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For the record, I chose Human because they classically make the best Fighters while the favored class option for Aasimars make them the best choice for Dervishes of Dawn.
The point of the thread is to compare the attack and damage bonus between the Dervish and the Fighter, keeping to class features and a few basic feats that can be assumed to have been taken at the earliest possible opportunity.
Fighter
Included in the comparison:
BAB, Weapon Training, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization
Dervish of Dawn
Included in the comparison:
BAB, Battle Dance - Inspire Courage, Weapon Focus, Arcane Strike, Aasimar favored class option for Bards
1st level
Fighter: +2 attack, +0 damage
Dervish: +2 attack, +2 damage
4th level
Fighter: +5 attack, +2 damage
Dervish: +8 attack, +4 damage
8th level
Fighter: +11/+6 attack, +4 damage
Dervish: +13/+8 attack, +8 damage
12th level
Fighter: +16/+11/+6 attack, +7 damage
Dervish: +17/+12 attack, +11 damage
16th level
Fighter: +20/+15/+10/+5 attack, +8 damage
Dervish: +20/+15/+10 attack, +12 damage
20th level
Fighter: +25/+20/+15/+10 attack, +9 damage
Dervish: +23/+18/+13 attack, +13 damage
Now of course there are other factors to consider when discussing melee combat - Fighters gain additional iterative attacks at a higher rate and have the advantage of Armor training as well. Dervishes meanwhile can make use of spells to significantly enhance their combat abilities. At higher levels they can also bounce back and forth between the various Inspires (Inspire Greatness for +4 attack & 4d10+Con temporary hit points and Inspire Heroics for +8 saves and +8 AC) as a Swift action and can cast Cure spells while still taking standard actions to attack.
I'm playing part of a Dervish duo in Wrath of the Righteous and I found the comparison interesting.
Fighter also have the advantage of getting more out of power attack, since they hit +16 and+20 BAB. So that would put their attack and damage bonuses at the same place.
But yes, a dervish is on with the full martial classes that get "anytime" bonuses to their attack and damage. I prefer comparing them to barbarians though, since you can only perform so much per day. Obviously it would be hard to compare them to paladins or rangers since they are so conditional.
Of course, due to those battle dance bonuses applying to each and every hit, they have a large advantage when it comes to builds with a lot of hits (TWF, archery) rather than the one handed one weapon style of dervish dance. But then again, rage's strength bonuses and the power attack damage of both barbarians and fighters can get that x1.5 due to two-handing. So, everything added together, it is kind of 6 of one, half dozen of the other, although others might disagree.
Fighter also have the advantage of getting more out of power attack, since they hit +16 and+20 BAB. So that would put their attack and damage bonuses at the same place.
But yes, a dervish is on with the full martial classes that get "anytime" bonuses to their attack and damage. I prefer comparing them to barbarians though, since you can only perform so much per day. Obviously it would be hard to compare them to paladins or rangers since they are so conditional.
Of course, due to those battle dance bonuses applying to each and every hit, they have a large advantage when it comes to builds with a lot of hits (TWF, archery) rather than the one handed one weapon style of dervish dance. But then again, rage's strength bonuses and the power attack damage of both barbarians and fighters can get that x1.5 due to two-handing. So, everything added together, it is kind of 6 of one, half dozen of the other, although others might disagree.
I think I would agree with you except for two things - the additional options of Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics and the Dervish's ability to cast spells. The benefits from spells like Greater Heroism, Dance of a Hundred Cuts and Freedom of Movement go a long way. Then there's the ability to heal as a move action and the out of combat utility to consider as well, but the point of the thread was just how closely their base standard bonuses compared. I was surprised.
The fighter is the only martial class that does not get any class based combat bonuses until level 4.
Paladins, Smite.
Rangers, FE.
Barbs, Rage.
Do Cavs get to challenge at level 1?
And the best fighters...are stuck with nothing special until level 4...which is both weapon spec AND Weapon training.
Meh.
I would also note that you're using the most powerful synergy mix of a class with the assimar versus the fighter, which has no race that has ANY synergy with any of its class abilities. Making the fighter human doesn't do anything for th/dmg, as it only grants one more feat.
Then, of course, we could go for side feats, AC, HP, etc, but I'm pretty sure that spellcasting equals or trumps those. Feats are only worth half a class feature, after all.
