Goblin Squad Member
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Dear Goblins,
I have but a simple question.
Do our lovable Goblins intend to invoke "Necromancy" in the same ways as other MMORPGS.... Or do they plan to stick as closely to the source material as hardware and software limitations allow.
I ask specifically on the issue of: Animate Dead; Create Undead (And their respective spell trees: Lesser Animate, Create lesser undead, etc.)
In the Tabletop, proper planning, resources, and ability allowed much more diverse capabilities than other MMORPGS have thrown out there. AKA:" DoTs...More DoTs.... oh and here is a skeleton pet to make you happy."
Surprisingly, the best system I have seen to date for Undead Mastery, wasn't truly even necromancy. The Mastermind from City of Villains provided Tiered Henchmen and controls to maneuver them separately. The system wasn't perfect, and could be frustrating due to implementation within the game. (BTW: I was a Ghost Pirate with the Zombies and Shadow secondary. Greatest moment was when I got my Grave Knight)
I just ask, that our wonderful Goblin slav*Ahem* friends don't take the easy way out and give us a negative (Heinous Flag) without atleast making the system for Undead worthy of the effort. I would rather have a good product with invested time and ingenuity, than something copied and rushed.
Hatefully yours,
-Wulf
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are limitation present in the Tabletop. A single caster can control no more HD worth of undead than a set limit per his HD. I can't remember the exact amount off the top of my head, Possibly 4. Having a person control that would be what they signed up for when taking the appropriate skills/feats. Undead mastery is a legitimate form of play and should not be discouraged.
I see no reason it would be unreasonable compared to other legitimate styles of play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Players who utilize undead will have a Heinous Flag. Which will allow anyone to kill them without repercussions. Social interaction is just a single aspect of the game, and necromancers are likely to stick together and form their own social interactions over the course of play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If such a thing were implemented, it would of course be balanced so that a necromancer is still not going to run solo. If he got 4 times his HD in undead, they would be dying very quickly.
I know pet mechanics are not going to be in game right away, so I would include undead minions in that category and say we can expect this sometime down the road if it's crowdforged but not right away. I would hope and expect that some form of undead pet control would be in place at some point, though likely quite different than the specifics of tabletop in terms of what you can control. I think in most cases one undead minion who is more powerful would be a better option than 4 weaker minions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Although there is no timetable for any kind of pet mechanics and Ryan has not exactly been keen on seeing necromancers running around with hordes of pets, I would argue it worthwhile to consider implementing just the "animate dead" part of necromancy. This would mean that a mage (or a priest) with the appropriate skills could animate a corpse but would have no means of controlling it once the deed is done resulting in the former corpse turning into a newly fledged mob for the joy and merriment of the neighborhood.
Such a feature could have the following merits:
* should not require a huge amount of development resources as you could utilize the same (undead) mob models and AI you were planning to develop in any case
* would promote meaningful player interaction in a variety of ways: undead would need to be dealt with, members of a settlement might be interested to find out who is raising undead to create havoc around their holdings, the animator would gain a heinous flag, to animate anything you first need a corpse and so on
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Goblin Squad Member
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Balance is a term in WoW that destroyed the game. There is absolutely no balance in the tabletop game. Trying to balance things in PFO would most likely provide us with the same system WoW has turned into. Paper Rock Scissors.
You say Undead and Necromancy and things go sour, because people overestimate them. First of all, the micromanaging involved means that only some individuals will excel at being an undead master. Secondly, a necromancer who tends to abandon the undead portion of his favored school is nothing but another wizard/cleric.
The "Horde" Master
This was the Undead master who focused on Quantity rather than Quality. I admit that Quantity can be its own form of Quality, but imagine the TT one more time. If I sent 50 CR 1/2 or 1 Undead at a lvl 10 paladin. He would destroy the undead. And the necromancer responsible for the 50 undead would likely be more powerful than the paladin, yet his entire skill focus was decimated by a lower powered character. (This is not meant as an argument, I was just implying that the Horde Necromancer may work in TT, but in an MMO, the micromanaging involved would swamp him.)
