"Class Feature"


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hi and happy Thanksgiving fellow witches and wizards. Please enjoy barbecuing your turduckens with burning hands responsibly.

Here's a thought...

I was looking at this thread (-such link-) and didn't see anything but a bunch of scared carebears qqing about how awful it would be if a highly-subjective rules question were interpreted in favor of the player.

Here's the basic TL;DR:

1. In Underdark pp. 25 and similar books, feats such as Extra Wild Shape specifically list, "Ability to use Wild Shape" as a prerequisite. This is a completely different prerequisite wording from "Wild Shape class feature" - it's like saying "wizards have the class feature ability to cast arcane spells" or "rogues have the evasion ability as a function of their class."

2. The feat "Shaping Focus" (-so connect-) specifically states "Wild Shape class feature" on a feat specifically designed for multiclassed druids who in all likelihood will not have it. This does not seem like intended behavior, since the whole point of multiclassing is to not get locked into a class for a predetermined number of levels just so you can take a feat to avoid being locked into a class for a predetermined number of levels.

3. Is this intended behavior? Please don't flame or make emotional arguments. This is about important things like my imaginary shapeshifting wizard and his quest for the holy grail, so we need real logic to answer this very serious question.

(-Wow-).

Sovereign Court

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The mmo talk is strong with this one. Do you have a newsletter?


Pan wrote:
The mmo talk is strong with this one. Do you have a newsletter?

My life is a newsletter.


To answer #2 first: The feat isn't intended for druids who don't have wild shape. It's intended for druids who do have wild shape, but are also multiclassed (for instance, a druid 4/monk 4). With the feat, that character's wild shape will function as if she was a druid 8, which is a nice boost.

1. "Ability to use wild shape" and "wild shape class feature" are fairly synonymous as prerequisites, since there's (AFAIK) no way to get wild shape other than as a class feature. The reason they're written differently is likely because they were written by different authors, and/or because they were written by different companies.

3. I believe so.


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Puck Norris wrote:


Here's the basic TL;DR:

1. In Underdark pp. 25 and similar books, feats such as Extra Wild Shape specifically list, "Ability to use Wild Shape" as a prerequisite. This is a completely different prerequisite wording from "Wild Shape class feature".

Here's our first disagreement. I call it the "assumption of perfection fallacy" - you're reading a difference where none was intended. D&D books are not P.G. Wodehouse, where every twist of phrasing has meaning, they're closer to US college textbooks.

Puck Norris wrote:


2. The feat "Shaping Focus" (-so connect-) specifically states "Wild Shape class feature" on a feat specifically designed for multiclassed druids who in all likelihood will not have it. This does not seem like intended behavior, since the whole point of multiclassing is to not get locked into a class for a predetermined number of levels just so you can take a feat to avoid being locked into a class for a predetermined number of levels.

We disagree again. Shaping Focus is intended to let characters with sufficient Druid levels to actually have Wildshape take a few levels of something else and still keep up their Wild Shape.


@Are, how do you know the intention of the feat?

@Pupsocket, The point of perfection fallacy is reasonable. +1

@Both of u dawgs, how do you know that these two are synonymous? You've impugned the evidence behind my argument using reasonable points, but you've also failed to provide any evidence that "Wild Shape Class Feature" does not function as I've suggested, in other words, my assertion now stands on the same ground as your assertion, "Because this is how I read it."

Is there nothing conclusive about this? And further, if there is, and if it does not lend itself to my perspective, the conclusion which I draw is very dangerous for the general consensus of the way rulings are handled in Pathfinder, in general.

Also cats.


Not all rules are written by the same person so different people will use different wording to make the same point.--->Paizo hires freelancers to write a lot of its books. So for your question ability to use wildshape is the wildshape class feature or any variation of the same thing.


Puck Norris wrote:

@Are, how do you know the intention of the feat?

I mainly believe that's the intention of the feat because of a number of other feats that work in similar fashion. But you're right; I'm not the designer of the feat, so it's possible I'm wrong.

Puck Norris wrote:
@Both of u dawgs, how do you know that these two are synonymous? You've impugned the evidence behind my argument using reasonable points, but you've also failed to provide any evidence that "Wild Shape Class Feature" does not function as I've suggested, in other words, my assertion now stands on the same ground as your assertion, "Because this is how I read it."

If I read you right, you believe a druid counts as having the wild shape class feature starting at level 1, despite not being able to use it until level 4?

There are a number of other feats that have a certain class feature as a prerequisite. For several of those, it wouldn't make sense for the feats to be available from level 1, although by that reading they would be.

For instance:
-Extra Lay on Hands (a paladin doesn't get lay of hands until level 2, so if you take it at level 1 it doesn't do anything)
-Extra Rogue Talent (a rogue doesn't get their first rogue talent until level 2; this feat would then allow a rogue to get an "extra" talent before they've gained their first normal one)
-Fast Drinker (similarly to my first example, this feat only does something at level 3+)


Pan wrote:
The mmo talk is strong with this one. Do you have a newsletter?

As someone who has played almost no mmos could you explain what "mmo-talk" he was using?

