so do you enjoy playing rocket tag?
Oddly enough, I have mixed feelings. Long combats can quickly turn into a drag, short combats can be anti-climactic. My worst fear is insta-gibbing PCs, because I feel like that takes away a lot of the thrill in the game if you don't get a chance to react or defend yourself. There's a big difference between a moment where you say "oh crap!" and "Oops, I'm dead...", and enemy NPCs who die quickly can be anti-climactic and the game doesn't allow me to create a juggernaut very well, which is what you might expect a dragon or some such to be. Something important to remember is that I never actually try for rocket tag, so if it happens it happens naturally. I also happened to think combat in dnd can be pretty boring, and prefer the roleplaying portion, so I'm not particularly peeved by its existence in games, but I think the combat and scaling as a whole could be improved(in particular, magic item treadmill needs a boot).
I don't think it adds to the game or is enjoyable itself if that's what your asking.
@Ilja - The difference is one is specified by a Spell. If there was a spell that said "The King you attack with it may seek revenge." I might indeed argue that.
So your argument is that because the spell states that the bound creature gets pissed, no-one else can get pissed? And if there was a rule saying "if you attack someone, they might get pissed", then no-one else would get pissed when you attack someone?
That doesn't make any sense.
*takes a position*
All evidence to the contrary is anecdotal or purely theoretical.
Clearly rocket tag is inevitable-with-the-mechanics/impossible-with-the-mechanics.
*takes a position*
All evidence to the contrary is anecdotal or purely theoretical.
Clearly rocket tag is inevitable-with-the-mechanics/impossible-with-the-mechanics.
I disagree/concur with this statement.
Pathfinder encourages different encounter resolution methods at different levels of play. The problem is that the method for high levels is not in any way suggested or hinted at in lower level games.
I have a hypothesis: if your primary focus in playing Pathfinder is doing combat encounters, you will find high level play insufficiently diverse.
By the time you're high level, gone are the days of "will we survive?" and even "I reckon we can beat this". You have entered the realm of "we are going to win".
This is not a failure of the game mechanics. It is, I believe, an intended consequence of them. Every level you gain, the more powerful you become, until you reach a point where you are powerful enough to handle anything that comes your way.
At high levels, combat encounters should take second string to the interactions of the characters in the world.
I'm not attempting to advocate heavy-duty roleplaying as "the right way to play", I love a good combat encounter as much as the next guy, but as a GM I've reached the conclusion that "situations" work better than "encounters". If the players decide to fight, that's their choice. But except for very specific scenes that I want to be fights, I won't push towards combat. It has to be the players' choice.
I really don't think the game mechanics "break down". I just think that the expectations of the players and GMs are out of sync with what the mechanics are pushing them towards.
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Pathfinder encourages different encounter resolution methods at different levels of play. The problem is that the method for high levels is not in any way suggested or hinted at in lower level games.
Look at that hard work put into those social skills. Truly a marvel that will keep us all entertained for ages! .
Pathfinder encourages different encounter resolution methods at different levels of play. The problem is that the method for high levels is not in any way suggested or hinted at in lower level games.Look at that hard work put into those social skills. Truly a marvel that will keep us all entertained for ages! [dice=Diplomacy]1d20 - 2.
There are puzzles too.
I disagree/concur with this statement.*takes a position*
All evidence to the contrary is anecdotal or purely theoretical.
Clearly rocket tag is inevitable-with-the-mechanics/impossible-with-the-mechanics.
Oh hey, quantum debate! I'll get out my waveform dictionary and spatial-foam rules guide.
There are puzzles too.Pathfinder encourages different encounter resolution methods at different levels of play. The problem is that the method for high levels is not in any way suggested or hinted at in lower level games.Look at that hard work put into those social skills. Truly a marvel that will keep us all entertained for ages! [dice=Diplomacy]1d20 - 2.
Well the joke is that the skill system leaves much to be desired. Encouraging is one thing, limiting is another. Depends a lot on how you run puzzles, but ideally having skills/spells can only help, and this game doesn't heavily encourage as much as discourage that with limited resources/access.
