Ruminating a bit about creating a violin/fiddle playing bard as my next character, this question came up:
Can a bard who uses an instrument which requires two hands (which the violin/fiddle does, if you use bow to play it) cast spells while doing so?
Going by RAW it seems not to be the case. However, I found an ancient post by Jason, which indicated that he was considering allowing bards to do just that. It seems that dropped by the wayside during the writing process of the CRB.
Is there a way to overcome the two-handed instrument limitation?
Yes, but the actual question I asked is: Can you cast spells with an instrument which doesn't leave you a free hand, i.e. a violin/fiddle with a bow (not the weapon)?
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There is a precident for Bards casting with items in hand from the Arcane Duelist archtype.
Arcane Bond (Ex): At 5th level, an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item, allowing him to cast any one addition spell that he knows once per day. He may not choose a familiar or other type of bonded item. He may use the hand holding his bonded weapon for somatic components. This ability replaces lore master.
This might have to be home ruled though, I would allow it.
You can't just take your hand off of it as a Free action, just like Staff using Wizards?
Actually, the entry for the Arcane Duelist rather makes the opposite case, that you'd need an alternate class feature to cast with an instrument which requires two weapons.
And while the bow for a violin is not a heavy item, it still occupies your hand, so normally you could not cast using it.
The rules are vague here but nowhere does it state you must have separate hands for a spell focus AND a material component AND a somatic component. That would be 3 hands.
If the thing in your hands is required to cast the spell then it should be safe to assume it is part of the casting and does not interfere. The same logic should apply here.
Frankly though, why are you straitjacketing someone with a musical instrument to cast his spells? There is nothing that requires a violin as part of the spell-casting process. That is what the voice is for.
Roleplaying flavor?
Roleplaying flavor?
Well there comes a time when adhering to flavor potentially screws up mechanics.
This is one of those times. You need to decide whether you like mechanical function or flavor better for this character.
the better performances tend to be the instrument free kind
Dancing
Acting
Comedy
Oratory
Singing
nothing says a bard is required to carry an instrument
though the violin, it could be argued that the running of the bow against the strings is the somatic component and the music the verbal
though a similar thing can be said about puppetry (acting) and ventriloquising the words as your puppet dances
Of course you can let go of the instrument for a few seconds. You've never heard of cæsura?
Not to mention that a bard is an extraordinary performer, and if you've never seen a guitarist play with one hand, it's something worth looking up.
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You need your hand to cast most spells. You do not need an instrument, much less your hands, to use bardic performance.
Oh, I give up. >.<
Thanks to Cuttler for actually talking about the topic I asked about.
You need your hand to cast most spells. You do not need an instrument, much less your hands, to use bardic performance.
What he said.
You most definitely can, as a free action, release your grip with one hand, cast a spell, then re-grip the item.
However, the bard has no need to do this, since he has no reason to play an instrument during a battle. Most uses of 'bardic performance' don't even require a perform check.
Oh, I give up. >.<
Thanks to Cuttler for actually talking about the topic I asked about.
I answered your question. You ignored the answer.
Most of the posters addressed the question.... Oh well.
I pretty specifically asked about a violin, which uses a bow in your other hand. Saying stuff like "you can take your hand off to cast a spell" completely ignores how that would be even physically possible, so it's not an actual answer to the question.
It is quite possible to play a violin one-handed, and the discussion about handedness (and cæsura, for that matter) was relevant to your question. There's no need to be rude.
I pretty specifically asked about a violin, which uses a bow in your other hand. Saying stuff like "you can take your hand off to cast a spell" completely ignores how that would be even physically possible, so it's not an actual answer to the question.
If I weren't so lazy I'd take a video of myself holding an object and then another smaller object in one hand, just to show you how far from "physically impossible" it is.
By RAW for spellcasteing: no, since you'd need both hands to play the instrument the whole time and do not have a free hand for casting.
But who says the play you're performing doesn't call for a (dramatic) pause where you let go of your bow (hey, get a weapon cord so you don't drop it!--it is a bow, after all), tap your feet to keep the rhythm, cast your spell and continue playing the violin using your bow.
I think this question is difficult to answer strictly RAW since there's no precedent/mechanics in the CRB etc. for how to play violins.
Thus, no matter what, flavor/fluff comes into play (sorry for the pun).
Ruyan.
... just looked up what caesura means... --> what blaphers said.
Ruyan.
It is quite possible to play a violin one-handed, and the discussion about handedness (and cæsura, for that matter) was relevant to your question. There's no need to be rude.
I specifically asked: Can you play the violin with a bow and cast spells? So far, two persons (Cuttler and RuyanVe) actually engaged with that question. That's not rude to point out, just what actually happened.
I pretty specifically asked about a violin, which uses a bow in your other hand. Saying stuff like "you can take your hand off to cast a spell" completely ignores how that would be even physically possible, so it's not an actual answer to the question.If I weren't so lazy I'd take a video of myself holding an object and then another smaller object in one hand, just to show you how far from "physically impossible" it is.
Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
Page 184: To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your hands full or occupied.
None of which changes the fact that it is in no way physically impossible to hold the bow in the hand you're holding the violin for as long as it takes to cast the spell and then go right back to playing.
What do you want?
Do you want a way to cast with your hands full? Take Still spell and use it on everything.
Don't like that option? Hold the violin and bow in one hand while you cast.
Don't like that option either? Too bad. You quoted the rules text quite clearly. No, you can't cast with both hands full.
Happy? Is that direct enough of an answer for you? No, you can't do exactly what you're asking for within the rules without giving something up. That is the price you pay for picking flavor over mechanics and allowing no concessions within that flavor to allow the mechanics to flow more smoothly.
What I was asking was if someone knows a way around this or if the rule which Jason Bulmahn mentioned wanting to implement 5 years ago had slipped in somewhere I had not seen it before.
And as far as I can see, it is physically impossible to hold the bow and properly use a somatic component.
That sounds like an idea. Thanks again, Cuttler. :)
What I was asking was if someone knows a way around this or if the rule which Jason Bulmahn mentioned wanting to implement 5 years ago had slipped in somewhere I had not seen it before.
And as far as I can see, it is physically impossible to hold the bow and properly use a somatic component.
It is not. If you just want the hand free, you can simply transfer the bow to your violin hand for a couple of seconds, cast your spell, then transfer the bow back. If you want a hand free and still want to use the bow during those seconds, you can play the violin one-handed, holding the violin by its neck under your chin (yes, people do this, either for showmanship or because they only have one arm), freeing that hand to cast. If you like, after casting, resume your hold on the neck and return to two-handed playing. No feats required.
Thanks, blahpers, if the question comes up (meaning: If my current character dies), I'll present this to my GM.
Thanks, blahpers, if the question comes up (meaning: If my current character dies), I'll present this to my GM.
Good luck and have fun!