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Hi guys just a quick query. Now I'm basing my campaign off of Andoran and I am still trying to exactly comprehend exactly how Andoran's government truly works. For those who don't know I will explain.
The republic of Andoran is both driven and solidified by one underlying force: the fear of a return to tyranny. Within the republic, the more influential one becomes, the greater the public scrutiny, as there is an inherent distrust among Andorens for those with too much power and authority. As such the higher one climbs in the democratic government or the more wealth one accumulates, the greater the social pressure to be charitable and promote good works.
Now when Cheliax was overthrown by the rebellion, Andoran chose to redistribute land allowing the nobles of the once mighty Cheliax to keep some of their property but returning the rest to the people. These lands were then divided into municipalities with each represented in the government by a duly elected councilor who sits on the peoples council.
The people's council consists of 350 seats or 350 people as it were. Once the council has been elected by each municipality, the council elects a mayor for each municipality to help prevent corruption by the politicians from bribing, threatening, or otherwise manipulating the local populace into electing them as mayor and the council bases its decisions solely on a mayor's credentials and merits.
In addition to each municipality, each major guild such as the merchant guild and the trade guilds have a representative on the people's council with almost every trade having a voice on the council.
The peoples council also has ministers, consuls, and a supreme elect of whom which are also included in the council. The supreme elect is the one who heads the peoples council and pretty much rules all of Andoran.
Now with all this info I have a couple of questions on stuff which I am confused about:
1)I don't fully understand the election of the councilors and mayors and how much power each has or what they devote their responsibilities too. Is the councilor head of the munincipality or is it the mayor? Can neither be a head and can there be like a supreme leader of both? Are both given some kind of incentive by the people's council when elected to keep them from becoming corrupt or do they have their full focus on their organization or munincipality?
2)What exactly counts as a munincipality? I know there are city, states, and even guilds as was mentioned in the companion book but the book mentions 350 councilmen whom are elected for each munincipality and there are sure a hell of alot less than 350 citys or states within Andoran, atleast thats what the book tells me. So is the rest like just a bunch of other unnamed organizations that the gm makes up or what?
3)What exactly are the responsibilities of a cabinet, minister, or a supreme elect? Is the supreme elect kind of like a king or a president? And is his rule controlled by the council or does he choose the decisions for the country without question?
If anyone has any information on this please let me know. I'm truly fascinated by what I've read in the companion book about this country and am eager to get a proper understanding of how this country runs on a daily basis. Thanks so much! :)
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I don't think there's been much more published on Andoren politics than you already have. I suspect, since the republic has a very early-USA vibe to it, that there would be some manner of division of powers between the supreme elect and the people's council in the interest of placing checks and balances on any one governmental agency. I would guess that each municipality would have some manner of town council as well, though it might only serve an advisory function, with the mayor holding ultimate authority.
As for what counts as a municipality, I would guess that not all of them are the same size. Andoran is actually a pretty big country, geographically speaking, so there are probably all sorts of unremakable villages and small towns that don't show up on the map or get mentioned in print.
The recent storyline within the Andoren faction in Pathfinder Society involves corruption within the People's Council, so that's certainly a problem. I would assume that council members aren't above the law, so they could presumably be prosecuted if there were evidence of them taking bribes or abusing their power. If nothing else, the church of Abadar takes a very dim view of corruption in government and the courts, and they're pretty strong in Andoran.
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Paizo has, by and large, avoided the nitty-gritty of political systems, preferring to focus on getting to the adventure stories, which is eminently reasonable. It does, however, leave those of us who would like to leverage some of that into our stories a bit in the dark. Even so, I think we can make a few assumptions based on the source material for Andoran (Nascent republics like Revolutionary America or France) and some simple logistics.
1) According to Andoran: Spirit of Liberty, The People's Council appoints mayors over municipalities. This is, in theory, meant to keep mayors from using some sort of underhanded technique to get a local populace to elect them. With the People's Council nominally focused on national politics, Mayors would have broad local authority, probably commanding local government functionaries, such as the City Watch.
This seems ripe for political shenanigans from my point of view: The People's Council meets twice a year, thus it seems preposterous to presume that the council would have even superficial knowledge of what was going on outside of their own municipality. Thus, a Councilor and Mayor on the same corrupt page could make quite an effective little fiefdom. It's also worth noting that the major guilds have seats on the Council as well, the equivalent of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce having a vote in Congress. This would be why Falcon's Hollow is a wholly-owned corporate entity.