Pathfinder encourages different encounter resolution methods at different levels of play. The problem is that the method for high levels is not in any way suggested or hinted at in lower level games.Look at that hard work put into those social skills. Truly a marvel that will keep us all entertained for ages! [dice=Diplomacy]1d20 - 2.
i kind of agree with chemlak, but i think you misubderstood (or you didnt and then i dont agree with hir). Iys not due to skills - you have those at level 1 - but rather about high-level game-changig spells. As has often been stated, many high-level spells and abilities can completely bypass most fights. Due to this, at high levels issues are less prone to necessarily be solved by force unless consciously designed so that you have to fight. Thus, high-level strategies often involve more thoughts of "what spell can we use to solve issue X" than "we have to kill Y to solve X, how do we do that most effectively?
If the issue is that someone they need info from has been kidnapped, say. At 3rd level it might ve a local priest and the party has to go beat up bandits, and beating up bandits is pretty much the only reasonable solution.
At level 15, it might be the royal spy whos been taken to a fortress on the elemental plane of water. Now the party has plenty of options; going through a portal and assaultibg the fortress, or try yo get enough info to planeshift/tele in and out and snatch the spy without a fight, or get the spy killed and try to reach her in whatever plane her soul ends up in (or use a scroll of true resurrection), or get a scroll of wish to snatch her from there, try to get the true name of a guardian or two and planar bind them to get them to aid her in an escape, etc etc. There are counters to these of course that need to be researched, but you get the point.
At level one, most situations are solved by a physical assault (sometimes with a portion being skill-based), at high levels solutions are much more fluid.
You definitely didn't misunderstand me, Ilja.
You definitely didn't misunderstand me, Ilja.
You mean you didn't say, "for high level play be a caster or GTFO"?
I wonder how related to group size this is. My group does not usually get into high level play and I wouldn't call anything we do as "rocket tag." Our encounters generally run about 5-10 rounds with climatic encounter can run 15-20 rounds. Over the years, however, our group has whittled down to usually 3-4 players and the DM so it doesn't take a whole lotta time to go around the table. I could easily see a game with twice as many players (I have often seen people talk about having 6 or 7 or more players) could get bogged down with a drawn out combat. Not to mention the added resources from having that many PCs.
You definitely didn't misunderstand me, Ilja.You mean you didn't say, "for high level play be a caster or GTFO"?
That would be a manifestly dull game, IMO.
I have a whole treatise on high-level play in the works, but the short version is this:
Combat gets boring once the game reaches "the PCs always win" levels. Encounters need to be built around non-dice-based choices to keep them interesting.
Let the bad guy escape, or stop the orphanage burning down.
Rescue the princess, or help her elope.
Kill hundreds of demons, or help them escape the slavery of a demon lord.
That last one was in my last session. The paladin had a bit of a rough time with it.
Combat could be a feature at any time, but trying to treat the game as an exercise in calculating dice modifiers becomes almost pointless at high levels.
Creative problems and creative solutions are where the high level game is.
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Why does the math in pathfinder "break down" at higher levels?
Because of the Devil!
sorry, post 666, it just had to be said.
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I haven't ran a game into high levels yet with pathfinder. In 3.5 I did take my group to level 22. By then the prime material plane was a place to visit relatives on your way to the first layer of hell to find a portal to a rogue demi gods realm to stop it from doing something horrible.
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There are spell caster builds that could inflict in excess of 60d20+135 damage reliably at (actually before) level 20, and God forbid the source of this damage happens to crit. So to say spell flingers can't keep up with melee is a bit of misinformation, though it is considerably more difficult to concoct these insane builds. Plus you're very limited in how often you can do it.
There are spell caster builds that could inflict in excess of 60d20+135 damage reliably at (actually before) level 20, and God forbid the source of this damage happens to crit. So to say spell flingers can't keep up with melee is a bit of misinformation, though it is considerably more difficult to concoct these insane builds. Plus you're very limited in how often you can do it.
I only need to use empowered battering blast once... But I hit that guy six times just for the fun of it. Did you see how far he flew!?*
Your limited, but at the same time there are a lot of options and ways to go about it and its not always exclusive(metamagic is easily shared, and rods are cool). If your okay with ditching D6s for debilitation and 'my as well be dead' type abilities, you'll have plenty of options even without metamagic, and with metamagic(dazing comes to mind), you'll only have more options and more numbers at your disposal.
*A 20th level battering blast fires four blasts that do 5D6, empowered raises that to six shots that do 7D6. You also perform a bulrush with at least a +70 to CMB and roll six times. Can still be mixed with other metamgic for extra effect too.
