Super simple question, and It makes sense either way but I cant find any rules on it.
Can I as a Druid or someone casting Beast shape, decide to go into the shape of a creature that's larger or smaller than the actual creature?
IE, At level 8 could i decide to turn into a Huge or Large badger or Wolverine, for example?
Since the stats are based on SIZE and not the individual ANIMAL, i see no reason why not.
And if so, does it/could it work the other way,
Like turning into a diminutive Wolf.
You can't, as the rules are written, since wild shape references the beast shape spells, which in turn use the polymorph rules:
Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
Since two such templates increase/decrease size by one step, it's safe to assume that this rule applies to a plain size-change as well.
However, you're right in that there's not really anything to be mechanically gained by allowing it; at least not substantially so.
At least one of the developers has expressed that he would have liked to see the polymorph spells as building blocks of sorts, where you would pick a certain number of abilities you wanted (limited in number by each spell) and which made some kind of sense for the creature, rather than needing to mimic specific creatures from the Bestiary.
In other words, ask your GM. He/she might allow it :)
So what I'm gathering is essentially: Its not game breaking, so Your GM shouldn't have a problem with it.
And i'm not really adding a template onto a creature, I'm making a creature Large based on not the template, but the spell.
I still only get a +6 to str and AC, regardless if Its a Huge Badger or a Dire bear.
furthermore, Do i get say, If i turn into a Wolly Rhino, Do i get Powerful charge, Is it on the same level as Rake and Pounce.
Or powerful bite?
You get exactly what the relevant spell says you get. No more, no less.
So what I'm gathering is essentially: Its not game breaking, so Your GM shouldn't have a problem with it.
And i'm not really adding a template onto a creature, I'm making a creature Large based on not the template, but the spell.
I still only get a +6 to str and AC, regardless if Its a Huge Badger or a Dire bear.
furthermore, Do i get say, If i turn into a Wolly Rhino, Do i get Powerful charge, Is it on the same level as Rake and Pounce.
Or powerful bite?
1) Normally I would rule you can't become a huge wolverine, since you have to be familiar with the animal you wildshape into. So, if there aren't any huge wolverines, you wouldn't know how to be a huge wolverine. I mean, if that's not the case, what's the point? Plus, even though you might not adjust Strength and say, "Hey, no real change" that wouldn't really be accurate. Your AC changes based upon size. Your ability to grapple changes with size (and what can grapple you). So, you have to think it through. Given all the problems that it produces, I would just say "no" to your idea, but every GM is different.
2) As for which special abilities you get for the creature you choose, you have a list provided in Beast Shape spells. If it's not on the list, you don't get it. You also don't get the creatures feats/skills like improved critical. You only get the natural attacks and the listed options under beast spell if the creature has that ability. Now, if you choose a magical creature and it has a crazy kind of attack like phasing, you probably get it, since I can't think of any reason to be a magical creature otherwise.
Anyway, that's how I read it and have played it in the past.
As far as I'm concerned, "Huge or Diminutive animal" needs clarification. Cause a Huge squirrel is still Huge. Don't be so goddamn sassy.
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Can I as a Druid or someone casting Beast shape, decide to go into the shape of a creature that's larger or smaller than the actual creature?
No, you can only take the form of the bestiary write up.
Doing so would be applying a template.
You also can't be an advanced in HD version of something (like constrictor snake) if it doesn't have a write up.
Id say it has nothing to do with the Write up, an animal is an animal.
And, like i said before, It's NOT a template because you're NOT using animal rules you're using Wild Shape/Beast Shape rules. I wouldn't be playing as a Dire Wolf, I'd be playing as Myself - any AC I cant have, +or- any Ability Score that applies, +or- and AC that's granted by the spell level that LOOKS LIKE a Dire Wolf, along with it's natural attacks.
(I'd also argue for special abilities like powerful charge or powerful bite, assuming I had at least Wild shape 4 which you get at 10th level.)
