Can a magus use a combat maneuver with spellstrike or must it be an attack vs ac?
It seems that all the nice stuff of Spellstrike only happends if the weapon hits so i would say, no.
Spell strike is using the weapon to deliver touch attack spells and it you have a touch attack held in your weapon and trip some one with it. I think they only fall.
Umm, I appeciate the imput but that sounds like speculation. Can anyone come up with rules or rulings?
Umm, I appeciate the imput but that sounds like speculation. Can anyone come up with rules or rulings?
"Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier."
Does "melee attack" preclude combat maneuvers? That's the question. It's not completely clear.
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My Magus in PFS uses Spellstrike and Sunder together often, and in two more games I'll be picking up Sundering Strike =D. With Greater Sunder/Intensified Shocking Grasp, even doing half damage hurts.
I've never used Spellstrike with the other CMs, though, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work with Disarm or Trip. Grapple, Bull Rush, and Reposition might be iffy.
Nefreet thank you, the only question is that part of the text mentions doing damage normally. Also obviously it would only work with CMs doable with a weapon. Specifically the weapon you are using.
I think i would allow sunder in my game. But i also think the rules is that you deliver the touch attack with your weapon. Not that you get a free attack to do whatever you can do with an attack action.
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I think i would allow sunder in my game. But i also think the rules is that you deliver the touch attack with your weapon. Not that you get a free attack to do whatever you can do with an attack action.
I agree with this. By the rules as worded it would seem that you could use Spellstrike with Sunder, but not anything else in terms of maneuvers. Now I see no problem with performing spell combat and maneuvers, however.
Thank you Drachasor, that's very clear.
Also Cap. Darling, Fomsie, you don't get a touch attack with your weapon. You get an ordinary attack in its place. Only gunslingers get martial touch attacks.
Thank you Drachasor, that's very clear.
Also Cap. Darling, Fomsie, you don't get a touch attack with your weapon. You get an ordinary attack in its place. Only gunslingers get martial touch attacks.
I know, what i was trying to say was that the attack you get is one to deliver your touch Spell with the weapon, as a weapon attack. And there is no rules for delivering touch spells with maneuvers so even if you, are allowed, to use it on a maneuver you will need the GM to rule that somthing happends other than the trip or whatever you used.
Edit: if there is a ruling about touch spells and maneuvers i am dont know about it, but that is what you need to pull this of i think.
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Thank you Drachasor, that's very clear.
Also Cap. Darling, Fomsie, you don't get a touch attack with your weapon. You get an ordinary attack in its place. Only gunslingers get martial touch attacks.
Well aware of this, however, allowing non damaging maneuvers with Spellstrike opens the door for free Arcane Mark trip attacks, and I have a problem with seeing that as the intent.
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No more than two-weapon fighting does the same.
Spell Combat is the Magus version of TWF, which should be fine to do with a maneuver as your melee attack, but Spellstrike is in place to allow you to deliver your touch spell as a bonus weapon strike instead of the free touch associated, and I don't see the non striking (and therefor non delivering) maneuvers as meeting the descriptive obligation of the ability.
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Spellstrike gives you an additional weapon attack, ostensibly to deliver the touch spell charged up. That is granting an additional opportunity to perform an attack option and it is being abused if it is not being used to deliver said spell. It is not "A Magus can cast a touch spell through his weapon to get a free extra action", the extra weapon attack is only there to allow a variant means of delivery of the spell in question.
In this case it comes down to this, could you perform the combat maneuver with the casting of the spell by itself? Could you perform a Trip maneuver in conjunction with the casting of a normal Shocking Grasp, or with say Arcane Mark? No, and then you cannot use that spell as a work around to get a free maneuver attempt, which is what it would be.
Spell combat would be fine, as you are still limited to your normal number of melee weapon attacks and are free to use them as maneuvers within the limits of the rules.
Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell.
Seems to me that if you substitute a combat maneuver, it would still deliver the spell--so long as it was successful.
Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell.Seems to me that if you substitute a combat maneuver, it would still deliver the spell--so long as it was successful.
This makes sense to me.
But if you're sundering, you would be damaging the attacked item.
As for Disarm, are you attacking the weapon or the holder? It doesn't specify..
Trip seems fairly straightforward, trip plus spell effect.
I'm just curious, would anyone let a wizard use his free touch to perform a combat maneuver?
I'm just curious, would anyone let a wizard use his free touch to perform a combat maneuver?
No, because the Wizard does not have Spellstrike. A combat maneuver can be used in place of a melee attack; no such substitution rule exists for touch attacks. Spellstrike allows you substitute a normal melee attack in place of that touch attack, thus why it works properly
Rationally, combat maneuvers can be used to deliver touch spells as long as they are performed with a hand or a hand-like appendage. It's the act of touching something with your hand that discharges the touch spell; this is why if you cast Shocking Grasp and then pull out a potion, the potion blows up. If you grab someone's ankle or arm, there's no sensible reason why the spell would fail to discharge.
The only restriction on using a combat maneuver with Spellstrike should be the same restriction as with performing a combat maneuver with a weapon: Thematically it has to make sense that you use the weapon to perform the maneuver. For example, you couldn't use a scimitar to grapple someone, but you could definitely use it to disarm someone.
Well, if the intent of spellstrike was to allow the magus to deliver the spell through his weapon instead of a touch, do you think the intent was to allow the magus to use that attack to instead perform a combat maneuver. I understand the RAW, just curious about the RAI. (And, just to be clear, not attacking anyone or calling 'cheese,' just, I don't know, looking for perspective, I guess.)
I don't see any real thematic problem with substituting a combat maneuver for the Spellstrike attack, honestly. It seems pretty appropriate to me, actually: A Magus charges his fist with crackling electricity, grins knowingly at his foe, and then proceeds to melt his sword with lightning while sundering it.
I'm just curious, would anyone let a wizard use his free touch to perform a combat maneuver?
Honestly: Maybe.
We know you can use an unarmed strike to deliver a touch attack, so you probably can swap it for a maneuver. Will it succeed ? Ho Boy that's the question!
BBA 1/2, nearly no interest in maneuvers feats so probably another AoO (if he didn't cast defensively just before), and probably a Str of 8 or 10.
Even with the better conditions or optimization, it's still Rock Golem hard to succeed!
But yeah, I wanna see some Wizard duel with the faster one using shift to pull a disarm combat maneuver with an arcane mark on the other one staff, tagging "All you sticks are belong to us" in it before using a move action to move away at half speed to make a "Like a boss"!
Hu! I just happened to understand how to make a sunder attempt with a touch spell. You just need a natural attack so no AoO @_@
Haaaaa! Maybe you need to wait another turn to use unarmed strike/natural attack to deliver a spell! I need to read stuff!
I would allow a Wizard to deliver a touch spell using a combat maneuver as part of his normal BAB iteratives; Durngrun was asking specifically about substitutuing a maneuver for the free touch attack granted by the casting of a touch spell.
I would allow a Wizard to deliver a touch spell using a combat maneuver as part of his normal BAB iteratives; Durngrun was asking specifically about substitutuing a maneuver for the free touch attack granted by the casting of a touch spell.
I'm talking about it too.
I can't remember if the rule (I can't find it in my book) about using your fist or a natural attack states you can do it "as part of the casting", like the normal free touch attack, or if you need to wait the next round.Because if you can use your fist/natural attack, then you can use a maneuver!
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
The casting grants you a touch attack; you can't substitute an unarmed strike or natural attack there normally. You can hold the charge and then on the next round use an unarmed strike or natural attack to deliver the spell.
bla.
Ha, in combat! I was sure it was in Magic.
Okay, thank you to remind me that. Less potent than I remembered, but useful to keep in mind.