There are spell caster builds that could inflict in excess of 60d20+135 damage reliably at (actually before) level 20, and God forbid the source of this damage happens to crit. So to say spell flingers can't keep up with melee is a bit of misinformation, though it is considerably more difficult to concoct these insane builds. Plus you're very limited in how often you can do it."Very limited in how often you can do it" sounds like you can't keep up, because the melee sorts can do their hundreds of points of damage every round.
Well, almost true. The melee guys can pour out hundreds of damage if their foes stay in melee range. Those full attacks aren't always the easiest to pull off, and unfortunately not everyone gets a way to pull them off consistently.
Yes a rogue in the right situation can do more damage than meteor swarm. (haste+flank+opportunist at 20 = 5 sneak attacks for like 11d6+20 damage each). A monk can average 35 damage per hit without power attack (same damage as 10d6), but a fighter still puts them all to shame. Problem is actually being able to pull off a full attack or in the Barbars case getting close enough to pounce.
Not that meteor swarm is a metric for single target damage, since the spell is built around taking out armies.
or in the Barbars case getting close enough to pounce.
At 80 feet on average, the barbarian usually doesn't have much to worry about with distance as much as things in the way.
Most reliable martial I've had is an archer.
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As others have pointed out, the fixed components end up swamping the D20. This is why the epic level rules in 3.0 just had attacks and saves go up by +1 per 2 levels. 4E just does that from the beginning: You get a fixed bonus to a couple of saves (well, "defenses" because 4E models fort/reflex/will as defenses that people roll attacks against) from your class, and then that's your fixed bonus. So if your will save is 3 points better than someone else's at 1st level, it'll still be 3 points better than theirs at 20th, meaning that for threats of a reasonable level for you, you'll be making it 65% of the time compared to their 50% regardless of level.
Unfortunately, that is also a problem, since you never actually get "better." The reality is, you have to balance a game toward a particular "high" level, otherwise you get either futility or scaling problems. That is why d20 style games have and must publish more rules for high level games, because the power band isn't right. You have to adjust.
Some of the nice things Mythic Adventuers does are dole out some immunities and make you potentially immune to dying, which is really where "mythic" (including high level play level) needs to go.
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There are spell caster builds that could inflict in excess of 60d20+135 damage reliably at (actually before) level 20, and God forbid the source of this damage happens to crit. So to say spell flingers can't keep up with melee is a bit of misinformation, though it is considerably more difficult to concoct these insane builds. Plus you're very limited in how often you can do it."Very limited in how often you can do it" sounds like you can't keep up, because the melee sorts can do their hundreds of points of damage every round.
And 60d20 is... rather a lot, I'd be interested in seeing how it's accomplished. ... Are you assuming you have a large pool of targets, or is this single-target?
That isn't taking target number into account at all. It's simply what you would roll, though that particular spell IS single target. You could also conceivably cast fireball at 15d6+45; higher if you choose to apply a certain other metamagic in addition to empowering it.
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If the game is designed to keep you at a constant 65% accuracy rate or whatever, then it doesn't really make sense for you to fight weaker monsters. They aren't worth much XP and aren't much of a threat, either. From a storytelling standpoint, I like the idea of a swordsman becoming so good he basically never misses, as a counterpart to the wizard who can call meteors down from the sky. I like the idea that a high level character's offense might be so strong it can be matched only by a similarly optimized NPC. A high HD giant's Fortitude save, a master archer's to-hit bonus, a rogue's Stealth, these abilities become nearly as strong and absolute as an invisibility spell. If you think about movies, that's how things are actually played, with invisibility being defeatable by a skilled and canny attacker, and a stealthy character being so agile they are practically invisible to normal people.
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I think a better question would be "Does the math in Pathfinder break down at higher levels?"
I think a better question would be "Does the math in Pathfinder break down at higher levels?"
Is the quibble over the phrase "break down"? It's easily seen that due to different rates of scaling (high vs low BAB, good vs bad save progression, putting ranks in a skill every level vs not putting any ranks in a skill), as level increases, the gap between those who are good at something and those who are bad at something widens. Hence, success chances are fundamentally different at low vs high levels. At 1st level, if a bard with max ranks in stealth has an 80% chance to sneak past the guard dog, the alchemist with no ranks in stealth has about a 60% chance to sneak past. At 20th level, if this bard has an 80% chance to sneak past the mythic guard dog, this alchemist has a 0% chance to succeed. Spells, class abilities, etc. only widen this gap between the cans and the cannots.
