CEO, Goblinworks
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"Don't be a jerk" is a fantastic rule.
If you are in a situation where you have to decide "am I being a jerk?" Most of the time the answer is YES and NONE of the time is it a mistake to not do the thing that is potentially jerky.
We operate in real life under this rule all day. Driving? Don't be a jerk. At a concert? Don't be a jerk. At the bar? Don't be a jerk.
Somehow, some people seem to lose the ability to not be a jerk as soon as they're behind a computer screen alone in a room with anonymity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just thought of the name "Mundelanion FrostbellY". I have the feeling that the "name police" might start pointing to anything that doesn't fit within their vision of what is proper.
It's a minor irritant that the Y in Frostbelly is capitalized, but other than that, I don't see any problem in the name.
"Don't be a jerk" is a fantastic rule.
Honestly, not really. I'll let it go after this post, because I'm starting to feel like the guy that argues with Ryan the most (even though I like the guy), but let's just say when you're driving in your car, police enforce rules like:
-Don't tailgate.
-Don't run stop signs.
-Don't go over the speed limit.
-Use your blinker when you're about to turn.
-Don't run red lights. etc.
Imagine a world where the only rule police had to enforce was "Don't be a jerk". It's obviously far too subjective.
What one officer sees as being a jerk, another might see as perfectly reasonable behavior.
Some of them would be too lax and let people get away with murder, others would be pulling people over for going 1 mile over the speed limit, etc.
I fear this situation in PFO if the only rule the GM's have to enforce is don't be a jerk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just thought of the name "Mundelanion FrostbellY". I have the feeling that the "name police" might start pointing to anything that doesn't fit within their vision of what is proper.It's a minor irritant that the Y in Frostbelly is capitalized, but other than that, I don't see any problem in the name.
And if some minor flunky in the bowels of the Goblinworks secret hideout did a forced change to make it read Mundelanion Frostbelly would it really be a problem?
Maybe there's some obscure cult in Golarian that capitalizes the last letter of their names (and worships straw figures), but I think it's a good example of how some people could make the goofiest names possible within the law of the rules, for no other reason than to be difficult. Having a vague rule that names should be within the setting gives the GW flunky enough reason to change such deliberately obstinate names.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not believe that there will be no rules. My read of some of the posted arguments is that "Don't be a jerk" appears to be implied for most of the sturcture governing usage in PFO. I believe that reserving the right to act when someone abuses the system where the rules have great flexibility is valid and valuable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a great example of where having a rule will result in a lot of gamesmanship, but having a policy may limit it.
The policy is "if we don't like your name, for any reason, we'll make you change it". People who find themselves constantly being forced to change a name will, hopefully, give up eventually and just select a useable name. People who are serial name abusers will get banned or exiled, and they'll stop being a drain on our resources.
If we gave people hard and fast rules, we'll just encourage them to make a name that doesn't violate a rule, but is still offensive or legally problematic, or a headache for players and customer service, then complain bitterly when their "legal name" gets revoked.
By not having a written rule, we're creating an incentive to not try and out-think us. Because you can't. We'll be capricious and arbitrary, not bound by precedent or by clearly defined rules. One day your name will be fine, the next you'll be forced to change it. And we may never explain the reason for our decision.
Totally understand and support what you're getting at here, but I think that wording is unfortunate and inaccurate. You're not going to be capricious or arbitrary, but rather context aware and use judgement. Both capricious and arbitrary are wholly negative, and you're doing something very positive here ("don't be a jerk"), and instantiating a principle is the opposite of capricious, arbitrary behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And if some minor flunky in the bowels of the Goblinworks secret hideout did a forced change to make it read Mundelanion Frostbelly would it really be a problem?
The Question is, would you have a problem with it if that "minor flunky" GM were busy changing my name, rather than /unstuck you from a piece of the environment while a goblin is chewing on your butt?
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Don't be a jerk" is a fantastic rule.Honestly, not really. I'll let it go after this post, because I'm starting to feel like the guy that argues with Ryan the most (even though I like the guy), but let's just say when you're driving in your car, police enforce rules like:
-Don't tailgate.
-Don't run stop signs.
-Don't go over the speed limit.
-Use your blinker when you're about to turn.
-Don't run red lights. etc.Imagine a world where the only rule police had to enforce was "Don't be a jerk". It's obviously far too subjective.
What one officer sees as being a jerk, another might see as perfectly reasonable behavior.
Some of them would be too lax and let people get away with murder, others would be pulling people over for going 1 mile over the speed limit, etc.
I fear this situation in PFO if the only rule the GM's have to enforce is don't be a jerk.
How modern. It is the police that enforce the law, is it? The law is just something for the police to do? And is it all the government's fault? No: laws are guidelines. The police are there because of the Jerks. And we the people are supposed to be the government. We elected those who did nothing in their term or implemented the wrong programs. You and me are responsible for the consequences of our actions.
I believe laws did start out something like 'Don't be a Jerk', but shysters kept gaming it until it now fills law libraries and ruins those it was intended to protect. Thanks to those who must seek every advantage in darkness because they cannot stand openly in the light.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather see good arguments for and against the various options rather than just making it a vote. Seeing that X% of people wanted something doesn't tell us why they did. Having you guys make sure we understand all the ramifications of decisions that we may not have thought of otherwise is crowdforging.
Sorry I'm late to this party. This is a topic near and dear to my heart.
As a lot of cultures in Golarion are a reflection of our own cultures, having the ability to use those names is important. My personal example are characters from the Land of the Linnorm Kings. For all intents and purposes, these guys are Scandinavian and specifically Viking culturally inspired. Naming one "Kathleen Daughter of Grims" isn't going to have the same impact as "Kaðlin Grimsdöttir" even though they mean the same thing.
While this may create issues where people name a character "Legölas" or "Drìzzit" to avoid an automated filter that would prevent them from using the legitimate spelling of the name, I think enough people would report them where they'd be forced to change the name.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... people name a character "Legölas" or "Drìzzit" to avoid an automated filter...
This reminds me of a problem my wife experienced in SWTOR that I hope can be avoided in PFO.
Apparently, Revan is a big deal in SWTOR lore, so they made it impossible to include that in your name. Well, her favorite name is Terevanya. It's not even remotely related to Revan, but because it contains those letters in that order, she was denied. That sucked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... people name a character "Legölas" or "Drìzzit" to avoid an automated filter...This reminds me of a problem my wife experienced in SWTOR that I hope can be avoided in PFO.
Apparently, Revan is a big deal in SWTOR lore, so they made it impossible to include that in your name. Well, her favorite name is Terevanya. It's not even remotely related to Revan, but because it contains those letters in that order, she was denied. That sucked.
I think something like that would be fine and not reported because it doesn't look like a Revan fan boy. It's obviously a different name, and I doubt anyone would have an issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SWTOR also had a strange surname system. After you reached a certain level (20, maybe 30?) you could pick your surname, and all the characters on your account had the same surname. I did pick Steele, or tried to, but it was taken. So was about 20 other variations of it, so I went to oddball characters that still looked like "Steele" but had some questionable ASCII characters in the name. It worked, but was very clunky to look at. I ignored for the most part but that system bugged me.
(Miss Jane: "Well Jethro. What is your surname?"
(Jethro: "That'd be 'Sir Jethro'!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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SWTOR also had a strange surname system. After you reached a certain level (20, maybe 30?) you could pick your surname, and all the characters on your account had the same surname. I did pick Steele, or tried to, but it was taken. So was about 20 other variations of it, so I went to oddball characters that still looked like "Steele" but had some questionable ASCII characters in the name. It worked, but was very clunky to look at. I ignored for the most part but that system bugged me.
If there was only some way to say, "Yeah, those other Steele's and I are related" or not related, that would be great. Surnames shouldn't be restricted. There are tons of different, unrelated families whose surnames are the same but are completely unrelated.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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... people name a character "Legölas" or "Drìzzit" to avoid an automated filter...This reminds me of a problem my wife experienced in SWTOR that I hope can be avoided in PFO.
Apparently, Revan is a big deal in SWTOR lore, so they made it impossible to include that in your name. Well, her favorite name is Terevanya. It's not even remotely related to Revan, but because it contains those letters in that order, she was denied. That sucked.
And meanwhile, "Revam" "Bevan" and "GLuca5 bl0wsChUnKs" got past the automated filter, and probably "Γεναη" as well. That shows the limitations of an automated filter.
I wouldn't have a problem with a uniqueness and accessibility solution that mapped every legal unicode name character onto one or more of the roman letters, and allowed only one name with each mapping. Accented letters and letters in non-roman alphabets would map to the nearest roman letter equivalent; /tell Aeolus would reach ÆoluＳ, and only one character would be permitted to have a name that matched 'Aeolus'.
The display of names could be user-configurable, for people who prefer it that way. I don't have a solution which allows the ideograms of Oriental languages that doesn't result in the Romanized names becoming gibberish, but I don't think that limiting names to a subset of unicode characters that does map easily is a major loss.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...would you have a problem with it if that "minor flunky" GM were busy changing my name, rather than /unstuck you from a piece of the environment...
1) How would you know which they did first?
2) What makes you think they wouldn't have eithera) enough GMs to do more than one thing, or
b) prioritisation for GMs, to order the things needing doing, or
c) GMs capable of prioritising for themselves?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are tons of different, unrelated families whose surnames are the same but are completely unrelated.
We're all cousins, to some degree or another. ;)
As to the naming issue, I tend to put less weight in the older devblogs, but I do think human brains are still going to be the only filters capable of separating good names from crap at this point. A minimally-restrictive automated filter plus GM review of reported names seems the most 'minimal viable product' approach, but as the population grows it will likely become less viable. Maybe the reporting system should count the number of reports on a name so those which seem out of line to more people are handled first. If the reporter has to enter a 'why' for the report, that extra step will be enough to keep some from overusing the system, but if abusing the reports for revenge were a problem, those abusing it could lose their ability to report names for a while.
What about name-squatting? What if someone makes a bunch of characters for no reason but to claim the names? Should the name be considered taken if the character hasn't paid for any training? Should there be a name-recycling system in which a name becomes available again if the character hasn't trained anything for maybe 3-6 months? If the original user comes back and trains something a month late with the name marked 'available', then they automatically claim the name again and restart the timer, but if someone else has claimed it in the meantime they have to come up with something new.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather see good arguments for and against the various options rather than just making it a vote. Seeing that X% of people wanted something doesn't tell us why they did. Having you guys make sure we understand all the ramifications of decisions that we may not have thought of otherwise is crowdforging.
Here I am!
I will miss the brain in the jar. :(
So Goblinization Day came a little early, hmm?
Maybe the brain in the jar was just a pickled snack for later?
Goblins love pickling!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I stopped following this thread a while back.
I ask the devs for two more things:
- [1] No changing mind on a negative decision. If a name is denied it can NEVER be approved for another character. NEVER!
[2]Names for character can not be delineated merely by case. If there is a tOM sAWYER there can not be a Tom Sawyer later or any other mix of those. I am not sure how far current concepts of trademark should extend. Maybe not. But NEVER the excat letters in different case. Mabe evenr any representation of same letters, e.g. Tom Saw Yer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Awesome avatars!
I think the use of an apostrophe or (maybe even and) hyphen is fine as long as it's done in taste. First letter of each is allowed to be capitalized.
Firstname Lastname is my preferred format.
Include a /reportname (insert name here) command.
Have the command simply add the name to a database that gets processed based on GW's current priorities for GMs.
Once the GM's ok a name, that should be the end of it.
If they disallow a name, the player is prompted to change it and then that goes back into the database to be approved.
I think GW is the best judge for what is and isn't in the spirit of Golarion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Include a /reportname (insert name here) command.
I think there needs to be a way to target the character or their chat, or names with unusual characters or gibberish spellings will be hard to report.
"Phûqñ Üâllûpp" is the sort of crap you'd want to report, for multiple reasons, but it would be difficult to remember and type.|
Goblin Squad Member
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I don't expect to see special characters in game. Just the english alphabet and 's and -s.
I can agree with that and I'm Swedish :D
FYI, we use å, ä and ö in our alphabet but the language of this game is English so I just say good riddance to those letters. I think the anglicized versions of "foreign" names look better in english settings than the original versions and it makes sense to use them in that way in this game.
Examples: (S)=Swedish, (E)=anglicized
Åke (S) -> Aake/Aoke (E)
Ingegärd (S) -> Ingierdh (E)
Björn (S) -> Bjorn/Beorn (E)
Edit: AFAIK, those letters are recent inventions (16th century) and thus don't fit in very well in fantasy settings based on earlier times.
Don't know the story behind the accents heavily used in for example French, maybe many people would miss them if they were to be excluded (talking about é, à etc. here)
Edit 2: Apparently, the usage of diacritics in French started during the 18th century, which would make them anachronisms in medieval-style settings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I would like to have the options for ümlats and accents, it will make sending private messages, chatting, and reporting of abusive players more difficult, so they should go in the name of accessibility.
While Björk Guðmundsdóttir is different from Bjork Guomundsdottir, the latter is close enough for a MMO, and both would be banned anyway since Björk is a real person.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I would like to have the options for ümlats and accents, it will make sending private messages, chatting, and reporting of abusive players more difficult, so they should go in the name of accessibility.
While Björk Guðmundsdóttir is different from Bjork Guomundsdottir, the latter is close enough for a MMO, and both would be banned anyway since Björk is a real person.
Instead of not including them, why not have names linkable for PM'ing or chatting?
BTW, the ð symbol is not equivalent to an "o", it's more equivalent to a "th". This may not be important to everyone, but it makes a difference as to how they're pronounced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Instead of not including them, why not have names linkable for PM'ing or chatting?
Because if the person in question isn't visible from your point of view or your lost the name in the sea of general chat messages, linking to it isn't an option, and you then have to fall back on manually typing the name. Likewise, if you are in a conversation with someone with a non standard name and you get pmed by someone else looking to recruit people to help with whatever he is doing, the next /reply you type will go to that guy instead of the person you were talking to. Linkable names are a must, but they are not a replacement for having names that able to be typed without ctrl-codes.
BTW, the ð symbol is not equivalent to an "o", it's more equivalent to a "th". This may not be important to everyone, but it makes a difference as to how they're pronounced.
Thanks, I didn't mean any disrespect to pronunciation, I just used the closest standard letter to the shape of the character. I have very little exposure to any of the norse languages, and I had no idea what sound it was supposed to represent. In cases like that, it would be better to use a phonetic equivalent that is readable and has the same sound when spoken using a standard English alphabet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scrolling up thread, I notice they've got new custom avatars for Dancey and Cheney. Looking good. Off to see if I can find Tork's.
I definitely like the look of the new Goblinworks avatars. Of course, now it means I have to get used to them when scrolling through a thread looking for dev posts...
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Goblin Squad Member
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would be banned anyway since Björk is a real person.
And so are Jennifer and Heather. Björk is a common girl's name in Iceland meaning 'birch', so is it the commonality or the plant reference that we'd ban for? In Golarion, Björk would be an Ulfen name.
Instead of not including them, why not have names linkable for PM'ing or chatting?Because if the person in question isn't visible from your point of view or your lost the name in the sea of general chat messages, linking to it isn't an option, and you then have to fall back on manually typing the name. Likewise, if you are in a conversation with someone with a non standard name and you get pmed by someone else looking to recruit people to help with whatever he is doing, the next /reply you type will go to that guy instead of the person you were talking to. Linkable names are a must, but they are not a replacement for having names that able to be typed without ctrl-codes.
Or have a list of your last 3 or 5 correspondents appear when you hit R, with the most recent selected by default but the others selectable via mouse or arrow keys. For friends you talk to a lot, I'd like to have a friend list, like an instant messenger program. The kid-friendly MMOs from Kingsisle (I played Wizard101 with my niece for a while) make you build names off a list so they're not necessarily unique, but you have a buddy list and those on it have their names tinted a little differently in-game. Despite their source, there's no reason we couldn't borrow the general idea.
BTW, the ð symbol is not equivalent to an "o", it's more equivalent to a "th". This may not be important to everyone, but it makes a difference as to how they're pronounced.Thanks, I didn't mean any disrespect to pronunciation, I just used the closest standard letter to the shape of the character. I have very little exposure to any of the Norse languages, and I had no idea what sound it was supposed to represent. In cases like that, it would be better to use a phonetic equivalent that is readable and has the same sound when spoken using a standard English alphabet.
So put the Thor back in Thursday and check out some Norse names and myths, and the Golarion ethnicity based on them!
Ulfen on Pathfinderwiki.
Lands of the Linnorm Kings map.
Norse names - female - male
Scandinavian names - female - male
Icelandic names - female - male
Norwegian names - female - male
Swedish names - female - male
Danish names - female - male
You could also dig into the Teutonic, Anglo-Saxon, German, Dutch, and Swiss name lists for some related stuff. Name lists which tell you what the names mean are great because you can recombine parts. If Ásbjörn (divine bear) or Arnviðr/Arnvithr (eagle tree) don't work for you, recombine the parts and make Ásarn (divine eagle). :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I definitely like the look of the new Goblinworks avatars. Of course, now it means I have to get used to them when scrolling through a thread looking for dev posts...
You don't have an RSS feed for them? Losing Google Reader sucked, and Feedly screwed up my list during the transfer, but I've rebuilt it.
http://paizo.com/people/LisaStevens&xml=atom
http://paizo.com/people/RyanDancey&xml=atom
http://paizo.com/people/StephenCheney&xml=atom
http://paizo.com/people/TorkShawpk90&xml=atom (what's that PK90 about?)
http://paizo.com/people/LeeHammock&xml=atom
http://paizo.com/people/MarkKalmes&xml=atom
Now if only the flippin' devblog would get an RSS button...
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't have an RSS feed for them?
I have yet to really get into RSS Feeds. The couple of attempts I've made have left me cold. I doubt the RSS Feeds for the dev posts are any better than the links I have to their user posts, though...
It's just that the change will make it a little harder to scroll through a thread page and easily spot them...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just my two cents:
Make it "everything goes", max 16 letters or so.
Rely solely on player feedback for problematic names.
Problem with "report playerxdamnicanttypethatname"? Do not include a typed command for "report". Just make it right click=>context menu=>report.
Reason? You have to SEE an offending name, either in chat or main window. Right click. Report. Done. If a player is too lazy to scroll the chat window up, the name was not offending enough to report...
Be HARSH in PUNISHING offenders.
1st time: rename.
2nd time: rename & 1 day ban.
3rd time: rename & 1 week ban.
4th time: permabanned.
FEAR of the consequences will keep the jerks in line...
I definitely like the look of the new Goblinworks avatars. Of course, now it means I have to get used to them when scrolling through a thread looking for dev posts...You don't have an RSS feed for them? Losing Google Reader sucked, and Feedly screwed up my list during the transfer, but I've rebuilt it.
http://paizo.com/people/LisaStevens&xml=atom
http://paizo.com/people/RyanDancey&xml=atom
http://paizo.com/people/StephenCheney&xml=atom
http://paizo.com/people/TorkShawpk90&xml=atom (what's that PK90 about?)
http://paizo.com/people/LeeHammock&xml=atom
http://paizo.com/people/MarkKalmes&xml=atomNow if only the flippin' devblog would get an RSS button...
Whoa Mark Kalmes is kool. Lisa Stevens didn't change hers, but who doesn't love South Park?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So put the Thor back in Thursday and check out some Norse names and myths, and the Golarion ethnicity based on them!
Just a little something I noted:
Checking out the Ulfen list on Pathfinder wiki, it seems that Paizo has chosen to go without diacritical marks when creating "Nordic" names.|
Goblin Squad Member
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The Ulfen write in runes, so those are just the English (Taldoran, which is the Common trade tongue) approximations. The wiki and PFRPG material also list Taldoran spellings for the various Tian ethnicities (analogous to far-East Asia), but I don't think that implies those cultures use the same common symbols in their own writing.
They could also have the symbol show as the player wished on the character but have the server consider the letter with a special mark to be the same as its basic one. So ö = o and it doesn't matter which you type, the server sees o. They would still probably have to skip and Þ, both of which are a hard-TH, as in that rather than math. It's kinda halfway between a T and D, as implied by the way and look. I don't know what could be done for Cyrillic or Chinese characters though, and Ryan doesn't want to cut off those potentially-large markets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sure not everyone in Pathfinder reads and writes "English", there are other writing systems (I imagine, not familiar with Pathfinder). If it's anything like the real world around medieval times I guess most people are actually illiterate. The point is, Paizo uses english to write names and thus it fits that PFO should as well.
If that were to be the case in PFO, it would be with the understanding that "foreigners" in the River Kingdoms would have their names written in a different way in their own homelands, using their own writing systems.
If I say that the name of the last pharao of Egypt was "Cleopatra", few would object with "No, her name was not "Cleopatra", it was actually [a bunch of squiggly shapes, a sphinx and two birds]"
English without a lot of diacritical marks seems to me to be the standard in Pathfinder-related products, thus it makes sense to me to use in PFO as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh... In my opinion, being "arbitrary and capricious" are common attributes of "being a jerk". When they are adjoined to being a person in the position of judging others, they lend themselves to corruption (showing favoritism, bribery, etc.).
Anyone who thinks of these two traits as being some kind of a virtue, needs to open a dictionary and learn to read. Having judges that are arbitrary and capricious are not a deterrent for bad behavior, they are a deterrent from buying the product.
How many subscriptions did CCP lose over the BOB incident? Tens of thousands, over a hundred thousand?? I'd guess they lost over $1,000,000 in subscriptions and it nearly destroyed the game.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Oh... In my opinion, being "arbitrary and capricious" are common attributes of "being a jerk". When they are adjoined to being a person in the position of judging others, they lend themselves to corruption (showing favoritism, bribery, etc.).
Anyone who thinks of these two traits as being some kind of a virtue, needs to open a dictionary and learn to read. Having judges that are arbitrary and capricious are not a deterrent for bad behavior, they are a deterrent from buying the product.
How many subscriptions did CCP lose over the BOB incident? Tens of thousands, over a hundred thousand?? I'd guess they lost over $1,000,000 in subscriptions and it nearly destroyed the game.
Do you believe "inflexible and unadaptive" are also traits of "being a jerk"?
I've worked in customer service for long enough to know that every time I broke a policy I was being nice, and when I wanted to be a jerk (back) to a customer all I had to do was enforce standard policy without exercising my authority to make exceptions.
The DMV is probably the least arbitrary and capricious example that most people have encountered. In my experience, the DMV goes far beyond 'jerkdom' and well into 'just doing my job'.