OK, I was just thinking about the Cthulhu, Dagon, Deep One/Skum situation on Golarion.
Point the First: we know that on Golarion, the Skum fill the storytelling niche that the Deep Ones do on Earth, since apparently the Deep Ones are a specfically Terran phenomenon.
Point the Second: we know that in the setting/multiverse of Golarion, Dagon is a Qlippothic Demon Lord rather than an elder Deep One, and is worshiped in the same way that Dagon is worshiped on Earth, often in conjunction with the Great Old One Cthulhu.
Point the Third: On Earth, the Deep Ones worship Dagon as part of a sort of trinity in conjunction with Cthuhu and his consort, Mother Hydra, another elder Deep One grown to enormous size.
I was wondering if there is room for an equivalent of Mother Hydra on Golarion? Perhaps another Qlippothic Demon Lord with close connections to Dagon? Or maybe even better, a Skum High Priestess of both Dagon and Cthulhu, grotesquely swollen with eldritch and unholy energies, grown to gigantic proportions and rendered immortal.
I propose that Golarion's Mother Hydra could be a Skum with the Half-Fiend template, advanced enough hit dice to be Huge (or even Colossal) and with many levels of Oracle with either the Waves or (even better) Dark Tapestry mystery, who recieves her powers from both Dagon and Cthulhu. I only wish that Pathfinder had an equivalent of the Pseudonatural template from 3.5 that could be used instead of Half-Fiend.
I was also thinking that she would be a perfect candidate for for Mythic Ranks, especially enough to make her Immortal, and the Divine Source power so she herself could actually be worshiped as part of the Cthulhu, Father Dagon, Mother Hydra trinity.
Any thoughts?
You might want to ask James Jacobs about this. He's the Lovecraft fan among the Paizo staff.
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I would love to see the Dark Tapestry elements come together for a handful of products in much the same way Wrath of the Righteous came together with a Tales novel, two Campaign Setting books (three if you count the Map Folio), a Player Companion, and of course, the Adventure Path. Such a slew of products could easily be the place for Mother Hydra and a take on that trinity.
Creative Director
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Dagon has a longer tradition in the game of being a demon lord than a powerful deep one—he was listed as a demon lord as early as in the 1st edition Monster Manual. Mother Hydra has NEVER been a part of the game, and both of them in their association with deep ones have never been a part of the game. So, for Dagon at least, he exists in Pathfinder as a demon lord, but he DOES have a lot of association and crossover with Cthulhu and other Lovecraftian elements, if only because his alignment, personality, and worshipers share so much in common.
Furthermore, I've always seen these versions of Dagon and Hydra as being very Earth-centered. Cthulhu as well, but since Cthulhu is from another planet and can dream across dimensions, he's got a MUCH wider net than do Dagon or Hydra, who in the stories strike me as purely earth species. In fact, the deep ones themselves strike me as purely earth species and not interstellar or interdimensional species.
There is certainly room on Golarion for powerful skum overlords or the like—that role is, for the most part, played by aboleths, veiled masters, and the as-of-yet unrevealed entities that exist above veiled master in their overall power structure.
But since neither skum nor deep ones are particularly extraterrestrial, directly involving the Dark Tapestry in their own mythos and stories doesn't make much sense to me.
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Creative Director
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There is certainly room on Golarion for powerful skum overlords or the like—that role is, for the most part, played by aboleths, veiled masters, and the as-of-yet unrevealed entities that exist above veiled master in their overall power structure.Will the "Occult Mysteries" book shed some light on these entities? I have a group of players who delight in doing "adventurer business" to any aboleth they happen to encounter, accidental or deliberate. I'd very much like some information that would shed some light on creatures higher up the chain that might find said PCs intriguing.
It will indeed shed some light. It won't reveal everything—that still for a later day—but it will reveal some things!
There is certainly room on Golarion for powerful skum overlords or the like—that role is, for the most part, played by aboleths, veiled masters, and the as-of-yet unrevealed entities that exist above veiled master in their overall power structure.Will the "Occult Mysteries" book shed some light on these entities? I have a group of players who delight in doing "adventurer business" to any aboleth they happen to encounter, accidental or deliberate. I'd very much like some information that would shed some light on creatures higher up the chain that might find said PCs intriguing.
The number of times I've done a spit take reading James' posts just increased by one.
Dagon has a longer tradition in the game of being a demon lord than a powerful deep one—he was listed as a demon lord as early as in the 1st edition Monster Manual.
I don't remember that, I'll have to look that up. Do you remember where or what context it references Dagon?
Dagon has a longer tradition in the game of being a demon lord than a powerful deep one—he was listed as a demon lord as early as in the 1st edition Monster Manual.I don't remember that, I'll have to look that up. Do you remember where or what context it references Dagon?
Monster Manual II (1e), p35, in the list of demon rulers at the bottom left of the page (assuming it didn't change in different printings)
And actually as a Demon Prince, rather than Lord, as he ruled an entire layer of the Abyss rather than part of one :)
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Creative Director
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Dagon has a longer tradition in the game of being a demon lord than a powerful deep one—he was listed as a demon lord as early as in the 1st edition Monster Manual.I don't remember that, I'll have to look that up. Do you remember where or what context it references Dagon?
First reference was actually in one of Ed Greenwood's devil articles in Dragon, I believe... but yeah, Dagon was a devil there.
He was listed as a demon lord on page 35 of the 1st edition Monster Manual, on the big list of demon lord names (this is also where I got the name Obox-ob).
I don't believe much was done with Dagon at all beyond that until Dungeon #106's adventure, "Tammeraut's Fate" that had a location in the ocean called "Dagon's Maw." That's courtesy of myself and Greg Vaughan. Dagon of course later on got a big treatment in the game as a demon lord in a Demonomicon article I wrote, in Fiendish Codex 1, and in the Savage Tide Adventure Path.
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In addition to Dagon's D&D history (for the care of us Grognards), Skum are also 1E: the 1981 Fiend Folio, as I remember. That predates Dagon's entry into D&D in, what, '83/ '84?
That being said, Skum as a monster race are not exactly a sacred cow the way monsters such as drow, Tiamat (who would make a great "Mother Hydra" if she weren't such a SACRED COW), or Demogorgon.
So Paizo could get away with a Skum "revisit" without us Grognards spewing vitriol all over the Messageboards.
(Still can't believe our heads didn't explode when they made drow blue, ...blue?!, and had them spontaneously transform from other elves. Blech.)
In addition to Dagon's D&D history (for the care of us Grognards), Skum are also 1E: the 1981 Fiend Folio, as I remember. That predates Dagon's entry into D&D in, what, '83/ '84?
Wrong. Second Edition, Polyhedron #67, 1992.
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Creative Director
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(Still can't believe our heads didn't explode when they made drow blue, ...blue?!, and had them spontaneously transform from other elves. Blech.)
Making drow blue is hardly something new we've done. It's difficult giving something that doesn't reflect light (aka the color black) definition in art, and so that's why you see so many drow that are dark blue or dark purple or dark gray in artwork.
and had them spontaneously transform from other elves. Blech.)
Blech? I think its cool as heck.
Something about it reminds me of Tad William's trilogy novels of Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn but I don't quite remember them or why I think there is a connection.
I also think it makes elves a little more mysterious. The transformation is very outsider-like.
Making drow blue is hardly something new we've done. It's difficult giving something that doesn't reflect light (aka the color black) definition in art, and so that's why you see so many drow that are dark blue or dark purple or dark gray in artwork.
I always wondered why they had a blue tinge to them in artwork, and now I know! Interesting.
