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After much searching I think I've finally found a way to make a ranged rogue work. He ends up looking alot more like this rather then this
The build revolves around using performance feats, shatter defenses, and 3 levels of fighter.
The Dashing Archer:
The dashing archer is the popular man in the shadows. He stands up for the little guy, and does so with style. His confidence (some even say overconfidence) in his ability strikes fear in his foes, as his arrows always seem to hit where it hurts the most. In short he's robin hood. No, not the serious get it done Russel Crowe version, more the Robin Hood men in tights version. He's part performer, part archer, full time badmamajamba
How the build works
Heroic performance allows you to make an intimidate check as a swift action. With this you needn't rely on another to set up an intimidated foe for you to use shattered defenses against. Once shatter defenses goes off you get all the sneak attacks your heart could desire. This means that in the surprise round you'll intimidate and attack which should trigger shatter defenses. Congratulations on round 1 you'll now get to full attack with sneak attack damage.
What this build can do well:
- reliable iterative attacks that deal sneak attack at level 7+
- better to-hit then the typical rogue
- more reliable damage (+3 to attack and damage via weapon training)
- feels roguish (performance feats make for a dramatic acting rogue)
What this build needs help with/ weaknesses:
- creatures immune to sneak attack (like most rogues)
- creatures immune to demoralization (the primary means of getting sneak attack)
- pretty much requires that you have a circlet of persuasion (not a fan of having to have a particular item to make a build work)
- 3 levels of fighter take away from the rogue a bit (but it is really worth it for the +3 attack/damage, fort save, bonus feats)
- until you have a +10 bonus on performance roll the bonuses are unreliable
- only 7 skill points per level due to intelligence being dumped. (you can fix this if you lower strength/or bump it at level 4/8/or 12
Fighters will pull this off with their use of deadly aim, but rogues can't withstand such a penalty (and hit reliable anyway), so instead the rogue focuses on full attacking and using his sneak attack to get the damage in. Since you went rogue you also get other fun goodies like higher skill points, and you know rogue stuff.
The other classes that get sneak attack already have ways to reliably get sneak attack damage through, and they don't have the feats to pull the build off as easily as the rogue.
The one that comes closest is the ninja, but they can only take combat trick once (rogue can take it twice, due to wording when they take the ninja trick rogue talent). Is this kinda an exploit. yes. Does the rogue deserve it. heck yes.
NOTE:If your GM lets the bandit archetype make full attacks in the suprise round, take this instead of thug. It fits better flavor wise, and getting 2 potential full attacks against flat-footed foes rocks. The ability to do this is debatable though so if your GM says otherwise the thug archetype works just fine, and heck, who doesn't like to potentially lay down frighten on a foe.
Human thug rogue 10/weapon master fighter 3 (fighter taken for levels 1,4,7)
stats:
str-14
dex-18 (after racial)
con- 12
wis- 12
int- 7
char- 14
feats:
1. precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot
2. -
3. weapon training(longbow), dazzling display
4. dramatic display
5. performing combatant
6. heroic display
7. shatter defenses
8. -
9. performance mastery, clustered shot (can switch with improved precise shot if you need this earlier)
10.
11. snipers eye, improved precise shot
12.
13. manyshot, crippling strike
Tactics:
The tactics of this build evolve over the course of the archers life. At level 1 he's a fighter archer. By level 3 he begins to feel more roguish with a splash of showmen-ship via dazzling display. By level 6 he's a show-men for sure, but lacks the ability to reliable get off sneak attack (but with dramatic display and free intimidate he can still contribute and deal damage effectively). Finally at level 7 he's the real deal. He'll hit you where it hurts and strike fear in your heart.
your basically a bow wielder who during the surprise round will get sneak attack. I took dramatic display first since, the swift action demoralize isn't relevant until shatter defenses is online at level 7, and a sporadic +2 attack is always welcome.
things are starting to feel more roguish. The moment you grab the circlet of persuasion you auto get the performance feats off, and with performance mastery you get a swift action intimidate followed by a +2 attack (later you can grab the +1d6 damage to use when needed). Sneak attacks aren't super reliable, but with rapid shot you can still contribute in a meaningful way.
this is when the build comes online fully. First, you get weapon training, which when paired with gloves of dueling gives you a +3 attack/damage bonus. Second, shatter defenses works now.
This means in a surprise round you can make a performance check to demoralize a foe (swift action) followed by an attack that will deal sneak attack damage. Essentially this is the dashing archer part of the build, using your charisma to denounce how your foe is about to succumb to an untimely demise, followed by SNEAK ATTACK. Since the intimidate will last a minimum of 2 rounds you can use dramatic display the following round to negate the rapid shot penalty.
Everything from here is gravy. Manyshot is still a good feat, and improved precise shot is important. Snipers eye will help ensure you always get sneak attack against concealment. Crippling shot combined with ranged attacks seem thematically appropriate as the rogue whittles away at an opponents strength.
Of course all of this is based on the premise that you can take 10 on the performance check. If not, the build is not nearly as reliable, and you'd need to lose a feat to grab performance weapon mastery, and dump strength to pull up charisma. All of this really hurts the build in a sad sad way.