You can say that this disconnect between low and high levels doesn't represent a break down of the system, but it's simple fact that it exists.
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The math changes. It doesn't break down, although some GMs do. :)
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I have seen it represented on this message board and especially elsewhere that the "math" of Pathfinder "breaks down" at the "higher levels." I've seen this repeated without explanation.
My question is: specifically which parts of the game stop working as intended at higher levels? Is there really a specific issue or is this one of those things that gets repeated without any real substance to it?
A few myths concerning high levels.
1. Damage scales faster than defenses
This is false. The game favors defenses heavily. Defenses are cheaper and more plentiful. Constitution modifiers are multiplied per hit die, while static modifiers are static. +3 from Strength gives +3 to hit and damage on each attack. +3 from Con gives +60 HP with 20 HD. You'd have to hit 10 times to make up the difference. It's not remarkable for even characters to have +6 or better Con modifiers by 20th level, with upwards to +12 being possible for PCs.
NPC-classed characters have lower mods, but they also tend to have twice the HD based on the CR guidelines found in the bestiary. Which means a CR 20 gnoll warrior has about 40 HD (2 racial HD + 38 warrior HD).
In addition to players being able to get very high ACs in core alone, you also have access to things like damage reduction, energy resistances, and concealment benefits. Concealment effects prevent sneak attacks and provide a passive % chance to avoid incoming attacks, fortification can negate critical hits to boot.
It is critical to emphasize defenses at high levels, because XP budgets place you at a huge disadvantage in terms of action economy. The kinds of creatures you can encounter grouped together with a CR 16 XP budget in nightmarish. A CR 20 encounter can involve a demon horde. A CR 25 encounter would look like the gods were fighting.
Further, damage vs investment is never so favorable as it is at 1st level. At 1st level a warrior with a greatsword is statistically likely to fell any CR-appropriate foe in a single attack. That means that you can move + attack and drop 1 enemy. At high levels, unless you have pounce, you are very unlikely to move + attack and fell anything.
2. Rocket Tag
Rocket tag is a self fulfilling prophecy. A lot of people tell you that offense is the best defense. People take this to heart and emphasize killing power over everything else. In turn, this leaves their defenses abysmal in comparison. This creates "rocket tag". NPCs tend to have moderate defenses to begin with (they simply cannot afford the types of defenses PCs have) so they can quickly die to PCs speccing offense hard, but because such PCs have poor defenses their moderate-to-strong offense results in dead PCs.
If your PCs are more apt to pad defenses with their resources, rocket tag is not an issue. A wizard can reach around AC 42 in core. A martial can reach ACs in the upper 50s to low 60s. Mean while, the most powerful creature in the bestiary - the Solar - has a +35 to hit on its best attack.
This is before things like 50% miss chances, resistances to critical hits, etc.
3. Saving Throws vs DCs
The biggest thing that breaks down at high levels is saving throws vs DCs. The real problem here is the poor saving throw progression. While good saves progress at 2 + 1/2 your level, poor progresses at 0 + 1/3 your level. In general this isn't gamebreaking in the 1-20 play, but post-20th it can begin to break down pretty quickly.
For a weak save, you have +6 base at top level. Even with a +6 ability modifier (not difficult) and a +5 resistance, you're looking at +17 to your save. The average save DC at 20th level is around 30-34, which means you'll succeed on a roll of 17+. EDIT: This is one of the reasons additional padding of defenses is recommended. Things like spell immunity, death ward, or freedom of movement are staples against things at these levels.
Saving throws are stacked in the defender's favor. Enemies generally have a base DC of 10 + 1/2 their level + their key ability + other. You have 10 + base save + your key ability + resistance bonuses + other, and in general even your weak save should tilt you into the good-end of things at these levels. Especially if you've taken feats like Iron Will or done some positive multiclassing.
However, as levels scale past 20th, the gap widens and your poor save will end up being an achilles heel. Ideally, for post-20th play, a smoother progression would be used. For this reason in my own d20 rewrite I'm working on, all saving throws scale at +1/2 level, because I enjoy post-20th play.