The "Mastermind" Master
Tiered pets (Such as the City of Villians Mastermind) Provides the offset to this while playing up the tabletop. One ability would give you a number of pets (1-4) of your mindless, "weaker" undead such as zombies and skeletons. That goes with your most common example of utilizing 4 undead equal in HD to yourself(This is rather difficult in the TT to pull off, but possible). Your next ability would be your lieutenants (Support pets that make your other pets stronger, Heal, etc). Possibly 2 of these. And then finally your third ability would give you a "Leader" pet. This pet would be the masterpiece. Three abilities (One per tier) that are now tied up just managing your minions. Depending on the Mechanics of the game, this should be far more than a "Balancing" Factor. Also don't forget if you kill the master, the pets become mindless (Added mechanic just make them disappear if you wished) And considering 3 of his abilities are tied up into controlling his minions, I will let you do the math as to what an ambushing rogue could do to him.
The "Focused" Master
This is the typical Necromancer found in games since Everquest. You raise an undead minion, that is considered nothing more than a DoT in addition to your other DoTs that you apply. You fear them, DoT them, and pray your pet can tank them long enough to fear them again.
The key ingredient is this: Heinous Flag. Why would I play a character that would constantly be flying a flag that encouraged everyone I came across to kill me without repercussions? You complain that having Undead minions makes it to where I won't have social interactions. I laugh inside every-time I have seen this over the past year. What makes me solo is the fact that you can kill me at any time and not take any hits for it. Necromancers deal in Dark Magic (Evil descriptor), In RP sense they would likely only stick to themselves. Social interaction means nothing when the game actively encourages someone with undead to hide in the darkness. (Psst Come to Golgotha, we like you there)
Anyways, I hope my points came across as intended, I was slightly distracted while writing this.
((Deacon is not a necromancer btw, but I voice the concerns of the Necromancers of Golgotha. And I intend to have a necromancer as a character))
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regardless of whether killing you gives alignment or reputation hits, it can still be a crime and certainly you should expect your settlement's citizens won't attack you regardless of whether you have said flag. Thus, I see no reason why playing a necromancer and getting the Heinous flag would lead to solo play; you won't (or shouldn't) be killed by the people you'd be teaming with. You even say yourself that you'd love necromancers in your settlement; if you're accepting of them, why not someone else?
I agree that necromancers should have undead combat minions at some point; unfortunately that point is likely a little ways down the road (at least you'll have necromancy spells and abilities, which is more than someone who wants to play a druid or paladin at the getgo can say). You will very likely be "just another cleric/wizard" as you put it, just one who focuses on a specific school of magic.
I hope that the economic uses of necromancy such as undead labor are something that is put in quickly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't want these mechanics during EE. I'm talking about a fully functional game. I am just voicing for a fully developed system instead of the "Cop-out" system most games implement.
I agree that the economic issues should be implemented quickly, as it will define settlement economics. And that could be represented by a check box under settlement management and the harvesting kits.
Golgotha is a rarity. As the only LE settlement, we are keeping our arms open to the minority of players in the pre-game community. But I highly expect that Necromancers with the Heinous flag will not be welcome everywhere. Would Brighthaven accept a Caravan protected by Undead strolling through its territory? (that is a question, feel free to answer here or PM me, if there is chance of trade between Golgotha and Brighthaven, a question like that is of some importance)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Golgotha is a rarity. As the only LE settlement...
I wouldn't expect the Settlement distribution related to active posters on these forums to be representative of what we can expect even in Early Enrollment. My experience in other games leads me to believe there will likely be a very large contingent of players who like to play "the dark side".
My guess it that "Evil" will outnumber "Good" 2 to 1.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Prediction time!
My prediction is that for the first two months after OE, a new player's first meaningful interaction will be with an evil character about twice as often as it is with a neutral or good character.
That's not a claim about population, only activity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For reference:
ANIMATE DEAD
School: necromancy [evil]
Level: cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Range: touch
Targets: one or more corpses touched
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: no
This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit.
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.
Limitations include:
A specific component which could get expensive,A corpse as another target/component,
A push toward evil,
Gives the Heinous flag (in PFO),
Limited number of HD per casting,
Limited number of HD controlled at one time.
Also:
Uncontrolled undead are mindlessly aggressive,
Undead are only repaired via inflict wounds spells.
Due to the last few, a necromancer may want to replace partially-damaged minions rather than using another spell to 'heal' them, but breaking the HD limit could create wild undead that attack their creator.
Also note that the limit is on Hit Dice rather than individual minions, so the stronger the minion, the more of your allotment it takes up.
There would likely be penalties to skills like diplomacy or bluff, and it would make stealth fairly useless, since your minions have to be commanded in order to be of much use.
