I'm sure this comes up a lot, but I'm considering running a poison-based build. What, in your opinion, is the most viable option?
Is it as simple as a Grippli Alchemist or Vishkanya Serpentine Sorcerer?
Would you mind sharing the build?
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Most powerful Poison build is a Witch with Cauldron Hex, Poison Steel and profession:chef.
With the stacking rules of Poison and the weight limit on Poison Steep you can easily make a poisonous sandwich or bag of candy with a save DC in the 30's.
Throw in a Beguiling gift spell and you can really get that poison into the target.
Also, the best part of using which is cost, unlike the rest of the builds all the witch poison is negligible in cost (how expensive is a pound of raisins?)
Most powerful Poison build is a Witch with Cauldron Hex, Poison Steel and profession:chef.
With the stacking rules of Poison and the weight limit on Poison Steep you can easily make a poisonous sandwich or bag of candy with a save DC in the 30's.
Throw in a Beguiling gift spell and you can really get that poison into the target.Also, the best part of using which is cost, unlike the rest of the builds all the witch poison is negligible in cost (how expensive is a pound of raisins?)
I'm a little confused. Can you explain how the DC stacks in this case? Since Poison Steep functions as the spell and not a traditional poison, wouldn't the save DC default to the witch's standard hex save DC?
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I'm a little confused. Can you explain how the DC stacks in this case? Since Poison Steep functions as the spell and not a traditional poison, wouldn't the save DC default to the witch's standard hex save DC?Most powerful Poison build is a Witch with Cauldron Hex, Poison Steel and profession:chef.
With the stacking rules of Poison and the weight limit on Poison Steep you can easily make a poisonous sandwich or bag of candy with a save DC in the 30's.
Throw in a Beguiling gift spell and you can really get that poison into the target.Also, the best part of using which is cost, unlike the rest of the builds all the witch poison is negligible in cost (how expensive is a pound of raisins?)
Sure, the default DC for the poison save is determined by the spell but the stacking rules enhance that.
Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison “stack,” meaning that successive doses combine to increase the poison's DC and duration.
Making your initial saving throw against a poison means stacking does not occur—the poison did not affect you and any later doses are treated independently. Likewise, if a poison has been cured or run its course (by you either making the saves or outlasting the poison's duration), stacking does not occur. However, if there is still poison active in you when you are attacked with that type of poison again, and you fail your initial save against the new dose, the doses stack. This has two effects, which last until the poisons run their course.
Increased Duration: Increase the duration of the poison by 1/2 the amount listed in its frequency entry.
Increased DC: Increase the poison's DC by +2.
These increases are cumulative (a third dose adds another 1/2 of the frequency to the duration and +2 to the DC, and so on). When affected by multiple doses of the same poison, you only make one saving throw at this higher DC when required by the frequency, rather than one saving throw against each dose of the poison.
Multiple doses do not alter the Cure condition of the Poison, and meeting that Cure condition ends all doses of the poison.
Applied contact poisons and injury poisons cannot inflict more than one dose of poison per weapon at a time (because the poison on the weapon only lasts for one successful attack before it wears off). Inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once.
I've bolded the important parts showing, unlike most injury or contact poisons, these stack on initial exposure and there is no limit on how high it stacks.
So, for example, let's make a sandwich 2 slices of bread, 2 slices of tomato, 3 slices of meat and a slice of onion and steep each piece separately. The first slice of bread sets the DC (10+int bonus+1/2 witch spell level) and each extra piece increases that DC by 2. Since there are 7 additional steeped pieces that kicks the DC up by 14 making the absolute minimum DC of 29.
ALSO, the duration of this spell is only 6 rounds but the stacking rules increase it by 3 so it's now at 27 rounds of poison for 1D3 Con damage per round.
All this for the cost of a cheap sandwhich and 1 hour of your time. Beats any alchemist poison crafter in the game.
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I'm a little confused. Can you explain how the DC stacks in this case? Since Poison Steep functions as the spell and not a traditional poison, wouldn't the save DC default to the witch's standard hex save DC?Most powerful Poison build is a Witch with Cauldron Hex, Poison Steel and profession:chef.
With the stacking rules of Poison and the weight limit on Poison Steep you can easily make a poisonous sandwich or bag of candy with a save DC in the 30's.
Throw in a Beguiling gift spell and you can really get that poison into the target.Also, the best part of using which is cost, unlike the rest of the builds all the witch poison is negligible in cost (how expensive is a pound of raisins?)
Sure, the default DC for the poison save is determined by the spell but the stacking rules enhance that.
...Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison “stack,” meaning that successive doses combine to increase the poison's DC and duration.
Making your initial saving throw against a poison means stacking does not occur—the poison did not affect you and any later doses are treated independently. Likewise, if a poison has been cured or run its course (by you either making the saves or outlasting the poison's duration), stacking does not occur. However, if there is still poison active in you when you are attacked with that type of poison again, and you fail your initial save against the new dose, the doses stack. This has two effects, which last until the poisons run their course.
Increased Duration: Increase the duration of the poison by 1/2 the amount listed in its frequency entry.
Increased DC: Increase the poison's DC by +2.
These increases are cumulative (a third dose adds another 1/2 of the frequency to the duration and +2 to the DC, and so on). When affected by multiple doses of the same poison, you only make one saving throw at this higher DC when required by the
Cheaper than the Alchemist? Yes.
Better than the Alchemist? No.
You're relying on a save for a first level spell that also requires you to be adjacent to the target, which for a Witch is not the best place to be.
While I didn't include this in my guide, I figured this little number was the best way to poison someone (to set them up for a kill, instead of watching them slowly have to deal with the con damage)
You can pull this off at level 6 once you pick up Poison Conversion as a discovery, which is the bread and butter of the poisoner's build. Using this, you use Drow Poison (Injury, DC 13, Unconscious for 1 minute, 75 GP) that you're making yourself to cut the cost in half, so it's 37.5 gold a dose. Now you convert all that injury poison into an inhaled poison (as many doses as you want, and consider taking the Master Alchemist feat to speed up poison creation time)wrap them all up together, and throw them at an enemy (or group of enemies) for the 10 foot burst radius of DC 31 sleep effect (for the cost of 375 GP, which is nothing to you at this point) that will put them out for 4.5 minutes, or FOREVER in CDG time.
What makes them even better is at 8th level they can take Celestial Poisons, which will allow them to do this even to evil outsiders (who do have to breathe), but sadly not undead. Still, it keeps poison as a viable option far longer against the enemies you'll be facing end game for a lot longer.
I will admit the "Doom Sandwich" was not something I knew about though, and I will be using it on my players for my new game, so kudos to you Mathwei ap Niall.
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I broke down poison-based characters in another thread. If you are playing outside of Pathfinder Society Organized Play then you may have more options, including home rules. Keep in mind that poison is tough to utilize at higher levels.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7wv?Poison-Use-in-Pathfinder-Society#1
I think a vivisectionist or a ninja with the pin point poisoner feat sound like a fun thing. Attacking i vs. Touch AC yes please.
Edit: phone is helping me spelling.
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Cheaper than the Alchemist? Yes.
Better than the Alchemist? No.
You're relying on a save for a first level spell that also requires you to be adjacent to the target, which for a Witch is not the best place to be.
While I didn't include this in my guide, I figured this little number was the best way to poison someone (to set them up for a kill, instead of watching them slowly have to deal with the con damage)
You can pull this off at level 6 once you pick up Poison Conversion as a discovery, which is the bread and butter of the poisoner's build. Using this, you use Drow Poison (Injury, DC 13, Unconscious for 1 minute, 75 GP) that you're making yourself to cut the cost in half, so it's 37.5 gold a dose. Now you convert all that injury poison into an inhaled poison (as many doses as you want, and consider taking the Master Alchemist feat to speed up poison creation time)wrap them all up together, and throw them at an enemy (or group of enemies) for the 10 foot burst radius of DC 31 sleep effect (for the cost of 375 GP, which is nothing to you at this point) that will put them out for 4.5 minutes, or FOREVER in CDG time.
What makes them even better is at 8th level they can take Celestial Poisons, which will allow them to do this even to evil outsiders (who do have to breathe), but sadly not undead. Still, it keeps poison as a viable option far longer against the enemies you'll be facing end game for a lot longer.
I will admit the "Doom Sandwich" was not something I knew about though, and I will be using it on my players for my new game, so kudos to you Mathwei ap Niall
Well 2 things, the beguiling gift spell is just an extra option and not really the point but if you want to use this in combat it's probably the easiest way. And don't forget we are a witch here, the masters of making someone fail a save. This is more of an assassin build then an in combat build.
The inhaled poison route is pretty cool but 375 GP an attack isn't cheap that adds up fast. The real issue is that 50% failure rate if the target holds their breath, that and the 100% failure rate if the target doesn't breath at all.