- high enchant bow- don't worry about adding damage, maybe seeking enchant early on
- headband of ninjitsu- I forgot about this and isn't included in stats, but definitely a great item to have
- circlet of persuasion- until the combat perform his +10 you can't reliable get off performance checks. This gets us there earlier. Can sell it at level 10+ if you want the slot for something else
- gloves of dueling- this is why we went weapon master and took 3 levels of fighter instead of 2. +2 attack/damage is huge for the rogue
- bracers of the falcon- +1 attack and higher crit range is nice
- bracers of archery- +2 attack/+1 damage is worth it
- boots of speed- extra attacks= extra sneak attack
- cloak of resistance- you need better saves, this will help
- sniper goggles- +2 damage per sneak attack die is amazing, and now you can sneak attack from distance
- belt of physical might- strength/dex are both important (dex is more so though)
- mithril breastplate/celestial armor- mithril breastplate works well since your proficient with it and it doesn't slow you down.
level 9
Attack: +3 (weapon training, assuming gloves of dueling)+ 8 (bab) + 6 (dex, assuming level 4,8 go to dex, +2 belt) + 1 (point blank) + 1 (weapon focus)+ 2 (dramatic display) -2 (rapid shot) + 1 (bracers of the falcon) + 2 (enchant bonus)= 22/22/17
average AC of CR equivalent to level= 23 (95% hit chance on primary attacks)
average AC of CR+3 equivalent= 27 (80% hit chance on primary attacks
damage: 1d8 (base) +2 (strength) + 1 (point blank shot) + 3 (weapon training) + 3 (enchant) + 3d6 (sneak attack)= 24 average per hit
average hit dice of equivalent CR= 115 (5 hit needed, 2-3 rounds)
average hit dice of equivalent CR+3=160 (7 hits needed, 4-5 rounds)
Attack at level 12 (max pfs level, i think)
Attack: +3 (weapon training, assuming gloves of dueling)+ 9 (bab) + 7 (dex, assuming level 4,8 go to dex, and +4 belt) + 1 (point blank) + 1 (weapon focus)+ 2 (dramatic display) -2 (rapid shot) + 2 (bracers of archery) + 4 (enchant bonus)= 27/27/22
average AC of CR equivalent to level= 27 (95% chance on primary attacks)
average AC of CR +3 equivalent = 30 (90% chance of primary attacks)
damage: 1d8 (base) +2 (strength) + 1 (point blank shot) + 3 (weapon training) + 3 (enchant) + 5d6 (sneak attack)+ 10 (snipers goggles)= 41 average per hit
average hit dice of equivalent CR= 160 (4 hit needed, 1-3 rounds)
average hit dice of equivalent CR+3=220 (6 hits needed, 2-4 rounds)
the goal of this post
1. If I missed something important or someone has an improvement I'd like to optimize the heck out of this build
2. Hopefully someone who wanted to make a ranged rogue work will find use for this
-the unnatural presence (faith trait) lets you intimidate animals and vermin, whihc you normally wouldnt be able to--quite helpful for intimidate-centric builds.
-consider getting a cracked (or better) pale green prism ioun stone later--it's cheap, gives a bonus to attack (of a rather hard-to-get type), and can be slotted into a wayfinder bot a bonus effect if you're worried about losing it.
-look into skill mastery (for your staple skills, and mainly performance) at 10th to help the build along.
-i'm worried about the viability of the tactic before performance mastery at 9th level (i believe i brought this up in the rogue thread as well).
-also, what of the gladiator fighter AT? while it likely doesnt stack with weapon master it's pretty much built around performance combat.
-wouldnt something similar work for a melee-focused rogue (possibly trading the archery feats for things like power attack, cornugon smash, and furious focus/dreadful carnage)?
Eh, you can't do skill mastery with the type of Perform Check that performance combat requires. I played a similar build as a straight rogue. You can queue a performance check off of a successful feint, and I used Two weapon feint with a dagger/rapier for flavor.
The fighter dip would have been a good idea for that build too, but I just wanted to be full on rogue.
Anyway, a Combat Performance check is not a performance skill check. It is a special Charisma Check that gets bonuses from a high BAB, ranks in performance, and the performance feats. So skill mastery doesn't do it.
ah. so that's a freed up advanced talent at least!
-the unnatural presence (faith trait) lets you intimidate animals and vermin, whihc you normally wouldnt be able to--quite helpful for intimidate-centric builds.
That's awesome, thank you! I hadn't noticed that.
-consider getting a cracked (or better) pale green prism ioun stone later--it's cheap, gives a bonus to attack (of a rather hard-to-get type), and can be slotted into a wayfinder bot a bonus effect if you're worried about losing it.
ion stones are awesome, gotta love the unslotted bonuses. Ones that increases attack or save seem required later on.
-look into skill mastery (for your staple skills, and mainly performance) at 10th to help the build along.
after crippling strike talents open wide up, and skill mastery would be super helpful. Probably not needed for perform since the bonus only cares about ranks, not the total bonus, but intimidate would be useful to really make sure that it sticks.
