Oracle - Sidestep Secret / Nature's Whispers - The differences, why??

[Remy Balster]

The Lore Mystery and Nature Mystery revelations are similar. But they have interesting differences.

Sidestep Secret:

Spoiler:

*Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity(see FAQ.)

Nature's Whispers:

Spoiler:

Nature’s Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.

I bolded the benefit, and italicized the restriction. Notice that Sidestep Secret has a FAQ.

Here it is:

Spoiler:

Oracle: Does an oracle of lore with the sidestep secret (page 50) revelation use her Charisma to calculate her CMD instead of her Dexterity? If she is flat-footed, does she lose her Charisma bonus to AC?

An oracle of lore with the sidestep secret revelation uses her Dexterity to calculate her CMD since no provision is made in the text to use her Charisma for that statistic. She does, however, lose her Charisma bonus to AC whenever she is flat-footed, since her Charisma modifier is being used in place of her Dexterity modifier.

—Jason Bulmahn, 07/08/11

I bolded the weird parts.

This is weird because that is true of Nature's Whispers, as described in Nature's Whispers. "Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class." But it is not described as such in Sidestep Secret. Instead, Sidestep explicitly calls out Max Dex. If it is true that they both lose their charisma modifier without having to write it into the ability... why is it written into Nature's Whispers in the first place? And how can this be true that they lose their Cha bonus with Sidestep Secret, since no provision is made in the text for this to occur.

My original reading of these two abilities was that they offer slightly different benefits, with different restrictions. But this FAQ response seems to indicate that Nature's Whispers simply has less restriction. Or does it have the same restriction as Sidestep Secret of Max Dex applying as well??

And if they BOTH have the same exact restrictions, why do they have different restrictions in their descriptions??

[Akinra]

Personally, I feel that Sidestep Secret (Lore), Nature's Whispers (Nature0, and Prophetic Armor (Lunar) should all be treated the same. Further, there are substantive difference in the armor effects of the varied oracles that should probably be shored up. Some of the armors are conjured (thus likely able to be affected by spell effects) and some are not.

I think this is more than likely due to who was assigned to draft which section of the oracle mysteries.

[James Risner]

A question on this last week, and probably one a week.

They do different things. One applies to AC and Reflex and the other on AC and CMD.

[Remy Balster]

James Risner wrote:

A question on this last week, and probably one a week.

They do different things. One applies to AC and Reflex and the other on AC and CMD.

You will notice, that isn't what is being asked.

[James Risner]

Remy Balster wrote:

If it is true that they both lose their charisma modifier without having to write it into the ability... why is it written into Nature's Whispers in the first place?

Ok, they both lose their CHA to AC when flat foot.

You must understand the rules are written by different people and that you often have to use some interpretation when evaluate a rule.

There are a lot of assumptions in the rules that do not need to be stated.

[Kazaan]

The difference is a thematic one. I went over this in another thread and I'll reprise it here. Sidestep Secret is like Matrix bullet-time dodging. Instead of relying on your agility to get out of the way, you're relying on your confidence and force of personality to anticipate the attack and drift away from it at the last possible second. This is why it's affected by max Dex bonus on Armor; you're still relying on moving your body, but it's fueled by Cha rather than Dex. By contrast, Nature's Whispers is a much more soft ability that doesn't involve physically avoiding the attack, but simply knowing where it will be and not being there.

To illustrate, consider the following: two characters, one with Sidestep Secret, the other with Nature's Whisper, are walking through a hail of arrows. The one with Sidestep Secret is actively dodging the arrows; it looks like several might hit him, but he manages to twist and arch in ways that don't quite seem natural, even dodging ones he couldn't possibly have known about. He moves like an Agent dodging bullets, basically. The one with Nature's Whispers, on the other hand, is merely walking, making no attempt to evade... but none of the arrows touch him. He knew where those arrows were going to fly long before they were fired, possibly before they were even crafted. He walks calmly through the places he knows no arrows will be.

Regarding more mechanical differences, Sidestep is a Su ability while Nature's is Ex, so Sidestep shuts down if magic is shut down, but not Nature's. Also, Nature's affects AC and CMD but not Reflex while Sidestep affects AC and Reflex but not CMD. Honestly, I think Nature's Whispers is inherently the stronger of the two.

[Remy Balster]

I know that they affect different things. I get that.

The question is about the restrictions.

Sidestep says it is affected by max dex. Nature's whispers says you lose the benefit when denied dex.

They each describe 1 single limiting factor. Each is a different limiting factor. BUT!!