I also think pets should remember their summoner/owner/creator regardless of whether they're controlled, so if a necromancer were to try engaging in passive griefing by intentionally creating more undead than they can control, they get all the hostile, heinous, reputation, and alignment consequences just as if they'd directly commanded the undead. You're effectively firing randomly into an area likely to be populated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unlikely:
A One PC : One Pet thing is not what we're worried about, which is why Druids will have animal companions. What we're worried about is the potential per the RAW for a single character to control a large force of AI entities, which would reduce the need for that PC (and thus all PCs) to seek out meaningful human interaction.
It's easy to construct a character using the RAW that summons and directs an undead host of diverse power and capability. We don't want that. We want you to have to organize a host of diverse power and capabilities by organizing real humans on your behalf.
(emphasis added)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe the largest contingent of players will be neutral.
Do you mean the alignment of social structures, or individual alignment? In terms of social structure alignment, I'm going to guess Ryan will be right--some folk in the upper corners (LG/LE), a good sized contingent in CE, and the majority of players CG.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe the largest contingent of players will be neutral.Do you mean the alignment of social structures, or individual alignment? In terms of social structure alignment, I'm going to guess Ryan will be right--some folk in the upper corners (LG/LE), a good sized contingent in CE, and the majority of players CG.
I suspect you're correct in your assumption, Mbando. I think a large contingent of folk will sit at CG and also CN.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To add to the OP, I'm hoping we will see both sorts of Necromancers. That is, ones with a mindless horde of low CR mobs, and others with far fewer but more powerful and individually controlled undead. Given comments by Ryan, it doesn't seem like this is the GW vision however. A pity, because I think undead add much flavor to a game, and a notorious Necromancer that helps in large scale battles or possibly in construction (The Horde Master) or a clever one that has powerful allies (Mastermind) would go a long way to adding content for Paladins/Clerics and other good aligned folk to actively seek out and destroy. If they are then part of a legitimate settlement that condones or ignores such behavior, this then in turn creates more content...maybe even war.
Yes, they could potentially be overpowered, but having the heinous flag (does this still exist?) would make some people think twice about going down this path and we actually have to have powerful adversaries to plot and fight against. It just forces people to group up, make allies or have more planning than 'charge the bad guy!'. That is, it creates content.
Balance is a term in WoW that destroyed the game. There is absolutely no balance in the tabletop game. Trying to balance things in PFO would most likely provide us with the same system WoW has turned into. Paper Rock Scissors.
While I agree with your sentiment Good Lord Deacon The Wulf, it's Rock, Paper, Scissors, and that's the exact OPPOSITE of the WoW system, which is called "mirrored". Rock, Paper, Scissors is what we want. I'm not sure if that's what you meant, or if you were implying that the WoW system was RPS, when in fact it's mirrored.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Consider that higher level undead can control lower level undead. one strategy may be to create a few high level, instruct them, create lower level and assign. REPEAT.
There may be more that n one layer of control, consider captains, lieutenants, sergeants, and ghost/ghoul/skeleton/zombie. TO pull this off one might need some level of admin or "soldier".
??
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Goblin Squad Member
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A necromancer may need the support of a settlement/group holding a PoI or something in order to work. This would bypass the "no one should be powerful without interacting with others"-problem.
Like how (I speculate) siege weapons will require workshops, resources, time in crafting queues, transportation and control by operators, undead hordes could also be a venture project for a group of people.
This way, a necromancer could indeed become a powerful villain but his settlement/company would need to make sacrifices and pay a price for him becoming so (influence, resources, turning evil, prioritizing necromancer buildings, making enemies...)
Like how I imagine it works in EvE when a corporation pools resources to allow one person to fly the best ship in the universe... (Haven't played EvE, correct me if I'm wrong)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unlikely:
A One PC : One Pet thing is not what we're worried about, which is why Druids will have animal companions. What we're worried about is the potential per the RAW for a single character to control a large force of AI entities, which would reduce the need for that PC (and thus all PCs) to seek out meaningful human interaction.
It's easy to construct a character using the RAW that summons and directs an undead host of diverse power and capability. We don't want that. We want you to have to organize a host of diverse power and capabilities by organizing real humans on your behalf.
