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So it says that if you are invisible you ignore your opponents dexterity to ac. Would I be right in thinking this makes your opponent flat footed and subject to sneak attacks? If if does, what about the second attack against the enemy? After the first attack they will have an idea of where you are (is that only if the attack hits?) so do they regain their dex bonus to ac?
Assuming this does mean their flat footed, would that effect an arcane tricksters surprise spells? So could I use invisible thief to go invisible and then, since I can ignore my opponents dex to ac consider them flat footed for a fireball or something?
ok, thank you. To simplify my questions then:
1. If I made a full round attack while invisible, would I get the sneak attack bonus to all attacks, or just the first one?
2. Does being invisible make it so that I can apply my sneak attack damage to a spell with the arcane tricksters surprise spell ability.
Most times the question comes up, the assumption is that you only get the benefit of invisibility for the attacks for which invisible - meaning the first only if you have a regular invisibility spell in effect, all if you are using improved invisibility and are thus not negating the invisibility.
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I just learned of a Monk weapon from Ultimate Combat (although of course I can't remember its name now) that can be used to give your opponent the flat-footed condition until the end of the round. I think it requires something akin to a trip maneuver to pull off.
A Magus/Monk/Rogue/Arcane Trickster might have fun with it...
Flat footed is a specific condition and being invisible does not render an opponent flat-footed. However, being invisible means the opponent is unaware and unable to react which does allow for sneak attack to be made. Unless you have greater invisibility you will only get one sneak attack out of the round.
As noted earlier, Surprise Spell requires Flat-footed specifically. So it will only be available at the start of combat if an enemy has yet to act, unless you have feats that will allow you to cause the flat-footed condition.
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I just learned of a Monk weapon from Ultimate Combat (although of course I can't remember its name now) that can be used to give your opponent the flat-footed condition until the end of the round. I think it requires something akin to a trip maneuver to pull off.
A Magus/Monk/Rogue/Arcane Trickster might have fun with it...
FAQ'd. This comes up often enough and is something not 100% obvious from rules despite having major relevance to gameplay for a Core Class, it needs a real FAQ answer from Paizo.
The rules are clear. People just assume that flat-footed and denied dex are the same until it is explained to them. Once it is explained I have not seen anyone continue to argue the point. No FAQ is needed.
Yeah I will admit I used to make the same mistake until it was pointed out to me.
edit: I did not really understand what the flat-footed condition meant and I assumed it only meant you did not have dex to AC at the time I misunderstood.
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Plenty of FAQ's are trivially derivable from the rules if you're half way competent.
If you ignore FAQs-as-Errata, which should technically not be FAQs,
then one is left with FAQ which are not technically needed...
Those nonetheless fulfill a purpose for players who may not be rules experts,
but who are just approaching the game with a normal level of English undestanding and assumption/preconceptions.
There's a whole host of FAQs which just de-entangle the RAW from assumptions people might make but aren't the intended interpretation.
If a substantial portion of the player base (and PFS GMs in particular) can bring their actual gameplay in line with how it's actually intended to be played, that is a prime case to have a FAQ.
I see this topic come up again and again, so that seems to qualify as "frequent".
It is a common mistake just like there are many other common mistakes by people until things are explain to them. Another one is that people think that being paralyzed means you don't get a reflex save. I see that just as much as I see this one.
Frequently mistaken does not = FAQ worthy.
Not written clearly enough so that there is room for disagreement by reasonable people= FAQ worthy.
People will still get this one wrong until corrected on the boards. Putting in the FAQ wont help because most people don't look there first, and they won't look there second because one it is shown that you can lose your dex to AC without being flat-footed and that flat-footed is a specific condition they let it go.
Maybe think of it as flat footed being a "more severe" condition than simply "denied Dex to AC" because it does that, but also some other things.
Sneak attack works when an opponent is denied dex. Which means it would always work against a flat footed opponent.
The "Reasonable Person" standard is a difficult standard. I might find it reasonable to do something that you feel is completely unreasonable. Even the courts are starting to question this standard.
As a "Reasonable Person" I don't think you need hands to use Armor Spikes, which state, you don't need hands. Yet if you use your hands to attack with a Two Handed Weapon at level 1, you cannot use Armor Spikes to make a second attack via Two-Weapon Fighting.
This game OFTEN does not follow the "Reasonable Person" standard and needs clarification. FAQ is for when people "Frequently Ask a Question" whether they are often right or wrong doesn't matter.
Enough about hands, we were talking about foots...
Flat-Footed is defined as before a character gets to act. Yet, even after a character can act, that character can be flat-footed again! (Feat: Shattered Defenses) How is that possible? A "Reasonable Person" would realize it is not possible. So somewhere, Flat-Footed DOES NOT just mean before a character gets to act.
Now, if you dissect "flat-footed" we find it has two effects. 1) The flat-footed individual does not benefit from a dexterity bonus to his AC. 2) The individual cannot make Attacks of Opportunity.
So, if someone invisible is attacking you, you cannot 1) benefit from a dexterity bonus to AC or 2) make Attacks of Opportunity towards the invisible person.
Therefore, while quite likely incorrect, it is clearly "Reasonable" to say that an individual is flat-footed in regards to attacks from invisible enemies as all the effects are equal and as we have previously established that the need to be "before on acts" is not universal.
The "Reasonable Person" standard is a difficult standard. I might find it reasonable to do something that you feel is completely unreasonable. Even the courts are starting to question this standard.