==Aelryinth
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Well, as long as we're being an Aasimar with the bard why not a Tiefling with the fighter?
Any arcane power that is based on character level works for Arcane Strike, so fighters are NOT limited to that.
For straight damage dealing, fighters also get furious focus, and since you used a kit for the bard, they probably use the kit as well (two handed fighter) for additional damage.
So at level 4:
Two-Handed Fighter (Oni Tiefling, but whatever) feats:
Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Arcane Strike, Power Attack
Added consideration: Double strength bonus (Probably +2 damage)
+5 to hit +4 damage (or +4 to hit +7 damage).
They also do slightly more damage (2d4 vs d6, if we're comparing scimitars and Falchions), so that added an addition 1.5 damage in favor of the fighter.
Also, the comparison gets a lot better @ 5-7 and 9 relative to 4 and 8, since you used the "Aasimar" bonus for 4 to get up your to hit right before the fighter got weapon training; and they get a second attack at 6-7 (and better weapon training @ 9). It also doesn't take into consideration that round 1 dervish cannot both battle dance and arcane strike.
I'm not saying dervishes don't have their bonuses, but comparing the "sweet spot" levels doesn't seem fair for fighters :).
I wasn't aiming at any 'sweet spots', I was using even level breaks for examples - notice that 4th level is where Fighters gain access to Weapon Specialization, 8th level is where they get Greater Focus, 12th level is where they get Greater Specialization and 16th level is where they get their fourth iterative attack.
Also, I chose Human because every Fighter I've ever built was a Human, and both the bonus feat and additional hit points aren't anything to sneeze at. I've no doubt that one could make a specialized build to 'compete' with the Dervish, but I was trying to look at the generic benefits between the two.
FWIW, in our group we don't allow the single spell an Aasimar or Tiefling gets to serve as a pre-req for Arcane Strike or any of the prestige classes... we just didn't feel that was the original intent of the design, and it further boosts what some consider inappropriately powerful races.
First, Your giving the Bard the benefit of a feat (Arcane Strike) along with its class features and comparing it to a pretty bare bones fighters. To really have any relevancy whatsoever the fighter should at least have power attack.
Sorry man, but this is all wrong.
I didn't compare it to a 'bare-boned' Fighter. The Bard got one feat, the Fighter got four feats - three of which were intrinsic to the Fighter class and only he could get. Neither the Bard nor the Fighter had their attribute bonuses added in because that is such a high variable and isn't a direct reflection of the classes but rather unrelated stats.
The Fighter got Weapon Training and the Bard got Inspire Courage - that's it. I didn't include ANY spell bonuses, didn't include any of the other Inspire lines. I used the Aasimar's class bonus because that's what I happened to be playing - if I had made a Human Dervish (for instance) it would have only slowed the Inspire Courage progression a little.
Sure the Fighter can take Power Attack, but so can the Dervish - mine does in fact. Truth be told, my actual build includes two levels of MoMS and a level of Unarmed Fighter to lock up the full Crane style line by 4th so if I were to interpose that build, the Fighter's Furious Focus+Power Attack would be next to worthless... but the point of this post wasn't to compare a highly specialized build ike that to a generic Fighter, nor to compare them as if they were slugging it out. I just found it surprising how effective the Dervish of Dawn was compared to a Fighter, even discounting the lion's share of its abilities.
The fighter is the only martial class that does not get any class based combat bonuses until level 4.
Paladins, Smite.
Rangers, FE.
Barbs, Rage.
Do Cavs get to challenge at level 1?And the best fighters...are stuck with nothing special until level 4...which is both weapon spec AND Weapon training.
Meh.
Well, the idea of the fighter is that its feats can give you options throughout the day, while three of those classes can use up their bonuses in a single nova and the ranger might not see its favored enemy at all. The fact that almost every class is feat starved at level 1 allows the fighter to avoid some hard decisions early on (for example, if they use a dex build, they do not need to decide between power attack and weapon finesse, assuming this is not a human)
First, Your giving the Bard the benefit of a feat (Arcane Strike) along with its class features and comparing it to a pretty bare bones fighters. To really have any relevancy whatsoever the fighter should at least have power attack.