The FAQ says that sidestep ALSO loses the cha bonus when flat footed. Implying that you lose your cha to AC when denied your dex. BUT!!

Sidestep is the one that says it is restricted by MAX DEX. It is Nature's Whispers that says you lose that CHA bonus when denied dex.

Why do they have different restrictions when in fact Sidestep is still held to be limited by the same thing that Nature's Whispers is held to. EVEN THOUGH it isn't specifically written in the description.

And why does the FAQ say that Sidestep Secret doesn't apply to CMD BECAUSE of the fact that it isn't specifically written in the description AND THEN go on to make up stuff about that ISN'T WRITTEN in the description about losing dex when flat footed.

And why do they have different restrictions listed if they both have the same restrictions??

[Deadkitten]

Thats what bugged me about the Lunar Mystery and the Prophetic Armor revelation.

Prophetic Armor (Ex): You are so in tune with your primal nature that your instincts often act to save you from danger that your civilized mind isn’t even aware of. You may use your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) as part of your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma, instead.

I know that different people work on different things but apart from the flavor part of the ability it is exactly the same as Sidestep Secret. The release of this revelation was no help to this issue over how these abilities work. especially considering it was released after the FAQ in regards to Sidestep Secret. one would think that it would have been worded like natures whispers.

RAW: sidestep secret and prophetic armor replace your dex with charisma and make it significantly harder to trigger sneak attack against you since you can no longer be denied your dex bonus to AC.

RAI: I guess if thats how they wanted it to work thats how it should, but if that was the case they should not have printed another ability that works the same. that is just irritatingly poor communication.

[CWheezy]

So with nature's whispers, you get your cha to ac, even when wearing full plate? That is pretty sweet

[Steve Shippy aka Beerwolf]

The maximum dexterity bonus still applies to the armor.

[Kazaan]

Steve Shippy aka Beerwolf wrote:

The maximum dexterity bonus still applies to the armor.

By RAW, it doesn't for Nature's Whispers; Charisma isn't Dexterity. If Max Dex applied to Charisma automatically, it wouldn't have to state that conditions that would normally deny your Dex bonus to AC instead affect Cha because that would be automatic as well. It's the exception that proves the rule. Strictly speaking, that also means that conditions that deny Dex to AC would not affect Sidestep Secret. I can see that as being thematically plausible if you go with the theme of "bullet-time dodging" and the fact that it's a supernatural ability; you're, at least partially, disregarding conventional physics in the way you avoid attacks. By contrast, flat-footed and other denied dex conditions would be quite detrimental to a Nature's user since they do kind of have to be able to stay in motion to be in those "attack gap" spots. But the FAQ provides more of an Errata in that case; you need a specific change like that to change the wording of Nature's Whispers for it to also be subject to Max Dex. They're different abilities that function differently with different strengths and different weaknesses; there's no need to distill it down to the point that all abilities are the same. Diversity is good and everyone will have their own preference of one over the other. I personally feel that Nature's Whispers is the stronger ability, but Lore mystery is better as a whole. Honestly, I think the Sidestep FAQ should be partially redacted to promote more diversity between the two.

[James Risner]

Deadkitten wrote:

RAW: sidestep secret and prophetic armor replace your dex with charisma and make it significantly harder to trigger sneak attack against you since you can no longer be denied your dex bonus to AC.

Both abilities work the same regarding Max Dex, and since both say "instead" they are both limited by max dex whether it says it or not.

If the abilities were written like this:
You do not apply your Dexterity modifier to AC. You may apply your Charisma modifier to AC.

Then you wouldn't worry about Max Dexterity.

[Cyrad]

This kind of thing annoys me. Phantom Touch has a similar problem.

Ancestor Mystery

Spoiler:

Phantom Touch (Su): As a standard action, you can perform a melee touch attack that causes a living creature to become shaken. This ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your oracle level (minimum 1 round). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Occult Mystery

Spoiler:

Phantom Touch (Su): As a standard action, you can perform a melee touch attack that causes a living creature to become shaken. This ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your oracle level (minimum 1 round). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. At 5th level, the target instead becomes frightened, and at 7th level the target becomes panicked.

It's just...why? Why do this? If they're going to basically copy/paste the same ability to different mysteries, why can't they at least keep them consistent?

[James Risner]

Cyrad wrote:

Ancestor Mystery

Occult Mystery
If they're going to basically copy/paste the same ability to different mysteries, why can't they at least keep them consistent?

You presume it was a bad copy/paste job and it may very well have been.

It could also have been deliberate, with the Occult Mystery version intended to be weaker.