As a "Reasonable Person" I don't think you need hands to use Armor Spikes, which state, you don't need hands. Yet if you use your hands to attack with a Two Handed Weapon at level 1, you cannot use Armor Spikes to make a second attack via Two-Weapon Fighting.
This game OFTEN does not follow the "Reasonable Person" standard and needs clarification. FAQ is for when people "Frequently Ask a Question" whether they are often right or wrong doesn't matter.
Enough about hands, we were talking about foots...
Flat-Footed is defined as before a character gets to act. Yet, even after a character can act, that character can be flat-footed again! (Feat: Shattered Defenses) How is that possible? A "Reasonable Person" would realize it is not possible. So somewhere, Flat-Footed DOES NOT just mean before a character gets to act.
Now, if you dissect "flat-footed" we find it has two effects. 1) The flat-footed individual does not benefit from a dexterity bonus to his AC. 2) The individual cannot make Attacks of Opportunity.
So, if someone invisible is attacking you, you cannot 1) benefit from a dexterity bonus to AC or 2) make Attacks of Opportunity towards the invisible person.
Therefore, while quite likely incorrect, it is clearly "Reasonable" to say that an individual is flat-footed in regards to attacks from invisible enemies as all the effects are equal and as we have previously established that the need to be "before on acts" is not universal.
It is not difficult in this case.
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Flat-Footed is defined as before a character gets to act. Yet, even after a character can act, that character can be flat-footed again! (Feat: Shattered Defenses) How is that possible? A "Reasonable Person" would realize it is not possible. So somewhere, Flat-Footed DOES NOT just mean before a character gets to act.
Now, if you dissect "flat-footed" we find it has two effects. 1) The flat-footed individual does not benefit from a dexterity bonus to his AC. 2) The individual cannot make Attacks of Opportunity.
So, if someone invisible is attacking you, you cannot 1) benefit from a dexterity bonus to AC or 2) make Attacks of Opportunity towards the invisible person.
Therefore, while quite likely incorrect, it is clearly "Reasonable" to say that an individual is flat-footed in regards to attacks from invisible enemies as all the effects are equal and as we have previously established that the need to be "before on acts" is not universal.
Flat-footed is not defined as "before a character gets to act," it is defined as "unable to react normally to the situation." Mechanically, the character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
"A character who has not yet acted during a combat" is given as a cause of the flat-footed condition. It does not specify that it is the only cause, allowing for the existence of the seven-branched sword weapon, stag's helm magic item, or Shatter Defenses feat.
Also, "if A (flat-footed) then B (denied Dex to AC) and C (can't make AoOs)" does not mean "if B and C then A."
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Flat-Footed is defined as before a character gets to act. Yet, even after a character can act, that character can be flat-footed again! (Feat: Shattered Defenses) How is that possible? A "Reasonable Person" would realize it is not possible. So somewhere, Flat-Footed DOES NOT just mean before a character gets to act.
Now, if you dissect "flat-footed" we find it has two effects. 1) The flat-footed individual does not benefit from a dexterity bonus to his AC. 2) The individual cannot make Attacks of Opportunity.
So, if someone invisible is attacking you, you cannot 1) benefit from a dexterity bonus to AC or 2) make Attacks of Opportunity towards the invisible person.
Therefore, while quite likely incorrect, it is clearly "Reasonable" to say that an individual is flat-footed in regards to attacks from invisible enemies as all the effects are equal and as we have previously established that the need to be "before on acts" is not universal.
Flat-footed is not defined as "before a character gets to act," it is defined as "unable to react normally to the situation." Mechanically, the character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
"A character who has not yet acted during a combat" is given as a cause of the flat-footed condition. It does not specify that it is the only cause, allowing for the existence of the seven-branched sword weapon, stag's helm magic item, or Shatter Defenses feat.
Also, "if A (flat-footed) then B (denied Dex to AC) and C (can't make AoOs)" does not mean "if B and C then A."
So, let me consider this: A = B & C, but B & C =/= A?
Nah, fails the simple test of comprehensibility.
So, therefore, having an FAQ explain th edifference between being flatfooted, and losing your Dex to AC & not being able to take AoOs against the same target, is a worthwhile FAQ.
Is a paralyzed target flatfooted?
Now, obviously, flatfooted doesn't alway smean you are paralyzed.
How about a blind target?
Loses Dex to AC, yep.
Can it take AoOs? Nope.
All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character.
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
So, is a blinded person always considered flatfooted, or does he lose the flatfooted condition in some manner?
So, I think, overall, it would be worthwhile to get the proper definitions of flatfooted and denied Dex to AC out there.
I think that it is as Wraithstrike said...
Its a pretty common mixup all the same, but Flat-Footed is indeed a very specific Condition. Just because being blinded or pinned can confer similar effects does not mean that those are the same condition, and once that gets pointed out, most people are cool.
Flat-footed, as it turns out, is actually pretty rare. There are only a few specific things that can confer that Condition.
Target has not acted in combat yet.
Shatter Defenses
Catch off-guard
Flowing Monk's AoOs
The Helpless condition
Probably others that I am not thinking of right now... but the point is that Flat-Footed is a specific term regardless of how common the consequences of that condition might be found elsewhere.
I don't see where blinded prevents AoO's, the only issue is the 50% miss chance.How about a blind target?
Loses Dex to AC, yep.
Can it take AoOs? Nope.
The miss chance comes from total concealment, which also prevents AoO's.