Second your comparing a highly optimized build (assimar bard, the favored class bonus is stupid) vs a very poor build (Fighter one hand fighter)
If you are tying to make a statement pointing out that the Dawnflower Dervish is overpowered (and it is very good, I play one) then you should have better controls.
Its like comparing a 100 dollar whiskey to 8 dollar vodka and declaring that whiskey is always better. (you'd be right, but your comparison would be worthless, lol)
Yeah, I brought up the point about power attack too, but, before comparing style and such, the difference is still hard to tell. I did not do much to factor in 2 handing since the dervish's ability to give those large bonuses on each and every hit (when combined with a style with a lot of hits, such as TWF or archery) has large enough numbers that it still means dead monsters on either side.
The point here was not so much to prove the simple point that an optimized bard is better than a barebones fighter, but that it is at least within the same ballpark, despite being a 3/4 BAB class. So it is comparing $100 whisky that is old, refined, and classic with $75 wine that is new and has a surprising taste.
I think I would agree with you except for two things - the additional options of Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics and the Dervish's ability to cast spells. The benefits from spells like Greater Heroism, Dance of a Hundred Cuts and Freedom of Movement go a long way. Then there's the ability to heal as a move action and the out of combat utility to consider as well, but the point of the thread was just how closely their base standard bonuses compared. I was surprised.
Well, those are certainly good points. But to a certain extent I wonder how far those abilities take them. Sure, the bard could be buffed with heroism, but so could the fighter by that bard.
People often complain when using such logic, since the 'if you can't be good on your own, then you aren't good at all' philosophy has some merit. At the same time, while the bards buff themselves, they might not be acting as a much as a deterrent against melee threats on squishier party members. With the action economy, sometimes it is good to specialize (although being well rounded is hardly a fault, but a bonus). But this is just my take, and I can understand somewhat how pure martials can seem underwhelming when you get to the higher levels of magic. The fighter particularly faces the problem of low skill points, which makes them have to hold on all the harder to their niche.
But, I will not excuse myself when saying this: that healing as a move also includes a swift action, and I find it far to circumstantial to really do much. At best, you are doing what with that standard action? Another spell? But there is already a mechanic for getting off another spell: the quickened spell. Since you are already using your swift action, this ability just saves you a feat and lets you spend your move action instead of dealing with the fairly high increase in spell slot. Nice, but again, circumstantial. It is hardly a lay on hands.
Also, I realize that I might be doing a bit much with this post, and it might come off confrontational. I hope to convey that I enjoy this discussion, and I can understand the positions each of you are taking.
If it helps, your post made me seriously consider an Aasimar dervish of dawn for an upcoming build. :)
If it helps, your post made me seriously consider an Aasimar dervish of dawn for an upcoming build. :)
LOL
If so, make sure to drop me a note so I can send you mine - you might be able to get some ideas off of it.
I play-tested one that I really liked, and a fellow player liked it so much that she asked if I would mind if we made two with the exact same build and play them as twins. I tweaked it a little to add in some teamworked feats and the results thus far have been devastating.
Well, those are certainly good points. But to a certain extent I wonder how far those abilities take them. Sure, the bard could be buffed with heroism, but so could the fighter by that bard.
People often complain when using such logic, since the 'if you can't be good on your own, then you aren't good at all' philosophy has some merit. At the same time, while the bards buff themselves, they might not be acting as a much as a deterrent against melee threats on squishier party members. With the action economy, sometimes it is good to specialize (although being well rounded is hardly a fault, but a bonus). But this is just my take, and I can understand somewhat how pure martials can seem underwhelming when you get to the higher levels of magic. The fighter particularly faces the problem of low skill points, which makes them have to hold on all the harder to their niche.
But, I will not excuse myself when saying this: that healing as a move also includes a swift action, and I find it far to circumstantial to really do much. At best, you are doing what with that standard action? Another spell? But there is already a mechanic for getting off another spell: the quickened spell. Since you are already using your swift action, this ability just saves you a feat and lets you spend your move action instead of dealing with the fairly high increase in spell slot. Nice, but again, circumstantial. It is hardly a lay on hands.
Also, I realize that I might be doing a bit much with this post, and it might come off confrontational. I hope to convey that I enjoy this discussion, and I can understand the positions each of you are taking.