2) Paizo has always been vague about internal political divisions. The two most commons divisions would be by Geography (which would have the effect of diluting the votes of large municipalities) or by Population (which would give cities a disproportionate amount of power).
3) National policy is a fuzzy thing in Golarion. The capacity of any government to stretch its authority beyond the edge of its sword is limited. Andoran benefits from having a broadly popular political philosophy that, according to the book, encourages good citizenship across a broad swath of the non-Lumber Consortium population. The Ministers would likely be responsible for guiding policy under their purview. If traditionally divided, we're talking about foreign affairs, military management, and economic policy. Ministers, with guidance from the Supreme Elect, would set policy, and the Councilors would provide advice and consent. They would also, in all likelihood, be the source of information about the direction of policy. Still, national internal policy would be limited: sans a large national bureaucracy and the ability to convey information swiftly, their ability to enact policy would be limited.
In addition to the hundreds of municipalities, each
major guild of Andoran has a representative on the
People’s Council; from the merchants’ and bankers’ guilds
to the fishmongers’ and drovers’ guilds, every trade has
a voice on the council. The current number of seats on
the council is 350, though this can increase or decrease
through special legislation, such as would be required if
the country acquired or lost territory.
So the total number of council seats, including seats from municipalities and guilds.
There are "hundreds" of municipalities.
Upon the overthrow of the old nobility, the newly
formed government moved quickly to redistribute the
land, allowing those nobles who wisely capitulated to keep
a modest amount of property and wealth but returning the
rest to the people. In keeping with millennia of convention,
traditional lands were kept intact, divided as they already
were into municipalities, each represented in the central
government by a duly elected councilor who sat on the
People’s Council.
So each noble's estate is converted into a municipality. This could be a larger or smaller area, depending on the rank of the noble who previously held it. Large cities could even be considered municipalities in their own right.
In addition, each guild has a seat, and there are probably at least a hundred guilds in a sizable country.
So that covers the number of councilors fairly easily.
I imagine that the Peoples' Council is a national, or federal, legislature. Thus it creates law for the whole nation.
The Council appoints mayors for each municipality.
The council then, as a whole, appointed
mayors for each individual municipality. Thus far, this
system has worked to ensure a lack of corruption in local
governments, as local politicians cannot bribe, threaten,
or otherwise manipulate the local populace into electing
them as mayor, and the council bases its decisions solely
on a mayor’s credentials and merits.
So the mayor seems to act as the executive head of the municipality, something like the governor of a state/province.
The People’s Council meets in Almas once every 6
months, on the 15th of Erastus and Abadius, though any
minister, consul, councilor, or the Supreme Elect can
call a special session. All meetings are open to the public,
though for a citizen to speak while a session is underway is
cause for removal from the building.
Such meetings are presided over by the Supreme Elect.
The current Supreme Elect, Codwin I of Augustana, has
proven to be a wise, fair, and capable leader, and one who
seems determined not to show any favoritism toward his
home city. His first term ended in 4709, but such was his acclaim that he was immediately reelected by a landslide
Councilor's are members of the Council. The Supreme Elect is like a Prime Minister. Ministers are probably Council members given special duties to advise the Supreme Elect on a specific area of governance, like a Cabinet. Counsul's may be senior positions in the Council.
I imagine it works something like England's Parlimentary system. The citizens of a municipality elect their councilor directly. The Council as a whole will appoint the mayor (executive) for each municipality, with some deference to the suggestions of the local councilor. The Council also elects their own officers (consuls, and Supreme Elect). The Supreme Elect is also head of the government (national executive) and appoints his own ministers to advise him.
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Andoran's government does have a parliamentary feel to it. I imagine that there would be a great many checks and balances on the national and local level.
Weeeeelll, Checks and Balances are neat in theory, but operate well only in an environment of humble governance. It has been demonstrated time and again that even Parliaments have few restrictions on their authority, so long as sub-authorities follow their lead. I am a bit disappointed that we don't know more about the judiciary in Andoran, but, frankly, we know very little about judicial or law enforcement systems anywhere in Golarion - perhaps because so much of what adventurers do would be illegal in one for or another. It's worth noting that Judicial Review, the only power in the U.S. that could invalidate a law passed by Congress and signed by the President, was not explicitly written into the Constitution, but derived from reading several different passages by Chief Justice John Marshall, and that took 15 years after the Constitution was signed.
Also consider the Rump Parliament of the British Interregnum, which, with the support of the army, killed a king, outlawed its other house, and made adultery a capital offense.
