Goblin Squad Member
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When you buy a 30-day game card from a game store, the time doesn't start counting down the minute you check out, but rather when you activate it by attaching it to an account. Why would you expect anything different from a character-based system?I certainly don't want someone who's training 4 characters simultaneously to be able to spend all 400 XP per hour on a single character.I am trying to figure out another way to explain, once again, that a situation like that is not what I'm talking about. Maybe there could be undefined character 'blanks' which could serve as XP collection points starting from the point of purchase rather than the point at which permanent features are set?
I could be wrong about what Keovar is getting at here, but let me speculate. Let's take the most obvious case. Destiny's Twin:
At the start of EE and for a goodly while after, the player may not be ready to commit to a choice of role for their Twin. Either because the are waiting for more core class options or they are waiting to try the game and see what role they might like for the Twin from the way things look.
Will a blank Twin spot accumulate exp when the spot is undefined, named, or even started?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sorry but it just seems inescapably obvious to me that we will perforce have to be able to create a Character before we can attach Training Time to it. Likewise, it seems inescapably obvious to me that we'll be able to create both our Main and our Destiny's Twin before we attach any Training Time to our Main.
I don't believe that Destiny's Twin is intended to provide the same type of flexibility as simply buying additional Training Time for an Alt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar, I believe at this point (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) the idea is still that we can make accounts and characters without any training time purchased. Which would mean you can create the account, make your character, and then activate your subscription/purchase the training time. Not sure how the "bonus" training time from the kickstarter is going to be factored into that...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see. The proposal is:
You have your subscription and are paying for it. Once you are paying for it you start accumulating experience for 1 character (2 if it is a destiny twin account).
If for some reason you are delayed in creating your character (server instability, work, personal reasons) your character will accumulate this experience until you can get him made.
This makes a lot of sense. It takes the pressure off of GW. They do not have to worry about a specific time to open the servers and there is less worry that every body that is going to start EE tries to log on in minute one of availability.
It also lets people that want to get their specific look/setup have the time without worrying about falling behind.
I know I would be disappointed if EE started while I was on a business trip or working.
It seems like a win/win.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see. The proposal is:
You have your subscription and are paying for it. Once you are paying for it you start accumulating experience for 1 character (2 if it is a destiny twin account).
If for some reason you are delayed in creating your character (server instability, work, personal reasons) your character will accumulate this experience until you can get him made.
This makes a lot of sense. It takes the pressure off of GW. They do not have to worry about a specific time to open the servers and there is less worry that every body that is going to start EE tries to log on in minute one of availability.
It also lets people that want to get their specific look/setup have the time without worrying about falling behind.
I know I would be disappointed if EE started while I was on a business trip or working.
It seems like a win/win.
That seems, to me, to be what Keovar is getting at. It may well be that, that is the plan already. It may not be.
In any case, it is a good thing to consider.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know I would be disappointed if EE started while I was on a business trip or working.Has there ever been an MMO that started your subscription when the game went Live instead of when you actually activated it?
As far as I know - EVE is the only MMO where your subscription or paid training time has anything to do with your character.
All the MMOs that I have played are level based and the levels are earned by killing monsters and completing quests.
I have never played a game where you get experience when you are not logged in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andas, does that really change anything?
In other MMOs, your subscription allows you to login to the game. Yet, those games don't start counting down the time left on your month's worth of subscription until you activate that subscription by attaching it to a specific account.
I find it literally impossible to believe that Goblinworks is going to start ticking off our subscriptions the minute the game goes live, rather than waiting until we activate them by attaching them to a Character (or a Character plus a Destiny's Twin).
In fact, Ryan has stated this directly.
If you are a Crowdforger, Crowdforger Buddy, Crowdforger Alpha or Crowdforger Guild backer you'll get several months of subscription time with your pledge. You can choose how and when to use that game time; you can use it immediately when you're granted access to the game, or you can wait and not start play until the game has reached Release, or you could use some time in Early Enrollment and some after Release. You'll be able to control when your subscription time is being used.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Is the objection that a player who began on day 1 would be a day ahead of one who activated on day 2, probably forever? My estimate is that after a week or so, the experience from one day will be a rounding error, and very soon not even that much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find it literally impossible to believe that Goblinworks is going to start ticking off our subscriptions the minute the game goes live, rather than waiting until we activate them by attaching them to a Character (or a Character plus a Destiny's Twin).