Or rather,
You're not transforming into an animal from the bestiary, you're assuming it's form and granting yourself natural attacks, Ability Score changes, Natural Armour changes, Movement, Senses, and abilities.
Roleplay wise I always tend to adopt Mannerisms based on the animal, too.
There's no logical reason you could turn into a boa constrictor but not an Anaconda.
As far as I'm gonna play it: If the Games not broken it doesn't matter.
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Id say it has nothing to do with the Write up, an animal is an animal.
To agree with that, you need to find a rule to back up your position.
You can't.
Also, there is a FAQ ont he Eagle Shaman that makes it clear that the Eagle Shaman can not shape into Huge Roc but that an exception would be made for the archetype. The Exception would be unnecessary if your rules interpretation was correct.
Doesn't work, sorry.
Its only problematic for the non saurian shamans.
Doesn't work, sorry.
Its only problematic for the non saurian shamans.
Which is a perfect explanation for why our group allows it. Because we don't want every druid shaman to be saurian shaman, and giving other shamans the same ability as saurian shamans is clearly not overpowering anything.
Sure, by the poorly written RAW you can't do it. But we do it anyway.
do saurian shamans get to increase their size?
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do saurian shamans get to increase their size?
They have an identical ability:
At 6th level, a saurian shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level –2. If she takes on the form of a reptile or a dinosaur, she instead uses her druid level +2.
So I'm not following how they are different.
The difference is, there are lots of dinosaurs. A bear shaman is stuck with 'large bear' if they want to take advantage of their level+2 wild shape. A saurian shaman can turn into a huge dinosaur or a tiny dinosaur or a variety of inbetween dinosaurs.
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The difference is, there are lots of dinosaurs. A bear shaman is stuck with 'large bear' if they want to take advantage of their level+2 wild shape. A saurian shaman can turn into a huge dinosaur or a tiny dinosaur or a variety of inbetween dinosaurs.
Not all options need to be super-effective. Some people will take an option for flavor reasons without needing it to be effective.
I've played as a bear shaman myself, for flavor reasons. But occasionally (especially after the TPK) I found myself wishing I hadn't played as a class that was more-or-less unconditionally worse than another, similar class.
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I've played as a bear shaman myself, for flavor reasons. But occasionally (especially after the TPK) I found myself wishing I hadn't played as a class that was more-or-less unconditionally worse than another, similar class.
Two solutions:
1) Go to the GM and say "the rules don't allow me to but could you make some rules for be doing a Huge Bear?"2) Retrain out of Bear Shaman to something else?
That works better if you do it before the lich kills you and all your allies. Anyway, my purpose here was to explain what the wolf guy and dragon dude meant about saurian shamans not being subjected to the same limitations as other shamans, not to demand more balanced classes.
do saurian shamans get to increase their size?They have an identical ability:
At 6th level, a saurian shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level –2. If she takes on the form of a reptile or a dinosaur, she instead uses her druid level +2.So I'm not following how they are different.
Its about their options. The bear shaman has medium and large bears and.. thats it.
The dino shaman has access to everything from a small Compsognathus to a huge stegosaurus, including flight, scent, swim speeds pounce.. whatever you need.
Its about their options. The bear shaman has medium and large bears and.. thats it.
They can summon medium (and larger) bears, and have medium bears as animal companions, but not wild shape into medium bears.
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In the end, one option is better than several others. Which is by design.
Why design to have an archetype that is decidedly worse than the original class or other similar archetype? If the PDT is going to put out archetypes with specific abilities that require a variety of bears or sharks or wolves, then why would they have a complete dearth of animals to make the archetype viable.
Easiest solution, announce that they are releasing a splat book filled with templates versions of each shaman type for each size category. Make each animal with PFS in mind. Boom. $19.95 to play your flavor of Shaman Druid. If they wanted to beef it up, add in some feats or specialty animals with unique abilities. Two-headed wolf for two bites. Horned bear with powerful charge and gore attack. A shark with a "freaking' laser beam" on its head. This at least provides a PFS-legal way to equalize the archetypes AND earns some money in the process.
