Do monster special abilities default to constitution based?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Do monster special abilities default to CON if no ability stat is mentioned? And therefore increase when they are summoned with the augment summoning feat?

For example the Babau protective slime (Su) special ability does 1d8 damage and has a reflex DC 18. It doesn't mention an ability stat, though the DC number suggests it is con based (DC10 + HD/2 + con bonus).

It looks like the sort of ability that should be Constitution based. Is it? Is the fact it is a Supernatural ability relevant?

Does that become 2d6 damage and DC20 with the +4 con bonus from augment summoning?

Silver Crusade

I'm not sure why the damage would change but if it is Con based teh DC would change


What happens if the monster does not have a con score?


Unless noted otherwise saving throw DC default to Constitution score for most (but not all abilities) that produce physical effects and Charisma for magical ones (and some that magically produce physical effects).

When the monster does not have a Constitution score it either uses its Charisma modifier or +0, depending upon monster and ability.


For Undead Cha replaces con, for Constructs I believe you treat them as having a con of 10 (no bonus or penalty).


Oh, and strictly reading RAW Augment Summoning won't increase saving throw DCs - it's a temporary bonus to Constitution, which, according to ability score bonuses does not affect Constitution-based saving throws (but it also means that temporary reduction of Con won't decrease saving throw DC).


FAQ regarding temporary bonuses and ability DCs
FAQ regarding what "temporary" ability score bonuses affect

It'd affect the saving throw DCs.

While the temporary ability score system was supposed to simplify management of temporary bonuses, it only made things worse. I think Paizo realized this and relented on the distinction between temporary and permanent.

The only meaningful distinction remaining between temporary and permanent bonuses is in things like bonus spells/rounds of rage/uses of channel energy per day. Those require a permanent bonus--which, not coincidentally, requires having the bonus for at least a day.

Scarab Sages

A babau would need to take an ability focus (slime) to get the damage to increase. The DC does increase because augmented summoning increases the creatures CON and unless otherwise stated, saves are off of CON (CHA for Undead).


Quote:
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.

Ability Focus only increases DCs as well. (Of course, making opponents fail saves for half damage is an effective way to increase damage.) The only way I know to directly increase the damage of such an ability is to rebuild the monster--at least, unless the monster description or ability description states how to scale the damage.


William Sinclair wrote:
A babau would need to take an ability focus (slime) to get the damage to increase. The DC does increase because augmented summoning increases the creatures CON and unless otherwise stated, saves are off of CON (CHA for Undead).

Where does it say "defaults to CON"? (I couldn't find it quickly)

There are various specific rules for different abilities and/or creature types, but I'm not seeing a general catch-all.

Su abilities typically default to CHA (being magical in nature). I looked up the 3.x entry for the Babau and it does have the line about being CON based, so I presume it was accidentally omitted in this case.


blahpers wrote:
The only meaningful distinction remaining between temporary and permanent bonuses is in things like bonus spells/rounds of rage/uses of channel energy per day. Those require a permanent bonus--which, not coincidentally, requires having the bonus for at least a day.

Hmmm.... I thought the FAQ removed that distinction too. It certainly does not spell it out that way.


No, they dont default but generally physical attacks are based off of con but magical attacks are charisma based. Every monster should tell you what to use. If not the statblock is in error.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Below Average GM wrote:
Do monster special abilities default to CON ?

B1 p292 defaults to Con or Cha depending on "a relevant ability modifier", so yes physical depends on Con.

blahpers wrote:

I think Paizo realized this and relented on the distinction between temporary and permanent.

The only meaningful distinction remaining between temporary and permanent bonuses is in things like bonus spells/rounds of rage/uses of channel energy per day.

I don't think so, I think the written list was "for example" and not "just these". The temp boost won't help anything that would have been "set" in the morning (like spell slots, blah/day etc.)


James Risner wrote:
Below Average GM wrote:
Do monster special abilities default to CON ?
B1 p292 defaults to Con or Cha depending on "a relevant ability modifier", so yes physical depends on Con.

Not to be too argumentative, but at best, for the Babau's specific ability, the text suggests that either modifier is "relevant". (it is a Su ability that produces a physical effect)

I agree that most similar Ex abilities use Con, so it's reasonable to assign Con, but it could have just as easily been Cha given that it's Su. I contend the only way to really know in this case is to decompile the creature and/or compare previous versions.

IMO, part of the confusion also seems to rest on a design philosophy of "most advantageous"... if the Babau had Con and Cha inverted, this ability would have been keyed to the larger regardless of "what makes sense". (although this is much more unlikely in the case of Ex abilities)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Archaeik wrote:
Babau's specific ability, the text suggests that either modifier is "relevant". (it is a Su ability that produces a physical effect)

I don't know of a rule that says Su = Cha. I was speaking more along the lines of this:

Posion, Entangle, Negative Levels, etc = CON
Domination, Insanity, Charm = CHA

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Do monster special abilities default to constitution based? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions