conjuration Specialist / Teleportation Subschool)
Level 2: Cleric of Nivi Rhombodazzle (Trickery, Community)
Level 3: Wizard
Level 4: Mystic Theurge
Level 5: Mystic Theurge

Traits:
Magical Lineage? (+2 CL for wizard)
Reactionary (+2 Init)

Feats:
Spell Focus Conjuration (wizard 1) <--- Built for PFS
Acadamae Graduate (1st)
Augment Summoning (3rd)

Strengths:
- standard action summons via Acadamae Graduate (assume he is always fatigued)
- standard action remove fatigue via Community domain (3+WIS per day)
- gains new arcane spells on even levels
- gains new divine spells on odd levels

[Orfamay Quest]

lantzkev wrote:

just remember you can replace any of the SLA with corruption resistance, which is a lvl 2 divine... so pick any of the races you want and just swap it with corruption resistance... top it off, youre now immune to the added dmg for being good vs a anti paladin etc =D

Can you unpack this, please? Who gets corruption resistance as an SLA, and how?

[nate lange]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Can you unpack this, please? Who gets corruption resistance as an SLA, and how?

any aasimar with the Incorruptible racial alternative does (and it satisfies the need for a 2nd level SLA for early entry)

@Melvin- i just did that because i had the impression that the OP really wanted forgemaster... which, even with only 1 level, has something interesting options that are better flavor for the kind of character that was described (and honestly, for a dip, runeforger seems like a much better ability than channel)

[Rory]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Who gets corruption resistance as an SLA, and how?

Aasimars (the race) get the spell-like ability "Daylight" as a racial ability. They can take an alternate racial trait to make this spell-like ability be "Corruption Resistance", which is a 2nd level divine spell.

[Sir Dante]

Rory wrote:

Rivi of the Two Worlds

** spoiler omitted **

S: 10 D: 16 C: 14 I: 16 W: 14 Ch: 8 (20 pt basic teifling)

Level 1: Wizard...

How does that work? Since to gain a mystic theurge prestige class level, you must be able to cast 2nd level spells of a cleric and a wizard.

[Orfamay Quest]

Sir Dante wrote:

How does that work? Since to gain a mystic theurge prestige class level, you must be able to cast 2nd level spells of a cleric and a wizard.

As per a new FAQ, spell-like abilities count as "the ability to cast spells" of the appropriate level.

Cleric with Trickery domain has a 2nd level divine SLA. Tieflings have a racial CLA that counts as second level arcane. Ergo, a tiefling cleric with the Trickery domain already qualifies as casting 2nd level spells of both categories.

[Anzyr]

Honestly, outside of having more spells per day, (and I guess earlier access to both lists), A Half-Elf Oracle with Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) is going to have access to all the lists that the Mystic Theurge has and access to 9ths in both.

[Gray Warden]

Sorry to necropost -almost- 3 years later, but I'm here looking for a MT-crafter build, and others may as well in future.

To clarify, for several reasons this build doesn't work now:
- having a spell-like ability counts as being able to cast THAT SPECIFIC spell. It doesn't count as being able to cast -all- spells. So, no Oread/Tiefling/Aasimar/Other shenanigas for early entry;
- Forgemaster is limited to the Artifice only domain, NO SUBDOMAINS. So you must stick with the depressing 1d6 touch against things.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jason Wedel]

Ok, requirement is to eb able to cast a level 2 divine spell as a divine spell. No class has "unlimited casting" so we of only need one 2nd level spell, but it must be a spell not a SLA. This is my understanding of the rules.

My personal favorite way would be to use a Discovery called Faith Magic, for the cost of one feat & a 1 level dip you can get MT

It is NOT early entry BTW, you are actually delayed entry this way by two levels, but you only loose 1 level of wizard spell progression.

It looks like this, 7 levels of wizard (Gets you 4th level spells, Faith Magic is -2 spell levels for a single DIVINE spell cast), 1 level of Divine caster of choice, then 10 levels of MT, last two levels should be wizard