I'd think that GW might benefit from having the first 4500 players enter the game in a staggered fashion, rather than having the server subject to a mini DoS attack at the moment of launch. They could avoid that by character creation pre-launch, or by having blank characters (but maybe not destiny twins) pre-loaded for the cadres of known EE players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does not seem a problem to me that a 'character slot' could accrue xp that would be preserved for the creation of the character to fill it. I don't know what GW's PoV would be on that, but to me it would be rather like setting out a second pair of shoes that will be there when I choose to step out in them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I do think would be useful is the ability to rename Characters at will up until they actually log into the game. That way, if we have a DT but don't have any idea what we want to do with it, we can postpone that crucial naming decision :)
Keovar's point is also in being able to change race, gender, looks, basically everything about said character until they actually log into the game. That way experience can accrue even before that first log in. The purposes for doing so are likely not too dissimilar from wanting to be able to change the name.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm, now that I think on it, I believe the issue I was bringing up would be resolved by the nature of the DT's and the fact that GW has said before you can micromanage your own training time between several characters (so, for example, you can buy a month training time, spend 10 days on one character, next 10 days on a second one, and final 10 days on the first again).
To be clear (because I think I've muddled myself with thinking too hard on it), is the idea right now that we make a queue for skill training, that our training gives us a constantly filling "pool", some combination of those, or neither?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Shane Gifford, if you're asking about GW's announced plan, then that plan is that you will allocate Training Time to a specific Character and that Character will receive a constant flow of 100 XP per hour while that Training Time is active.
Destiny's Twin doesn't receive Training Time directly, but gains XP at the same rate as your declared Main whenever that Main is gaining XP. It is my understanding that you can only create the relationship between your DT and your Main once, and that it can't be modified after that. So, don't delete your Destiny's Twin or you might lose it forever.
Hopefully, it's not really necessary to always add "things may change" :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does not seem a problem to me that a 'character slot' could accrue xp that would be preserved for the creation of the character to fill it.Good phrasing. I don't see a problem with that either.
I think you misunderstood my position.
That is essentially what I was trying to say. I want my subscription to start immediately and I want to accrue the experience until I have a chance to be in game.
If it is directly tied to a character (and not a slot) then I hope we have the opportunity to pre-roll the character so that it can be ready. I would hope for at least 1 week?
ie I want to start immediately, but if I am out of the country on business I won't have the time (or inclination) to try to generate a character and login right when the game goes live.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to start immediately, but if I am out of the country on business I won't have the time (or inclination) to try to generate a character and login right when the game goes live.
I also hope GW allows us to create our characters and attach our Training Time to them before they flip the switch on.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I want to start immediately, but if I am out of the country on business I won't have the time (or inclination) to try to generate a character and login right when the game goes live.I also hope GW allows us to create our characters and attach our Training Time to them before they flip the switch on.
This is also what I understand Keovar to want, with the addition tht he would like to attach the training time to the character, but not yet choose name, race, starting faction, and other irreversible decisions.
Without this option there is a risk of ending up either:
- losing XP that one is happy to pay for, for lack of a character attached to the Training Time
- OR ending up with a character that has a confused and unappealing RP theme because the race / name / whatever else doesn't fit the eventual concept
I can understand the concern. Time-in-game is the primary determinant of progress, so delaying character creation is unappealing. However for some people making an early decision on unchangeable aspects of your character concept is hard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to start immediately, but if I am out of the country on business I won't have the time (or inclination) to try to generate a character and login right when the game goes live.I also hope GW allows us to create our characters and attach our Training Time to them before they flip the switch on.
I definitely would like this. I can take a long time playing with the different controls to get my character just right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am also of the mindset that being able to "pre-gen" characters for main and DT before launch so that EXP can begin to be gained from moment of launch and not when I get around to login. Granted, I intend to take time off work and ship wife and kid to her mother's house for the week, but the likelihood of that happening is non-existent. Still, I understand Ryan's post about being able to control when and how our paid time is used, but if we are able to get in day one, then I don't see why people wouldn't want the exp gain to start day one, weather they are able to login and/or create a character on day one. especially if it is a midnight release or something like that.
Even though it is a different mechanic, I can tell you that each WoW release I was at was upsetting that I would finally be logged in after queues and drive time and all the delays to get in game, only to find people already dinging max level and server first for max crafting skill and such. I just get in and these guys have gotten in and maxed already where I didn't stand a chance. Again different mechanic but the concept of always being a few hundred exp behind others because they got in at the stroke of midnight and I was out of country or stuck in a server queue.