(emphasis added)
Given the limits on HD per spell and total HD controllable, even the tabletop rules put you in a position of choosing a huge gaggle of fragile fodder or a few minions that can take some hits. A GM would be within their rights to limit how much time a single player can consume in combat, but might be more likely to allow the gaggle of 1-HD skeletons when it's being used in a way that doesn't involve making rolls for each one.
In PFO, the resource analogue to play time is server processing, so you might not be able to use animate dead to create a lot of fodder, but it might be an option for filling out a workforce, replacing some of those unseen NPCs. When cast for combat purposes, all the HD the spell is capable of animating could be dumped into one, much tougher, servitor. A single casting of the tabletop spell can only animate half of your control limit, so maybe you could create two such animates total. They should be running on extremely simplistic scripts, maybe just passive/defensive/aggressive stances & a follow/stay toggle, so they're still just mooks that a paladin who wants to kick your heinous hindquarters can probably turn and send running.
The create undead spell is more interesting, but there you are creating a cunning thing, not a mindless mook. I could see making it so that such a 'pet' which is not your friend (and in fact hates your positive-energy-animated guts) is hard to control. The responsiveness of your control might depend on your training in some charisma skills, representing how well you can convince the thing that working for you will have value for it. Poor control could have side-effects such as ghouls getting distracted by corpses and leaving a fight to go chew on one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I would be disappointed if you couldn't do mass combat against a horde of zombies or skeletons. It's really a common enough fantasy thing that it almost must happen.
Of course the viability of players with an undead horde is really limited to how much players will be able to lead armies of NPC soldiers to support a play style when they don't have the players to fill out their ranks.
So far as Necromacers directly controlling groups of Undead, To start with Necromancer actually needs a body to work with, forcing player interaction right there. I think for unintelligent undead, it is the kind of thing a Necromancer needs to take very direct control. Undead, either need to behave poorly and require constant control to keep them from causing the playing more trouble, or to stand around like idiots unless told to act.
There are actually many other things I would rather see a Necromancer able to do than run around with a skeleton crew. Go to local graveyard and animate the death to harrass the locals, yes please. Establish some degree of control over the undead they encounter, even if it is a stand back and don't bother me ability, is very important. If we ever got player vampires it would be really cool for a Necromancer and a Vampire to have something of a contest of wills so that the Vampire can't attack the Necromancer.
Hell, it would be really freaking cool if a powerful necromancer could set up an escalation type event by releasing self replicating undead into the wild. The game tracks the local undead population, and the necromancer and others with the abiltiy to do so could help push the escalation forward by murdering other players and raising them as more undead on top of those players killed by replicating undead raising as more undead. This kind of less direct control drives player interaction and makes a player feel like they have a meaningful contribution to the game world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would just like to see something more than the DoTs and Skeleton template that so many games have given to necromancers. I provided some suggestions above, but I would like to see our goblin friends do something unique and interesting. Innovation is dying in games... don't give up this perfect opportunity to do something right for once.
I've always wanted to see an ability... CHECK THIS OUT....
After a Necro summons an Undead compatriot, he can then use a concentration ability to control that Undead minion personally and send him wherever he wants to go. This could be great for scouting, or just sending an undead minion into the fray while the Necromancer is kept safely behind closed doors. Whadya think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Traditional mindless undead typically only follow fairly simplified commands. Possibly something to send in as distractions against enemy formations but not sophisticated enough to work in formations themselves.
As for sentient undead, it might be cool for a player to be able to raise a fallen ally with the undead template. The player might lose access to a weapon or item slot to make room for template abilities. I say "allies" because you really wouldn't want to restrict player free choice too much and who would want to raise an enemy. The sentient undead ally would be able to work in formations or do most other things a player could, but would again have to have some ability/item slots reserved for undead traits. Unless you have a way to equip your newly undead allies in the field, they'll likely be weaker than they would be alive and armed. But the trade off is that they have one more chance to be useful without having to travel all the way back to the battlefield from wherever their bind point was. Though you would want to limit it to only raising former living, and not being able to chain raise the unliving.
Imagine an army fielding a group of necromancers that follow the front line, raising allies as sentient undead or foes as mindless cannon fodder.
Traditional mindless undead typically only follow fairly simplified commands. Possibly something to send in as distractions against enemy formations but not sophisticated enough to work in formations themselves.