I'm sorry, but maybe I'm still not understanding this. I thought Poison Steep functioned as the spell. If so, how are you allowed to increase the DC as if it were a mundane poison? If I'm not mistaken, the DC should increase as you gain levels, like any other witch hex, but it just doesn't seem to work the way you're saying it does. I wish it did, but it doesn't seem to.
I'm beginning to consider a Vishkanya Vivisectionist Alchemist with the Sleep Venom feat (basically a scaling Drow poison with easy daily access) and a ton of poison-related feats/discoveries. Maybe even a viper tumor familiar?
Has anyone tried the Daggermark Poisoner?
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Well 2 things, the beguiling gift spell is just an extra option and not really the point but if you want to use this in combat it's probably the easiest way. And don't forget we are a witch here, the masters of making someone fail a save. This is more of an assassin build then an in combat build.
The inhaled poison route is pretty cool but 375 GP an attack isn't cheap that adds up fast. The real...
As an out of combat build, the Witch still isn't incredible compared to the Alchemist, as the Alch could still Poison Conversion Drow Poison into consumed and make a sandwich the same way, or just use Oil of Taggit and wait the extra minute of onset time before landing the KO blow. There's a few pretty cheap Con damage poisons I could pick up too if I want to make sure I'm long gone before they know it was me (Black Adder Venom, Fort 11, 1d2 con damage, 100 GP) I'll admit taste would be an issue, but getting any item to cast Prestidigitation on it to make it taste like food again is a trifling cost, especially when you're level 6. The Doom Sandwich does come online sooner (Lv 2 vs. Lv6), which is nice, but it's not as reliable as the Drow KO. And it doesn't magically detect, which is also nice.
Also I guess poison is only 1/3 cost if you make it instead of 1/2, which puts the Drow Knockout at 250 for 10 doses, which is insanely reliable for the cost.
I'll admit the Witch has a host of hexes that'll drop saves to either land Beguiling Gift or other spells, but in combat a quick thrown action (especially from a class that's also prone to throwing bombs), will almost certainly make the poison stick. Even if they hold their breath, it's not bad, and it's a round a spell caster can't cast anything with verbal components.
As for non breathing things, most creatures do breathe, and the ones that don't are generally immune to being poisoned in the first place (Undead, Constructs), so that's a wash. But outsiders DO breathe, and are normally immune to poison, which makes the smoke bomb even better as you have it against end game opponents, and Celestial Poisons specifically states it'll cause its effects regardless of any immunity the target may have. So pay 500 GP instead of 250 to have a DC 51 Drow Poison bomb that works on a Balor (Fort Save of +29, so only passes on a Nat 20) at a level where 500 GP is what you give to beggars to shine your SHOES OF DESTINY!
For a quick and dirty in combat poisoner, nothing's going to beat an Alchemist laying down inhaled poisons though. So I guess it depends on where you're looking to poison. But note that the Alchemist can turn any poison into a smoke bomb, so it gives them a lot more versatility in which they're planning on using in combat. From my poison primer:
Poisons are a rather odd type of item. While Alchemist are easily the masters of poison, that doesn't make them a great item. So rather than listing all the poisons and rating them, I'm going to give a bit of a lesson on poison use and the best way to make these items effective in your adventuring life.
The problem with poisons is that it's quite hard to increase their DCs without raising their price to a point where they lose value. As an alchemist, you have a few options which increase their power in your discoveries.
But one rarely used rule is that you can add additional doses of a poison if it's manner of delivery is either ingested or inhaled. While ingested isn't a big deal, inhaled is what we're looking at here. The best way to make an inhaled poison is to take a non inhaled poison, and change it with the Poison Conversion discovery. Without that, you'll generally outgrow poisoning by about level 6 or so. If you're going to go down the conversion route, your poisons need to follow two simple rules.
*Low cost: The cheaper you can get this poison, the better since you'll be paying for it a lot.
*No onset time: If you're planning on using this in combat, you can't wait for it to take effect.Beyond that, any poison is fair game (a favorite of mine is Drow Poison for how cheap it is, and its effects of knocking out people instantly) although some are better suited to be changed.
Poisons like this are worthless against opponents who don't breath, so undead and such (assuming you took Celestial Poisons) are immune to them. For opponents like that, your best bet is Sticky Poisons, since it'll help spread your poison budget. It's not great since you don't get a lot of attacks with the same weapon (so you'll be waiting longer to deliver multiple doses, as well as being in melee), but undead often have lower fort saves, which makes up for the lack of inhaled abuse.
You are still capable of making poisons a viable tool using this advice, but realize that it'll be a straight drain on your gold for a consumable bonus, so make sure you're aware of everything that goes into using this tactic, and happy poisoning.