Sneak Attack and Double-Barreled Pistols

[GhostwheelX]

If a ninja with the Invisible Blade master trick uses a double-barreled pistol to attack an enemy with both barrels as a single action, do they deal sneak attack damage with both shots?

Also, how does the double-barreled pistol interact with full attacks? If you reloaded it as a free action, would you effectively be able to double the number of attacks you'd make on a full attack?

[Zenogu]

Well there's the "volley" rule from the FAQ, but it's aimed towards spells.

Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?

No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target).

As for the 2nd question, I'm lost in the mist as well. We hardly use guns, so it never came up. ):

[Terronus]

Double barrelled attacks can be utilized once during an action so once a full attack action or standard. I think, anyways.

[DM_Blake]

I always assumed double-barreled pistols required a full action to fire both barrels, just like any other time you get more than one attack, so no firing two shots in a standard action. I assume this because the text does not explicitly state that they can both be fired in a single standard action so I apply the general rule to the pistol.

Look at it like Rapid Shot: They both let you take one more shot than you normally can, they both required separate attack rolls for each shot, they both apply a penalty when getting an extra attack, and they both require a full-round to use. Rapid Shot requires a feat investment and the pistol doesn't, so the balancing factor is a higher penalty and the loss of freedom to target two enemies - it is not further imbalanced by granting the pistol the ability to fire two shots in a standard action without explicit text allowing it.

So this means:

"This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action" (two different rounds, firing one barrel as a standard action), "or both can be shot at once with the same action." (the same full-round action).

Then again, I'm not the author so maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't checked for FAQ or errata on it.

As for the Invisible Blade, this works like Greater Invisibility which means you can make as many loud, obvious, visible attacks as you want, using your Greater Invisibility/Vanishing Trick/Invisible Blade to remain invisible the whole time, and therefore ALL of these attacks get your sneak attack damage (against eligible targets).

[GhostwheelX]

Wait, so would you get sneak attacks with both barrels or not?

Also, it says that you can fire both barrels as a single action, not specifically as a full-round action.

[Zenogu]

If it follows the volley rule, you would get SA once. But the example i pulled from the FAQ follows spells...

[cnetarian]

invisible blade means a rogue using vanishing trick is treated as if subject to greater invisibility
greater invisibility does not break when the subject attacks
an invisible creature ignores DEX bonuses to AC
sneak attack damage applies whenever the target is denied their DEX bonuses to AC

Since with invisible blade (and vanishing trick) the ninja remains invisible for all attacks they would all ignore the DEX bonus and all receive sneak attack damage. but see below because firing two barrels ios not really two attacks.

as for doubling your number of attacks, effectively yes but not technically as what you really have is the same number of attacks but double the number of attack rolls. "each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack" (from double barreled musket, the pistol uses slightly different wording). since the two rolls are one attack with two rolls, sneak attack damage only applies once per two-roll attack.

A high BAB non-gunslinger can try to use a double-pistol, rapid reload (pistol, double barreled) & alchemical cartridges to double the number of attack rolls, but misfires will show the foolishness of such an endeavor by anyone but a gunslinger.

[James Risner]

GhostwheelX wrote:

Wait, so would you get sneak attacks with both barrels or not?

No just one will get sneak attacks.

[blahpers]

Designer clarification that, yes, a double-barreled pistol allows firing both shots for every attack (provided you can keep it loaded).

Yes, it's a bit nuts that you can get six really strong attack rolls against touch AC as a 5th level pistolero, but it's RAW and RAI. There is the risk of a double-misfire, of course, and if you're reloading as a free action then you're probably using alchemical cartridges, so your misfire range is 1-2. It won't happen often, but it will happen eventually--misfiring on the first roll increases the range to 1-4, then misfiring again makes you have a bad day.

Regarding the sneak attack business: Since it's one attack to fire both barrels, I think you'd only add it once, and I'd rule it that way, but I'm not super-confident about it. Clarification would be welcome.

[Driver 325 yards]

If the double barrel is analogous to Manyshot, then the precision damage would only apply once.

Manyshot

Quote:

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.

[GhostwheelX]

The thing is, it's not analogous to Manyshot. Manyshot explicitly calls sneak attack out; this doesn;t.

[Archaeik]

The other difference is that manyshot applies an additional arrow to a single attack roll.

Double barrels is 2 attack rolls that happen at the same time.

SA applies once during a volley under normal circumstance because the rules consider the attacker to be revealed.
If something, like greater invisibility protects the attacker's ability to deny his target's dex, then SA should apply to every attack that qualifies.

[Driver 325 yards]

Archaeik wrote:

The other difference is that manyshot applies an additional arrow to a single attack roll.

Double barrels is 2 attack rolls that happen at the same time.

Hah, did not realize this.

So, what in the world prompted this question to begin with? You have two seperate attack rolls. What made the original poster think that this situation is different than other situation where you have seperate attack rolls?

I guess I am just missing something. I missing the "bone of contention" if you will.

Orignal Poster wrote:

Quote:

If a ninja with the Invisible Blade master trick uses a double-barreled pistol to attack an enemy with both barrels as a single action, do they deal sneak attack damage with both shots?

Also, how does the double-barreled pistol interact with full attacks? If you reloaded it as a free action, would you effectively be able to double the number of attacks you'd make on a full attack?

What is the OP getting at with the "as a single action" comment?

[GhostwheelX]

Because if it's a "barrage", like the Scorching Ray spell, then Sneak Attack only applies to one of the attacks, not all of them.

[Gilarius]

blahpers wrote:

Designer clarification that, yes, a double-barreled pistol allows firing both shots for every attack (provided you can keep it loaded).

Yes, it's a bit nuts that you can get six really strong attack rolls against touch AC as a 5th level pistolero, but it's RAW and RAI. <snipped a bit>

Regarding the sneak attack business: Since it's one attack to fire both barrels, I think you'd only add it once, and I'd rule it that way, but I'm not super-confident about it. Clarification would be welcome.

Yep, rules as written allow both barrels to be fired every time (subject to being able to reload). Yes, it's unbalanced. Taking this away would remove about half of the legitimate complaints about gunslingers.

How the 2-barrels-at-once thing interacts with a) sneak attack; b) vital strike; c) focused shot; d) anything else of that ilk, is very unclear and left to each GM/table to decide.