As for sentient undead, it might be cool for a player to be able to raise a fallen ally with the undead template. The player might lose access to a weapon or item slot to make room for template abilities. I say "allies" because you really wouldn't want to restrict player free choice too much and who would want to raise an enemy. The sentient undead ally would be able to work in formations or do most other things a player could, but would again have to have some ability/item slots reserved for undead traits. Unless you have a way to equip your newly undead allies in the field, they'll likely be weaker than they would be alive and armed. But the trade off is that they have one more chance to be useful without having to travel all the way back to the battlefield from wherever their bind point was. Though you would want to limit it to only raising former living, and not being able to chain raise the unliving.
Imagine an army fielding a group of necromancers that follow the front line, raising allies as sentient undead or foes as mindless cannon fodder.
I think that's a great idea. Of course the raised allies would be temporary, and would be giving up their ability to enjoy a "normal" rez once the ability wears off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eventually GW will develop a 'henchman' AI/UI system, which could be used for animal companions, hirelings, mounts, familiars, summoned cratures, and of course undead.
The case of one/few undead companions should then be implemented about same time as ranger/druid animal companions.
Hordes of undead (and summoned creatures) should be very fast to implement is it's acceptable to have them as uncontrolled allies (ie follow you and attack enemies, with no direct control).
I personally like the idea of undead to bolster formations - but that is at least as far away as formations.
I also vote for undead laborers: necromancers managing a building or gathering operation should have the (heinous) option to staff it with free 24/7 unskilled labour (up to 2x HD of course)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The easiest is probably raise undead that just go out in the wild and harass people. No control, a player is just adjusting the PVE content. It also is a great example of the Players are the content, and a classic adventure scenario.
Limitations, would be needed, bodies to raise, material components, etc. In my mind though it seems a perfect fit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's also important to realize that as a game with an international market, having undead may be illegal by national laws. For example, anything depicting skeletons or skulls is illegal in China.
There are alternate graphics available for WoW and other games there, but all you'd really need is a default graphic which shows if the client can't display the art it's supposed to. I've seen it happen once or twice when a game was designed to download art resources in the background while you're playing. I'd reinstalled the game and logged back into a higher level area, so the game showed a default image of a humanoid wooden golem until it caught up with the download.
Yes, creating fodder for a battle would be a time that you might want the highest numbers with minimal HD. My point was that a spell might have different effects in different contexts, so they don't need to avoid adding a classic ability because there's a possible case where it violates some design doctrine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont mind undead. I could see that you can either have one single undead (of various types) that would be as strong as an animal companion or summon a pack of weak undead.
That way you dont get into the whole army of the undead thing. I think we all need to accept that wizard, cleric, druids wont be as far above other classes as they are in TT. Although it would be fun to get a couple of gates going.
Necromantic Armies... Nuff said
Oh, I Love Necromantic Armies. <3
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought I'd already linked this in this thread, but apparently I missed it. I think this discussion about using NPC Dragons in battle is relevant to the idea of using NPC Undead Armies in battle.
In that context, let's talk about the dragon thing.
Getting a dragon into a combat should be heck of a lot of work, and not something that a single character could likely accomplish. One path might be finding a dragon's lair, capturing a dragon egg, building a dragon egg hatching structure, bringing the egg through to hatching, keeping a baby dragon alive, learning how to train that dragon, bonding that dragon with one or more characters, keeping a juvenile dragon alive, learning how to train the dragon with combat-useful abilities, keeping an adult dragon alive, getting the dragon into a combat zone, and directing it successfully amidst the chaos and confusion of a battlefield.
That might represent months or years of effort by dozens of people. Having exerted that effort, the reward would be a pretty damn effective weapon system. The reward is that you're using a dragon to fight your foes, who may not be able to defend themselves against such a threat - in which case the proper response is likely die (to delay and advance or cover a retreat) or flee.
If your opponents are fielding dragons, you better be prepared to respond in kind or to have developed similarly powerful tactics.
In this context it's totally OK for one side to just utterly dominate the other, regardless of the size of the forces.
I remain hopeful that a powerful Necromancer will be able to do something similar with an Undead Army, as long as it takes "months or years of effort by dozens of people" and has a similar chain of events that all amount to a "heck of a lot of work".
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are some features just the existence of them that elevate the rest of the game sometimes I've found. I think it's good in some form to have these things that create a lot of genuine excitement.
Eg if I had a mount that had horns, watching it gore/butt other players is the sort of disproportionate enjoyment I'd get from such a feature in a game!