First off, I see nothing confrontational about this post - there's nothing I love more than building characters and discussing them and differences of opinion are common.
Something to consider is that I would view the dervish and the fighter as having two slightly different roles - the fighter as a primary front-liner whereas the dervish is a secondary front-liner with the ability to support a number of other roles as well. I do not think that they are necessarily interchangeable... let's just say that the Dervish is a hell of a lot better at filling the fighter's role than the fighter would be at filling any of his.
Looking at your comments on that move+swift action healing, I really believe that many people aren't aware of what the Dervish is capable of at higher levels - consider this action chain by a Human 17th level Dervish:
1st round:
Begin Battle Dance (Inspire Greatness - +4 attack, +4d10+Con temporary hit points) as a swift action
Close with opponent as a move action
Make an attack as a standard action
2nd round:
End Battle Dance (Inspire Greatness) and begin Battle Dance (Inspire Courage - +8 attack/+8 damage) as a swift action
Make a full attack as a full action
3rd round:
Make a full attack as a full action
End Battle Dance (Inspire Courage) and begin Battle Dance (Inspire Heroics - +8 AC/+8 saves) as a swift action
4th round:
Cast Cure Critical Wounds on a fellow PC or on yourself as a swift action and a move action.
Cast Dance of a Hundred Cuts as a standard action to gain +5 attack, +5 damage and +5 AC
(Inspire Heroics still in place)
5th round:
End Battle Dance (Inspire Heroics) and begin Battle Dance (Inspire Courage - +8 attack/+8 damage) as a swift action
Make a full attack as a full action
While that's just one example of an infinite variety of options you can use to swap around your battle dances, hopefulyl it illustrates the action economy and 'in combat' versatility of the class. Being able to attack at +8 attack/+8 damage and then switch to +8 AC/+8 saves before your opponent's turn begins only to switch back again before attacking the next round is pretty amazing.
Obviously the class isn't going to deal the same amount of damage as a Fighter hammering away at the opponent, but I don't think there's a more melee-viable 3/4 BAB out there and there's certainly not a full martial with the Dervish's versatility.
To be honest, in my build I normally wouldn't even take Arcane Strike because of how much the character uses swift actions, but we have a house-rule that allows multiple swift actions a round in place of other actions (Quicken spell allows casting as a move action instead of a swift).
Isn't the archetype called "Dawnflower Dervish?" Why is everyone in this thread using its PFSRD flavorless name?
This build is really cool, I just have one question: Are you using Lingering Performance to get the simultaneous benefit of two different performances?
Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.
Emphasis mine.
Also, you really have to take into account both the bard and fighter as using Power Attack, simply because the fighter gets much more use out of it (he hits the BAB where it improves sooner).
edit: I get it now.
Also, how do you think the "Dervish of Dawn" compares to the "Dervish Dancer" bard archetype?
Isn't the archetype called "Dawnflower Dervish?" Why is everyone in this thread using its PFSRD flavorless name?
This is the build we're talking about:
Isn't the archetype called "Dawnflower Dervish?" Why is everyone in this thread using its PFSRD flavorless name?This is the build we're talking about:
I am aware.
The archetype' name is Dawnflower Dervish. The proper noun "Dawnflower" is closed content, so the pfsrd had to change its name to Dervish of Dawn.
In other words, you are all using the wrong name and it is pretty funny. You can even see the archetype's correct name in the website URL.
Isn't the archetype called "Dawnflower Dervish?" Why is everyone in this thread using its PFSRD flavorless name?This is the build we're talking about:
I am aware.
The archetype' name is Dawnflower Dervish. The proper noun "Dawnflower" is closed content, so the pfsrd had to change its name to Dervish of Dawn.
In other words, you are all using the wrong name and it is pretty funny. You can even see the archetype's correct name in the website URL.
Well, the 'real' name for a ferret is 'mustela putorius furo'... but I'm pretty content at calling it a ferret and I don't mind who finds that funny.
And thanks for contributing to the discussion. We're all a little more enlightened for it.
Isn't the archetype called "Dawnflower Dervish?" Why is everyone in this thread using its PFSRD flavorless name?This is the build we're talking about:
I am aware.
The archetype' name is Dawnflower Dervish. The proper noun "Dawnflower" is closed content, so the pfsrd had to change its name to Dervish of Dawn.