Because realism. Just as the longbow made slings obsolete, dinosaurs are better than bears. Historical fact, dude! While it's true that bear shamans were still in use as recently as the Portuguese Restoration War of 1668, that's only because they were easier to train.
The difference in options for a saurian shaman vs other forms of shaman are so ridiculously unfair that it beggars belief that any developer could have conceived of such a cluster f*.
Saurian shamans can choose from ANY dinosaur that ever lived, along with a wide variety of non dinosaurs that are lumped together as dinosaurs by the public. The result is that saurian shamans can choose any form of animal from tiny to colossal for any sort of terrain including water or flying.
Other druid shamans get to choose from, at most, a single family and in some cases a single GENUS. The disparity is like the difference between a single brand of gum vs having access to every form of candy ever created in the entire history of humanity.
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Except the limitation of your options to particular animals of different sizes is why you get the +2 level bonus. If you want the versatility to get any ability (trip, pounce, etc) at any size, you play a standard Druid. If you want to, quite literally, min/max your favorite wild shape form (max), the price is versatility of other forms you don't use (min).
I would agree except the Saurian Shaman is a perfect antithesis of your argument. It has the +2 level bonus and almost every bonus ability and size category. Versatility and min/maxing the "reptilian" wild shape form.
I must say, I find this thread interesting. You come on here asking a question about the rules, and then say "As far as I'm gonna play it: If the Games not broken it doesn't matter."
This of course begs the question why in the world you would post your question in the rules section in the first place. Apparently you only like answers that agree with your position. If you want commentary on your homebrew solutions, there is a forum for that. If you want comments on the actual rules as written, well this is the forum.
What, the medium-sized black bear doesn't count?Its about their options. The bear shaman has medium and large bears and.. thats it.They can summon medium (and larger) bears, and have medium bears as animal companions, but not wild shape into medium bears.
No, not according to strict RAW, as the black bear is created by applying a template to the grizzly bear. As the polymorph rules don't allow templated versions of animals, the black bear is off the table s a wild shape option.
To generate stats for a smaller bear (like a black bear), you can apply the young simple template to the grizzly bear's stat block. To generate stats for a larger grizzly or a polar bear, apply the advanced simple template to the grizzly's stats.
Of course, it would certainly make sense to allow the black bear as a wild shape option.
(more accurately, it doesn't make sense to call out a number of animals as being created by applying this or that template, and then prohibit those animals from wild shape, which is what the rules actually do).
You can't, as the rules are written, since wild shape references the beast shape spells, which in turn use the polymorph rules:
Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.Since two such templates increase/decrease size by one step, it's safe to assume that this rule applies to a plain size-change as well.
However, you're right in that there's not really anything to be mechanically gained by allowing it; at least not substantially so.
Size has a substantial impact, it affects damage die, CMB/CMD calculations, the number of spaces you occupy on the map, and squeezing rules. It is certainly not a trivial change.
I didn't intend to say that size itself doesn't have a substantial impact. It clearly does.
My intention was that the difference between a Large X (allowed) and a Large Y (not allowed) won't usually be substantial.
I suppose if there's a forest out there inhabited by naturally-occurring Huge megaweasels, then megaweasel ought to be fair game so long as it's an animal and the druid is knowledgeable about them. Like most things, that goes straight back to GM discretion. Going by blind RAW, there are no megaweasels, and black bears are technically disallowed because they're generated via template.
RAI: I suspect the intent of the prohibition on using templated creatures is to prevent the druid from changing into a modified version of an animal's normal adult state (such as changing into a young moose or a giant platypus), not to prevent the druid from changing into a normal adult animal whose stat blocks happen to be generated via a template to save Paizo a bit of money printing extra pages for mostly redundant stats. For this reason, I would allow wild shaping into a black bear, an anaconda, or, in a hypothetical campaign world with the Forest of Megaweasels, a megaweasel. I would not allow changing into a young brown bear or a giant weasel, though, because those are not the normal adult state of those respective creatures.