None of this is to say that Andoran's People's Council is a tyrannical mob just yet, only that it's possible - very possible given the amount of authority concentrated into its hands. The fear of that creates tension and tension creates stories. The big challenge for Pathfinder is that it doesn't create stories of killing monsters and taking their stuff, those being the stories the game is designed to tell.
One thing I would like to see added to Andoran's politics is the existence of political parties. The Player's Companion makes clear that there is already an ideological divide between those who support the government unconditionally as a bulwark against tyranny and those who believe that constant betterment (often through sharp criticism) is a better protection. If the folk in Bellis felt that having the People's Council appoint their local mayor seemed a bit heavy-handed, that's also a story that could be told, if not one that's easy for Pathfinder to tell on the face of it.
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I'm going to hazard a guess that Paizo will focus on writing adventures. I think they will deliberately leave things like the functioning of a government to us GMs....now who was it that said the inner workings of government was like the makings of a sausage....its messy.
Was that Bismark who said that?
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Ok...I'm going to take a wild guess as to how Andoran's entire government probably works. Read it and tell me what you guys think:
Starting from the ground up, I think each municipality that exists within Andoran has different variations and sizes and not just sized down to just a single city. Like for example, Bellis and Fusil could both together be a munincipality because Fusil is a pretty small settlement and not too far off from Bellis with Bellis being somewhat larger than Fusil. Since both settlements work to mine lumber and fusil works to mine gems from a nearby deposit, it stands to most likely show that these 2 settlements could count as a municipality as both are similar, closer, and could most likely have similar problems with the region they're in compared to other cities in the realm.
Of course, these 2 settlements each have its own organizations, groups, guilds and what not that make up what it is today and those count as their own municipality or can count as a part of Bellis's municipality depending on where they are positioned within society and its people.
Each municipality will then take the time to elect their own councilor to represent them on the people's council. Each municipality will choose a candidate that is most logical for them to represent them on the council. He will receive a background check, approval by the people, and then he is sent to Almas to represent the people on the council.
After the people's council has been elected, they will all convene to assign mayor's to each appropriate municipality. Guilds and organizations will receive a manager to watch over them or a guildmaster whom represent the title of "mayor". Each mayor will receieve a background check, a look at their past crimes and deeds, and if they fit the position they will be assigned as mayor of that municipality.
Now the likely candidates are of course going to be someone whom was in a position of power or those whom have served Andoran's interests for many years. The municipality might not like it but hey they have to deal with it as this was approved by the council. And each municipality is not allowed to elect their own mayor simply to help prevent politicians from blackmailing, bribing, or intimidating the local people into putting them in power, which could result in future corruption in that municipality.
The mayor is obliged by the council and a representative will come by every now and then to check up on the local progressiveness by the municipality in their service to Andoran. Mayors are required to keep a record of all past crimes of those under them and to check with the council before making any future decisions for their own government.
Then when the supreme elect is chosen which is elected by the council his credentials are brought too and approved by the council. They take a look at his records, his background, his years of service to whatever patriotic organization he was apart of such as the eagle knights and then grant approval if the candidate is valid.
The council can group into select parties and have a candidate they feel will represent them as head of the council and seek approval however should this happen the vote of election will most likely fall to the people of Andoran but each candidate as mentioned before will be reviewed before put forth for election. If select parties do not agree on the election of a particular candidate and a majority vote that candidate out or make a sufficient argument then that candidate will not be part of the election.
Now as bookkeeper said it is possible that the whole people's council could go tyrannical given the right circumstances and this is kind of based on my campaign. Im still trying to figure out myself how to turn 350 people into tyrannical bureacrats at once which to me seems near impossible. So far all I got is holding their families for ransom and forcing them to do what they want but planning to capture 350 families in my opinion is a little extreme and if the organization such as the aspis consortium for example doesnt want it found out it could be very difficult to keep track of each councilmans activities as that could result spreading the resources of any extremely large organization pretty thin which would result in the word getting out to the supreme elect at some point.
Anyway...what do you guys think? This to me seems the most logical picture of how Andoran's government would work or could work.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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in a Pathfinder society scenaro recently, Colson (no, not that guy) has a nice little meltdown when he finds out Andoran is developing a career politician class, apparently in violation of the nation's laws.
Hope that helps.
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Background checks are a funny thing - how are they done? Does the Andoren constabulary maintain records that are readily accessible? Would Chelish records be admissible in such a case?
I think you've got a good start for a working model, but I would note one thing - given that the People's Council only meets twice a year, it is unlikely that mayors have to run all of their decisions by the Council. They'd be largely autonomous so long as they didn't do anything to annoy the local Councilor.
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Background checks are a funny thing - how are they done? Does the Andoren constabulary maintain records that are readily accessible? Would Chelish records be admissible in such a case?
I think you've got a good start for a working model, but I would note one thing - given that the People's Council only meets twice a year, it is unlikely that mayors have to run all of their decisions by the Council. They'd be largely autonomous so long as they didn't do anything to annoy the local Councilor.
Well when the council is not in session, I'd imagine all Councilors will be spending their daily allotment over watching their own municipality with each mayor 2nd in command to the councilor. Councilors collect issues of the municipality which are too much possibly for the mayors to handle and then they would probably take these issues nationaly. Not really sure what else councilors would be doing as part of their job whether they really do have supreme authority or just advising the mayors.
As for the background checks, I'd imagine that whomever holds the law in the candidates municipality will be required to send a copy of their records detailing that candidates past crimes. If he has committed no crimes the law, such as a sheriff or even a judge or guard captain, will issue a letter stating that that individual has committed no crimes and the letter will have the mayors signature for assured confirmation or whoever is currently in charge if the town is mayorless (and yes I know thats not a word lol) which I'd imagine would be like a town council or some advisor that serves lifelong to every mayor in authority.
Truthfully, I can't imagine anyone being viable for election if they had Chelaxian, Taldor, or even Isger blood in them as they could be an agent of that country. Nearly all of Andorans neighbors...well...hate Andoran pretty much except for the dwarves up north and Druma, whom have proven a good source for trade so unless it were a much needed special case I don't think they would have it on the council other than their ambassadors whom could probably attend council sessions if they would allow it.
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To corrupt a political system, you do the following:
Make sure you get rid of pesky non-career politicians. They have alternative careers if politicking fails them, so they have less incentive to be loyal.
Make sure nobody gets any real influence without producing blackmail-worthy situations. Ideally, you want every single person bound by you having stuff you could ruin their careers with.
Make sure you get your cronies on the parts of government that are protected from the law by classification. In particular, make sure the agencies and such that fight corruption are in your pocket.
Make sure what information comes from the political arena is shaped according to your desires. This is best done by mutual agreements rather than threats, because you may find yourself unable to enact said threats if you become outmaneuvered.
Make room in the laws for all sorts of extralegal shenanigans, disappearing people, torture, indefinite detainment, and so on, especially tied to crimes that are difficult to define. Such as, say, "helping the enemy", "treason", "working against the state" and so on.
It takes a while, but hey, it works every time.
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To corrupt a political system, you do the following:
Yes, but aren't we supposed to be talking about fictional countries here? :)
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Yes, but aren't we supposed to be talking about fictional countries here? :)To corrupt a political system, you do the following:
Well what Sissyl is talking about can apply to both fictional and nonfictional countries so its fine.
Speaking of which I'm starting to think of a really great way the council could end up corrupted myself. What if say for example the villain came along and managed to corrupt a politician with promises of more power and glory than what Andoran has to offer. One thing people have to realize is that in Andoran, they don't trust anybody who has too much money or power. They expect that person to start donating their hard working money to charity or help those who are down on their luck.
The lumber consortium is one such organization that has accumalated so much power that the people outright protest against the consortiums shady tactics with their employment such as abusing their workers and cheating them. The consortium could very well ally with the Aspis Consortium and together they could end up corrupting every politician on the council. Some nobles grow sick and tired of the "peasantry" citizens abusing the nobles and being granted so many rights.
Talking with each councilman, they themselves could choose to ally with the consortium so that they could remake the country to a more...stable economy in their favor. Should they refuse, possible blackmail or even threats of death would follow. As they continue corrupting more politicians or councilmen (sort of like spreading a virus in a good-working body or computer) the more power and resources they gain, leading to a possible return to tyranny to the good, honest, hard-working people of Andoran. :)
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Oh, I dare say they aren't my ideas. =)
An additional point is that the extralegal sphere expands in times of crisis and war. Thus, if you're not at war, start one as soon as possible. Preferably one that won't cost you all that much by fighting on your own ground, yet cannot be won. Andoran would probably start a War on Slavery against ill-defined enemies. That's a war that can go on for a very long time, and motivate all sorts of violations against what the country is founded on. If they find local slavery rings, even better, that will require a firm domestic security, which lets them control potential troublemakers. If no such activities exist, planting evidence of them usually works, especially if enough women and children were killed to make it convincing.
Other advantages of having perpetually ongoing wars is that voices that want to cut down on military spending will not be heard, you will have a seasoned army as a byproduct, and enough soldiers that you can then use to violently put down uprisings.
I'm going to hazard a guess that Paizo will focus on writing adventures. I think they will deliberately leave things like the functioning of a government to us GMs....now who was it that said the inner workings of government was like the makings of a sausage....its messy.
Was that Bismark who said that?
The inner workings of a Bismarck is creamy! You Otto look into it!
I'm pretty sure the nitty gritty is only involved if it has importance for the story plot points. Otherwise you,d ha ve nine hundred page appendixes on mail distribution and legislation on fishing quotas etc.. In every module of the month.
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
Fascism by the numbers, how is your state of golarion doing?
If it gets too bad there is always this.
http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations98ce.html
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With the inclusion of every trade guild on the People's Council, you open up some ripe opportunities for political shenanigans. The Lumber Consortium can put a huge amount of pressure on councilors from timber-heavy municipalities and the Banking Guild is already in the habit of extending credit - the management of which could dominate most of the other guilds.
All that being said, you'd still need a direct villain, preferably with minions, to run a Pathfinder game: political debates are awesome and I love them, but we've still got XP to earn!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Let's not forget the clever use of magic.
Getting senator suchandsuch to vote for your bill using charm person is a no brainer. Also easily detectable. So get him to vote against your bill. Magical compulsion will be found, but you're in the clear. You discredit your political opponents, and then call for another vote, and get a few more votes in sympathy/back benchers.
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Yes, but aren't we supposed to be talking about fictional countries here? :)To corrupt a political system, you do the following:
Well what Sissyl is talking about can apply to both fictional and nonfictional countries so its fine.
Heh, I know. I was just alluding to how much of that corruption is so obvious in our own political systems :) My own personal loathing of "career politicians" (whose priority is therefore to get re-elected rather than to do what is right) knows no bounds.
I wasn't pulling these out of thin air, you know. Kind of proud of the War on Slavery, though.
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Ok well (gods I hope my future players wont see this lol) what I have come up with so far is that the main villain is a fetchling assassin named Rhaegus whom was hired by the new king of cheliax to assassinate Codwin I and cause lots of political corruption so that he can send his armies in from the east and wipe the country off the face of the map.
Abrogail II son named Draego (whom assassinated his mother) is a half-fiend and some believe him to be the son of Asmodeus has decided enough is enough. It is time that Cheliax stop suffering the constant mockery of its distant neighboring country, the symbol of freedom and liberty Andoran, and reclaim what its rightfully his.
Rhaegus is a worshipper of Norgorber and he and his large team of assassins will infiltrate the people's council, bribing, blackmailing those who refuse to support him, and ultimately causing political strife with the people. His organization hides under Alma's sewer system where they secretly plot Codwin's demise. During this time, Codwins second term as supreme elect is almost up and time will soon convene for a new supreme elect to be chosen.
Rhaegus has taken the liberty of hiring a group of unfathomed humanoids (gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, and even human bandits) to join and work together for the promise of a better future. Some of these slavers, they've had enough of the constant abuse Andoran's officials have provided them and will work to raid and pillage distant settlements across various settlements which will serve to keep Andoran's government "distracted" while Rhaegus makes his move.
Once Codwin is dead, an election will commence between Brigrim Tell mayor of Bellis, Radas Menadian mayor of Augustana, and Johnathan Kent (whom Rhaegus has secretly kidnapped and is posing as) whom is a distant farmer and long been in the people's council. Rhaegus will have his competitors assassinated or detained to help ensure his way to power. Presenting false proof that Taldor is behind the happenings in Andoran, once he is supreme elect he will march on Taldor effectively sacrificing most of Andoran's people to the people whom are not responsible.
Once that is done he will send word to Draego, receive his reward and he will invade from the east and destroy Andoran. Simple plan, no? Not so much once the players intervene on Andoran's behalf lol.
In my campaign there is going to be alot of mystery. I want my players to figure out clues as they progress through the game as to whom could be responsible for all the happenings in Andoran so as to make things more interesting.
I'm currently basing my home campaign in Andoran and I've done a lot of research on the country and its people. A lot of what I can tell you has been said by others here, but I could show you my own plot if interested, and my take on the government if you're interested xLegionx.
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I'm currently basing my home campaign in Andoran and I've done a lot of research on the country and its people. A lot of what I can tell you has been said by others here, but I could show you my own plot if interested, and my take on the government if you're interested xLegionx.
Sure Id be interested to see what you came up with.