Anyway, I guess enough have spoken that the Devs should have heard and understand the concern by now. only thing we can do is wait for their decision and just deal with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I plan on rolling both my main and my DT at the same time. Then I will alternate play time within the two, until OE. Once OE begins, my main will take up about 80% of my game time, and my DT maybe just once per week.
Both will have an equal amount of xp, based on my understanding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, there were many who seem to get what I am saying. Yes, I'd like the character slot to accrue exp, so we are not losing experience by having a delay in the time between the subscription starts and character creation completes. Day-one server crashes (or clients crashing your own computer at a critical point) are just the easy examples.
I would like some time to get to know the game and see what needs I or my community have, and what roles become available, before defining permanent things (name, race, looks, etc.) about my DT or other characters. I'd need to define them before playing them, but I don't want to be pushed to define them just to allow them to sit on my character roster because I'd be wasting exp. if I don't.
Maybe I'd like a crafter but I want to wait on gnomes, maybe I want an elven archer but would rather wait on rangers than to hack together some fighter/rogue approximation.
Having a way to play with or even pre-create my main would be nice too. Even better would be a way to allow some tweaks for a short time after you begin playing the character, so if everyone's face looks practically the same or if the lighting in the actual play environment makes the colours look wrong, you could fix stuff like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So let's see what this looks like as an ideal case. If your vision varies simply post what you imagine it would look like and how it would work.
Currently, and for the last while, my ideal main would be a druid, yet druids we know will be late to arrive in the game.
At the start of EE my impression is that characters we build are expected to survive EE into OE We will know the races but not all are expected to be available.
We expect that when races like the Gnomes are brought to life we will have a window of opportunity to convert them. For those of us who envision our characters as one of the races that will be active we would prefer to be able to create the basis of the character and establish the character's name, perhaps attributes.
In the case of the Gnome we would at least be able to establish a name. If we wished to play in-game with that character that will convert to Gnomism, we could fashion a proxy character with any attributes we will wish for our gnome but in the skin of a human, elf, or dwarf.
Then when experience can accumulate that experience we accrue will be assignable to that character name. And once our character is able to enter the world we would already have that xp pool to begin to capitalize.
And in our ideal we envision having the privilege of creating our character before the world opens so that it might be ready to accrue experience even if we are travelling on business at the time the world actually becomes available.
And finally we should have the ability to create an world-system scouting alt to check out the world but is not our main or DT, even though xp is already accruing to the main and DT character slots so that our character builds might be committed only after we are adequately informed by our game-world scouting alt.
What are your thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you know you eventually want to make a gnome druid, you could make a dwarf with a gnomish name as your DT and let it sit until gnomes and druids are available, along with the race-swap token you'd need to make a gname like 'Gizmofidget Gloriander' make any sense. I assume that the race change would also include a face change, since dwarves are unlikely to grow bright cyan hair, while gnomes can.
But if you don't have a set idea of what will be interesting to do with the DT (or additional purchased slots), it would be better not to define the name. Maybe you see your druid as a gnome but you could also go with a halfling paladin. The names appropriate to each could (and should) vary a lot. If you care about naming, then having to define the name early (so you don't waste exp.) means you're having to decide something about what you'll eventually want before you have any experience with the game, and idea of the interests that your first character isn't fulfilling, or roles your community may need more of.
If the character slot itself, or an undefined 'blank' sitting in it, will collect exp. starting from the beginning, then you don't lose out because of tech issues, life-imposed interruptions, or simply the desire to explore a while before locking in every character you may eventually want to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wanted my main to be a gnome, which sort of rules out the idea of making a proxy character and leaving him in reserve. I think what's likely to happen for me is that I play as a dwarf until gnomes are released, then change race on my main and I may or may not buy a name change depending on whether I can do that when I change race. No big deal.
My bigger problem is I don't know what kind of character I want for my DT. I think I want it vaguely combat focused, but I don't have any concrete ideas beyond that. I suppose I could just roll a generic human to accrue exp and fill in the blanks later, though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Direct question to the devs.
Can you look into, and determine if it will be feasible to, award exp to the character slot weather a character resides there or not? The idea was presented above, but I ask directly again. If nothing else, can this be a "feature" for EE? Then again, if it can be done in EE, I don't see why it couldn't be done for all accounts.