4. BAB Scaling
Hitting most enemies will not be an issue for high level 3/4 BAB characters. Some believe this is a problem because if your 3/4 BAB character has no issues hitting enemies reliably then there is a problem because 1/1 BAB classes like Barbarians will hit 95% of the time all the time.
That's not a problem. It's a boon for the martial classes. Thanks to feats like Power Attack and Deadly Aim, excess accuracy can be converted into bonus damage. This is one of the places where martials shine at higher levels. It's nothing for a martial to have a +45-50 bonus to hit with their favorite attacks at 20th level. When a Solar has 44 AC, that puts them very much in the area of auto-hit. At this point, Power Attack / Deadly Aim can be used to convert 6 points of accuracy into +12 to +18 damage per hit, or they can forgo such options and ensure that they have maximum accuracy but less damage per hit.
This continues post-20th as excess BAB just converts into additional damage via these feats. This works on both sides of the fence. Monsters with excessive amounts of BAB (such as creatures with tons of NPC levels or racial HD) will rely on these feats to keep their damage relevant. For example, a 40HD NPC warrior has a +40 BAB. With a two-handed weapon that converts to +28 base to hit with a +36 to damage.
5. Opposed Checks
The largest perceived disconnect comes in the form of opposed checks such as Stealth vs Perception. This is an area where splat-material can seriously hurt the game. In general, having equal opportunity to buff both sides of a contest results in a fairer situation. However, Stealth is an example of an option that can be grossly abused at high levels due to a lot of support material for it. Effects like Hellcat Stealth, size modifiers, skill modifiers, and so forth means that some enemies may be effectively invisible forever.
This can also be somewhat troublesome with high HD enemies who have a lot of skill ranks. For example, using our 40 HD CR 20 gnoll-warrior NPC as an example, he could easily have a +40 Perception check, which means all but the most stealthy of creatures will go unnoticed by him.
For a weak save, you have +6 base at top level. Even with a +6 ability modifier (not difficult) and a +5 resistance, you're looking at +17 to your save. The average save DC at 20th level is around 30-34, which means you'll succeed on a roll of 7+.I think you mean you need 17+ to succed.
I did. Apparently I typo'd the 1. XD
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If your PCs are more apt to pad defenses with their resources, rocket tag is not an issue. A wizard can reach around AC 42 in core. A martial can reach ACs in the upper 50s to low 60s. Mean while, the most powerful creature in the bestiary - the Solar - has a +35 to hit on its best attack.
Why do martials hit low 60s and wizards hit 42? Ideally the only difference between them should be, excluding magic, the difference between actual armor bonuses. The wizard can reach 8 at most, while celestial full plate allows 17(19 if you allow mithral, 21 with armor training, 23 for fighters with mithral) and that requires quiet a bit of dexterity to reach. Are we including combat expertise? That adds an additional five to melee.
I always though the biggest problem with cranking armor class was how it wasn't intuitive, while cranking damage is natural.
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If your PCs are more apt to pad defenses with their resources, rocket tag is not an issue. A wizard can reach around AC 42 in core. A martial can reach ACs in the upper 50s to low 60s. Mean while, the most powerful creature in the bestiary - the Solar - has a +35 to hit on its best attack.Why do martials hit low 60s and wizards hit 42? Ideally the only difference between them should be, excluding magic, the difference between actual armor bonuses. The wizard can reach 8 at most, while celestial full plate allows 17(19 if you allow mithral, 21 with armor training, 23 for fighters with mithral) and that requires quiet a bit of dexterity to reach. Are we including combat expertise? That adds an additional five to melee.
I always though the biggest problem with cranking armor class was how it wasn't intuitive, while cranking damage is natural.
By 20th level, everyone should have a +5 inherent modifier to all their ability scores because planar binding is a thing. So getting a +7 Dex isn't that difficult (14 base, +6 stat, +5 inherent = +7). Core wizard gets +8 armor, +6 shield (+5 mithral buckler), +5 natural enhancement, +5 deflection, +1 insight (ioun stone), +10 base = AC 42.
Martials tend to wear better armor and shields. I might have been unclear since I mentioned core with the wizard and then did not with martials, but +5 mithral celestial plate is the best armor for martials outside of core. +5 mithral celestial armor w/kilt is +15 armor, then +5 natural enhancement, +5 deflection, +1 insight ioun stone, likely a +7 to +8 Dexterity modifier. Then class features like Beast Totem can push ACs even higher.