//Curious


@Are, I looked up Extra Lay on Hands and I think I understand where you're coming from, "A feat with '* class feature' as a prerequisite can be taken but its effects are inert because the class feature which it modifies does not yet exist."

^ Sorry if put words in your mouth, but your a dragon and your mouth is big so I figured you would be k.

So my counterpoint is that yes, you're right - extra lay on hands gives "additional" lay on hands. Since you don't possess the ability yet, it is rendered inert even if you take it.

However, the druid still has levels and the druid still possesses the class feature named by the feat taken so by taking Shaping Focus, it is reasonable to say that it is still "checked" for its own level adjustment before its effect is "applied" (making mtg gating arguments hear sorry gaiz).

Does that make any sense, albeit in my otherworldly optimizer1337speek?


I was actually trying to say that the way I see it, those feats can't be taken until you gain the appropriate level. While with the other reading, you would be able to take them at a time when it wouldn't make sense to be able to.

But my examples may not have been the best. This one, however, I think illustrates my point better:

PRD wrote:

Raging Deathblow

Every killing blow gives you a surge of vitality, further fueling your rage.
Prerequisite: Greater rage class feature.
Benefit: While raging, whenever your attack reduces your opponent to –1 or fewer hit points, you gain 1 extra round of rage for that day. If that attack was a critical hit, you gain 1 additional extra round of rage for that day. Whenever you rest to renew your total number of rounds of rage per day, any extra rounds you still have from this feat are lost.

The only prerequisite for that feat is the "greater rage" class feature. The feat itself applies while raging, and doesn't involve greater rage specifically. Which means that if a barbarian always counts as having "greater rage" as a class feature, a barbarian could take this feat at level 1 and immediately benefit from it.

Since that doesn't make sense (why not simply require ordinary rage, in that case?), the only logical interpretation is that a barbarian doesn't count as having that class feature until level 11, and that the feat thus can't be taken until level 11.

That interpretation would then also apply to all other instances of "x class feature" as a prerequisite, as they should all work the same way.


Nice argument. :)


Reasonable.

It remains annoying that whole point of multiclassing is to not get locked into a class for a large number of levels, and that by design, this feat whose best (and only) use is relevant only to multiclassed characters requires that you get locked into a class for a large number of levels.

As a suggestion to all who read this from Google, I'll talk to my GM about creating a worse version of it (2 levels or something) that reduces the burden of specializing in a class to take a class feature so that you can take a feat that alleviates the burden of specializing in a class so that you can take a class feature.


Puck Norris wrote:
...whole point of multiclassing is to not get locked into a class for a large number of levels...

Is this generally considered true? It's not why I multiclass (on the rare occasions I do).

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, I multiclass to bring a little splash of something else to my character. It certainly isn't due to some arbitrary limit on class ratio.


Puck Norris wrote:

Reasonable.

It remains annoying that whole point of multiclassing is to not get locked into a class for a large number of levels, and that by design, this feat whose best (and only) use is relevant only to multiclassed characters requires that you get locked into a class for a large number of levels.

As a suggestion to all who read this from Google, I'll talk to my GM about creating a worse version of it (2 levels or something) that reduces the burden of specializing in a class to take a class feature so that you can take a feat that alleviates the burden of specializing in a class so that you can take a class feature.

That is not the "whole point" of multiclassing. The point is to allow you to mix and match classes. If you have to wait until level 15 in class X to get access to ability Y then you have to wait, even if you only need ability Y to take feat Z.


I've both multiclassed a lot and observed others multiclassing.
In my experienca it runs on two levels, generally simultaneously.

1) You dip briefly into classes to pick up low level tibits - Bonus feats, Class abilities (Evasion been a prime case) plump up a save or even just for roleplay. You don't take Shaping Focus type feats for this purpose, and most multiclass feats aren't designed for this.

2) You have a core class which is the main focus for you character but you have sacrificed levels to get bits and bobs of other classes. This is what most multiclass feats are designed for, including Shaping Focus. The limit of having to take 4 levels to get that class ability isn't really a limit because if the campaign is going any distance you are going to take those levels.

From a mechanical aspect there is also a good reason for limiting the feats to a moderate level commitment. Class abilities that kick in at 4th level tend to be gruntier abilities. Allowing someone to take just 1 or 2 levels of the class and 1 feat to get those grunty class abilities is a serious power boost to multiclassing. As a general rule this isn't the way PF has wanted to go. It's not a right/wrong question but it's a system choice question. PF focused on single or primary class characters. 3.5 was more multiclass up the wazoo. Horses for courses, You don't buy a race horse from a carthorse stables.

Contributor

Even at a level requirement of 4 levels, shaping focus is an incredibly powerful feat; arguably one of the most powerful multiclassing feats in the game. (The other really good ones are Horse Master, Monastic Legacy, and the Druid / Ranger multiclass feat.)

If you look at the list of Druid class features, almost EVERYTHING the druid gets after 4th level is additional uses of Wild Shape. That one feat allows you, for example, to multiclass Druid / Mythic Theurge and effectively loose out on nothing save the levels of druid spellcasting that you grabbed to get into the class to begin with.

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