-i'm worried about the viability of the tactic before performance mastery at 9th level (i believe i brought this up in the rogue thread as well).
So a large part of this build is assuming that you can take 10 on the perform check (especially in the suprise/first round). If you can, then once you get to a +10 bonus it will just auto succeed. the perform check is weird in that the bonuses go up super slowly. Performance mastery is only really useful in that you get to both intimidate and get a +2 bonus to attack as a swift action. this is nice since your attack needs all the help it can get, and the swift action intimidate is the whole point of the build.
-also, what of the gladiator fighter AT? while it likely doesnt stack with weapon master it's pretty much built around performance combat.
I hadn't thought of that. It does give you performance weapon mastery as a free bonus feat in addition to the 1st level bonus feat. If you can't take 10 then this would definitely help make the build more viable (every +2 will help).
-wouldnt something similar work for a melee-focused rogue (possibly trading the archery feats for things like power attack, cornugon smash, and furious focus/dreadful carnage)?
This build would work with any melee focused build as well. The hard part normally about shatter defenses is that you normally have to first intimidate then hit to get the flat footed foe. With intimidate as a swift action your attacks will proc flat footed foes after a single hit (preferably during the surprise round when you get your sneak attack anyways). this reduces the time to get the build to work from round 2 to round 1. Since combat tends to end in 3-4 rounds (my experience anyway) this really helps make it viable.
I still think ranged works better since you don't have to get in range of the bad guys (rogues can't take a hit well), and you can full attack from a distance easier. You can also start a surprise round easier from ranged since you only need by within 30ft of a foe, not adjacent.
the other thing I liked was that performance feats seem up a rogues ally anyways as someone who more style then substance.
any other ideas for how to optimize this build?
So far I want to include:
- unnatural presence trait
- skill mastery in intimidate
- use the gladiator archetype if I can't take 10 on the check
nothing...
if you havent already got it, obviously you want a cruel enchanted weapon (ominous is also helpful), since it tacks on sickened to the demoralized folks you hit, and ominous adds the weapons enhancement as an intimidate bonus, which is also nice.
you can also use blunt arrows with enforcer/sap master/etc. for ranged hilarity (and it opens up the merciful enchant for even more nonlethal)
IF you go the nonlethal route, look at possibly dipping into order of the blue rose cavalier/samurai (an AT that trades the horse, most likely)
There may be some traction for you with a Cockatrice cavalier, they get Dazzling Display?
After much searching I think I've finally found a way to make a ranged rogue work. He ends up looking alot more like this rather then this
In short he's robin hood. No, not the serious get it done Russel Crowe version, more the Robin Hood men in tights version.
I assume you meant Kevin Costner. Crowe's Robin Hood is the crazy one with Freemasons and D-day landing craft.
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If you get Master Combat Performer You can make the checks as a free action instead of swift actions.
Also there are events you gotta do to get a performance check. First blood, Critical hits etc.
Also there are events you gotta do to get a performance check. First blood, Critical hits etc.
thank you. I hadn't seen that part (performance combat is a larger pain that I had initially thought. The more time I spend reading performance combat, the more I hate it.
So in this case, the build still works (but not as well as I initially thought), but you need to be the one getting first blood. This means that sneaking up and being the first one to strike is vitally important. Fortunately, the high dex nature of this build coupled with the reactionary trait will help alleviate this a bit. (as will rapid shot and the high to-hit bonus)
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Actually there is a couple of things you've got...
Multiple Hits: If a combatant has more than one attack on her turn and hits an opponent with at least two of those attacks, she can make a performance combat check as a swift action. She gains a +2 bonus on this performance combat check for every attack she hits with beyond the second.
This is probally the best for you. If you can hit with all three attacks, you'll score a +2 on the performance check.
Dealing Maximum Damage: Whenever a combatant deals maximum damage with a damage roll (weapon or spell, but not including sneak attack or other variable precision damage), she can make a performance combat check as a swift action. She gains a penalty or bonus on this check based on the type of weapon or spell she uses. Light weapons take a –4 penalty on the check, one-handed weapons grant neither a bonus or a penalty, and two-handed or exotic weapons grant a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. Spells grant a bonus on the performance combat check equal to half their spell level.
Now this one here, You'll get this one 1 out of ever 10 times you attack. +2 to performance check since you have a 2handed weapon.
Energy Spells and Effects: Crowds tend to respond to flashy spells and effects. If a combatant casts a spell or produces an effect that deals acid, cold, fire, electricity, force, or sonic damage in a visible way (including weapons with special abilities like flaming burst or shocking burst that deal bursts of energy damage on critical hits), she can make a performance combat check as a swift action.
This could be a really good one with archery. Do a flashy arrow, cause flashy arrows errupt into performance checks.
Vanquish Opponent: Whenever a combatant reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points, he can make a performance combat check as a free or immediate action.
Another one of the ones you'll probably get.
The thing is, its actually easier to get performance check, and with that feat, you could make 2-3 performance checks a round as free actions.