Druids don't need celestial plate. Wild armor takes care of them as they can just use dragonscale wild plate and stack it with their very nice natural armor buffs they get during wild shape, which stack with the enhancement bonus to natural armor they get from magic items or barkskin spells.
While wizards tend to lack AC, they tend to make up the difference with things like stoneskin (because DR 10/adamantine is actually really good vs monster routines), concealment, and by stacking multiple enhancements. Since casting is their thing, wizards do things like wear two mithral bucklers, with one being a +1 heavy fortification, and the other being for AC. The -1 penalty on attack rolls for having the mithral bucklers is irrelevant to them.
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3. Saving Throws vs DCs
The biggest thing that breaks down at high levels is saving throws vs DCs. The real problem here is the poor saving throw progression. While good saves progress at 2 + 1/2 your level, poor progresses at 0 + 1/3 your level. In general this isn't gamebreaking in the 1-20 play, but post-20th it can begin to break down pretty quickly.For a weak save, you have +6 base at top level. Even with a +6 ability modifier (not difficult) and a +5 resistance, you're looking at +17 to your save. The average save DC at 20th level is around 30-34, which means you'll succeed on a roll of 17+. EDIT: This is one of the reasons additional padding of defenses is recommended. Things like spell immunity, death ward, or freedom of movement are staples against things at these levels.
Saving throws are stacked in the defender's favor. Enemies generally have a base DC of 10 + 1/2 their level + their key ability + other. You have 10 + base save + your key ability + resistance bonuses + other, and in general even your weak save should tilt you into the good-end of things at these levels. Especially if you've taken feats like Iron Will or done some positive multiclassing.
However, as levels scale past 20th, the gap widens and your poor save will end up being an achilles heel. Ideally, for post-20th play, a smoother progression would be used. For this reason in my own d20 rewrite I'm working on, all saving throws scale at +1/2 level, because I enjoy post-20th play.
That is a good analysis. You touched on what do about it (add some immunities and other defenses) but let me elaborate on practical things to do at CR 20+.
- Use treasure. At this CR, they come loaded. There is no reason in the world intelligent monsters shouldn't have and use things like cloaks of resistance or rings of mind shielding. And yet, those things are frequently neglected in hypotheticals.
- Iron Will, Improved Iron Will. Monsters with 24 HD have twelve feats. Iron Will is a nice patch. Improved Will is a game-changer; not only does it give you an effective boost of about +3, but it means a monster won't go down because of a single natural 1. The same thing applies to Great Fortitude, and, to an extent, Lighting Reflexes.
- The standard feat choices are fine for run-of-the-mill encounters, but for customized monsters, I don't really see things like Wind Stance, Lunge, and Step-Up often enough. Anything that changes the physical space, the action economy, or that creates cover or concealment is valuable. I'm not saying make them complicated, by any means. Keep it simple. But bake some legitimate tactics right into the stat block.
- Forget about normal. We're talking about three hundred year old swordsman, planar marauders, and King of all the Liches at this point. Templates: almost mandatory. Free, almost cheat-y abilities: almost mandatory (if you don't know how, look at Mythic Adventures for tips). Custom monsters: by no means mandatory, but not a bad idea!
- Anything CR 10+ is still useful scenery in a big fight. Adding some skeletal champion bodyguards to the lich encounter will keep the PCs honest.
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The largest perceived disconnect comes in the form of opposed checks such as Stealth vs Perception. This is an area where splat-material can seriously hurt the game. In general, having equal opportunity to buff both sides of a contest results in a fairer situation. However, Stealth is an example of an option that can be grossly abused at high levels due to a lot of support material for it. Effects like Hellcat Stealth, size modifiers, skill modifiers, and so forth means that some enemies may be effectively invisible forever.
Also known as being a bad ass Goblin. Routinely getting high 60-70s on Stealth checks at level 20. Permastealth FOREVER!
I don't think permastealth is a problem. It's just the superpower of stealth-optimized characters. Batman has permastealth.
I don't think permastealth is a problem. It's just the superpower of stealth-optimized characters. Batman has permastealth.
I dont think it is either. Its one of those things that finally comes together at high levels.
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With all these posts, it's become my personal opinion that the math doesn't "break down" at high levels, but rather there are issues that higher leveled characters should attend to. Regarding the discussion of Rocket Tag and saving throws, while it is unoptimized, these issues could be mitigated through picking up the saving throw feats (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fortitude) to bolster your weak saves. If you want to go whole hog, you could even pick up the Improved version of any of those and reroll a save once per day. It's not perfect, nor is it something you'd see in an "optimized build", but it's important to keep from falling ass over teakettle when the dice hit the table.
EDIT: DAGNABBIT! Ninja'd by Grady!
- Use treasure. At this CR, they come loaded. There is no reason in the world intelligent monsters shouldn't have and use things like cloaks of resistance or rings of mind shielding. And yet, those things are frequently neglected in hypotheticals.
How much treasure or what treasure a foe has is a variable. Unfortunately you can't give every NPC a good amount of treasure or you end up with PCs having a pile of valuable treasure of their own.
It's not perfect,
Far from it, it requires investment that probably should've been built into the system to keep any math from breaking down. Its kind of weak to say "its not broken" and "Here's a fix!".
- Use treasure. At this CR, they come loaded. There is no reason in the world intelligent monsters shouldn't have and use things like cloaks of resistance or rings of mind shielding. And yet, those things are frequently neglected in hypotheticals.How much treasure or what treasure a foe has is a variable. Unfortunately you can't give every NPC a good amount of treasure or you end up with PCs having a pile of valuable treasure of their own.
Granted, but NPCs do have a WBL count. The table on this page gives values. And if you don't want to spoil players with treasure count, NPCs wealth is usually a tad under one fifth that of a single character's WBL for any given level.
On a related note, I remember reading something somewhere that NPCs have a CR of their HD-1 if they have NPC wealth, but if they have PC wealth that CR is straight up equal to HD.
The largest perceived disconnect comes in the form of opposed checks such as Stealth vs Perception. This is an area where splat-material can seriously hurt the game. In general, having equal opportunity to buff both sides of a contest results in a fairer situation. However, Stealth is an example of an option that can be grossly abused at high levels due to a lot of support material for it. Effects like Hellcat Stealth, size modifiers, skill modifiers, and so forth means that some enemies may be effectively invisible forever.Also known as being a bad ass Goblin. Routinely getting high 60-70s on Stealth checks at level 20. Permastealth FOREVER!
Y'know when I first said this I was like, "Maybe this is an exaggeration", but then I remembered GREATER Shadow Armor.
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- Use treasure. At this CR, they come loaded. There is no reason in the world intelligent monsters shouldn't have and use things like cloaks of resistance or rings of mind shielding. And yet, those things are frequently neglected in hypotheticals.How much treasure or what treasure a foe has is a variable. Unfortunately you can't give every NPC a good amount of treasure or you end up with PCs having a pile of valuable treasure of their own.
While that may be true, an average CR 20 encounter is worth 67,000 gp. That means that a crappy amount of treasure is still in the tens of thousands of gold pieces of value. You could give a cloak of resistance +5 to every single CR 20+ encounter and still come in under the suggested awards.
It's not perfect,Far from it, it requires investment that probably should've been built into the system to keep any math from breaking down. Its kind of weak to say "its not broken" and "Here's a fix!".
Well, it's an investment. If you want to build a glass cannon, your character can be all offense and not build up their weak points at all. If you want to be more well rounded, you can spread out your resources.
Another example of shoring up defences would be taking Toughness. You don't see it in many theorycrafted builds, but it could end up being the difference between life and death even at higher levels.
It's not perfect,Far from it, it requires investment that probably should've been built into the system to keep any math from breaking down. Its kind of weak to say "its not broken" and "Here's a fix!".Well, it's an investment. If you want to build a glass cannon, your character can be all offense and not build up their weak points at all. If you want to be more well rounded, you can spread out your resources.
Another example of shoring up defences would be taking Toughness. You don't see it in many theorycrafted builds, but it could end up being the difference between life and death even at higher levels.
Well, the fact that they are supbar choices is a problem. Ideally if your optimizing or theorycrafting you only end up with a glass cannon if that's your goal, otherwise you may have failed. Your making it look like they are the problem rather than supbar choices being supbar. Don't know if that's intentional or not.