In other words, you are all using the wrong name and it is pretty funny. You can even see the archetype's correct name in the website URL.
Well, the 'real' name for a ferret is 'mustela putorius furo'... but I'm pretty content at calling it a ferret and I don't mind who finds that funny.
And thanks for contributing to the discussion. We're all a little more enlightened for it.
I was definitely enlightened. Thanks for clearing up my confusion AA. BTW...I like your 3pp work and reviews of others' products.
I played a Dawnflower Dervish in RotRL. It started pretty slow but after level 7 or so I was the party tank. Bard casting is full of versatile spells and battle dancing is great. Damage was decent but not amazing. I got lots of usage out of Mirror Image, every time I cast it the other players would joke that I was calling up my back-up dancers.
Great PC, very fun to play.
Isn't the archetype called "Dawnflower Dervish?" Why is everyone in this thread using its PFSRD flavorless name?This is the build we're talking about:
I am aware.
The archetype' name is Dawnflower Dervish. The proper noun "Dawnflower" is closed content, so the pfsrd had to change its name to Dervish of Dawn.
In other words, you are all using the wrong name and it is pretty funny. You can even see the archetype's correct name in the website URL.
Well, the 'real' name for a ferret is 'mustela putorius furo'... but I'm pretty content at calling it a ferret and I don't mind who finds that funny.
And thanks for contributing to the discussion. We're all a little more enlightened for it.
In this particular context, getting the name of the archetype exactly right is a bit important. There are two "dervish" based Bard archetype, one fighter archetype, and the plain "Dervish Dancer" feat. It's all very confusing, and I've had at least on play at my table who had a different set of abilities than he thought, because he conflated two or more of the archetypes.
Isn't the archetype called "Dawnflower Dervish?" Why is everyone in this thread using its PFSRD flavorless name?This is the build we're talking about:
I am aware.
The archetype' name is Dawnflower Dervish. The proper noun "Dawnflower" is closed content, so the pfsrd had to change its name to Dervish of Dawn.
In other words, you are all using the wrong name and it is pretty funny. You can even see the archetype's correct name in the website URL.
Well, the 'real' name for a ferret is 'mustela putorius furo'... but I'm pretty content at calling it a ferret and I don't mind who finds that funny.
And thanks for contributing to the discussion. We're all a little more enlightened for it.
I don't get detect virtual sarcasm until next level, I'm afraid.
Its difficult to compare Latin-to-English translations to using the incorrect name for a piece of RPG content. A better example would be a young child calling a ferret "doggie" because she doesn't know any better. She's not wrong; she's ignorant, and if you've ever seen a young child do something like this, its pretty funny to watch.
That isn't to say that I think the people in this thread are immature or inferior (God, I must sound like a snob!). Regardless of how you interpreted my remarks, you'd have a difficult time finding the "Dervish of Dawn" archetype in any book, so now if you go out and buy the product for yourself, you won't be confused.
That's sort of what I thought was funny, to be honest. Not the fact that people were using the wrong name, but that people are slowly accepting the old name as the correct name simply because a resource everyone uses (the pfsrd) had to change the name for legal reasons. Such a forced change can make things confusing for new players, that much is certain, and at what point does the "truth" cease to exist, replaced by the perceived reality? At what point are so many people wrong that by majority, I'm wrong and they're right? Deep philosophy from an RPG makes me laugh!
I was definitely enlightened. Thanks for clearing up my confusion AA. BTW...I like your 3pp work and reviews of others' products.
Thanks!
Now, to add to the discussion in a more concrete way!
Personally, I don't think that the Dawnflower Dervish bard has the Fighter beat because the bard's awesome bonuses and damage are limited by time. Specifically, rounds of bardic performance. At high levels (when the fighter starts to really outshine the bard) round duration doesn't matter as much, but at lower levels when the bonus means more, the bard can count on it less.
This is just my opinion again, but I personally think that the Dawnflower Dervish is better suited for a race that can select more rounds of performance as a favored class bonus for that very reason; one or two extra rounds of performance matters more at low levels and continues to matter into the end game. You can't really exceed Inspire Courage's maximum benefits, so all the aasimar's favored class bonus does is get you to the bard's glass ceiling faster.
At least, that's my opinion, but I tend to be a long-term planner as opposed to a short-term one.