Wildshape clarifications -- Seeking lots of input

[Moondragon Starshadow]

Hate to put 2 questions in one thread, but my GM and I had a discussion on my Druid and some clarifications were needed. Please respond, even if you agree with other posters, as we are trying to get a consensus on these issues. Thanks so much.

Issue 1: Improved Natural Attack - Is it a combat feat?

Let's assume that I'm a Druid/Fighter multi-class with at least +4 BAB. Should the Improved Natural Attack feat (listed under "Monster Feats") also be considered a combat feat (thus available as a fighter bonus feat) or just a general feat?

One view is that since it involves increasing damage, it's a combat feat. For comparison, Eldrich Claws ("your natural weapons are considered both magic and silver for purpose of overcoming damage reduction") is specifically listed as a Combat Feat.

The other view is that since it doesn't change an attack and also not specifically listed as a combat feat, it is only a general feat.

Issue 2: Wildshape and # of attacks

Say a medium animal the druid is familiar with can do multiple attacks. However, the Druid at level 4 (when wildshape becomes available) can only do 1 attack. In wildshape, does the Druid gain the extra attacks of the creature it assumes, or does the Druid only get his normal number of attacks, regardless of form?

One view is that he should get the # of attacks of the creature, because that's the form of the creature. The other is that you only take the shape of the creature, but you retain your base number of attacks. Issues like Pounce, Rake, Vision, etc. are already addressed in the Beast Shape spell, but it doesn't address the number of attacks.

Again, thanks for all the replies in advance!

[BigNorseWolf]

1) No. Combat feats are clearly labled. That one is not.

2) he gets the creatures number of attacks. Natural attacks don't interact normally with iterative attacks from a high BAB.

[Samasboy1]

1) Improved Natural Attack is not a Combat feat.

Should it be? That's up to the DM. I don't see an overwhelming reason that is should be, but there is certainly some support for the idea.

2) You get all the Natural Weapons the form you take possesses. This may allow you multiple attacks.

Natural Weapons are different than manufactured weapons.

[Tinalles]

Just to expand on the attacks thing:

Quote:

does the Druid gain the extra attacks of the creature it assumes?

No, he does not get any extra attacks.

Quote:

or does the Druid only get his normal number of attacks, regardless of form?

No, he does not get his normal number of attacks.

What he gets is a number of natural attacks which replace his ordinary attacks.

So, a Druid 4 who wild shapes into a bear gets a bite and 2 claw attacks. The ordinary attack he might have made -- whether with a weapon or whatever else -- simply is not there any more.

And a Druid 8 would ordinarily get two attacks based on his BAB. But if he wild shapes into a boar, he gets just one gore attack. His iterative attack based on BAB is irrelevant, because those attacks are gone.

Basically, natural attacks and iterative attacks use two separate attack systems which function in very different ways. Try not to mix the two systems -- it rapidly gets complex and confusing when you do.

[Gauss]

To clarify Tinalles' comments further. Yes, you can combine Natural Attacks and manufactured weapon attacks. However, animals have no means to do so. But, Elementals might be able to (they are often depicted as having hands) and other wild shape forms will be able to if they have hands.

For example, lets say you are a Mountain Druid and want to Wild Shape into a Troll.

The Troll has 3 natural attacks (Bite, Claw, Claw). All three are primary (they use your full Base Attack Bonus and full strength bonus to damage).

Now you decide you want to use a manufactured weapon in one of your hands. The following happens:
1) You lose the claw attack (the hand holding the manufactured weapon) but keep the Bite and the other claw attack.
2) The bite and other claw attack now have a -5 attack penalty (they become secondary natural attacks)
3) The bite and other claw attack now only do 1/2 your strength bonus to damage (also because they became secondary natural attacks).
4) You lose the ability to Rend (not using two claw attacks)
5) Your manufactured weapon keeps it's normal BAB and strength bonus.
6) Your manufactured weapon keeps its Iterative attacks.

This gives you the following sequence (assumes you are a level 12 druid and level 8 fighter with a total BAB of +17):
Manufactured weapon: BAB/BAB-5/BAB-10/BAB-15 (normal iteratives and normal damage) = +17/+12/+7/+2
Bite: BAB-5 and 1d8+half strength damage = +12
Claw: BAB-5 and 1d6+half strength damage = +12

If you choose to switch to a 2-handed grip you lose the other claw attack.

CRB p182 wrote:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties.

- Gauss

[Tinalles]

Yep. As I said, combining the two systems rapidly gets complex. Personally, I don't think it's worth the trouble. YMMV.

[Gauss]

This is the rules forum and we should not give people what may amount to misleading or incomplete information because the subject matter is complex. People deserve a comprehensive answer or otherwise they may form an incomplete picture of the rules.

Your answers to the question "or does the Druid only get his normal number of attacks, regardless of form?" could be taken as misleading (although that is clearly not your intent based on the last line of that post).

There are a number of combinations with Wild Shape (and Polymorph in general) that allow for both iterative attacks and natural attacks to be combined.

- Gauss

[Atarlost]

Since it can come up with elementals and some plant shapes:

When you make a standard attack action you make one attack, either with one manufactured weapon or one natural weapon.

When you make a full attack you make all natural attacks not on limbs being used for manufactured weapons and you make your attacks with manufactured weapons including iteratives. If you are making any manufactured weapon attacks all natural attacks become secondary (at -5).

For example a vegepygmy has two claws.

A vegepygmy can make two claw attacks at his full attack bonus. He adds his full strength to each and gets 2:1 power attack.

A vegepygmy can wield a quarterstaff in both hands. He gets iteratives and uses 1.5x strength and gets 3:1 power attack. Alternately he can use two weapon fighting and get his strength bonus and 2:1 power attack on his iteratives and half his strength bonus and 1:1 power attack on however many off-hand attacks he has feats for. In either case his hands are occupied with a club and cannot be used for slams.

A vegepygmy can wield a scimitar in one hand. He gets his iteratives with the scimitar, his strength bonus, and 2:1 power attack. He also gets one slam with the hand not holding the scimitar at a -5 penalty. This secondary attack gets half his strength bonus and 1:1 power attack. Since he has one hand free he can use crane style or dervish dance and still get the secondary claw attack with his other hand.

Most, but not all, wildshape forms cannot use manufactured weapons, but elementals can arguably have any form including humanoid, treeants arguably have hands, and vegepygmies unambiguously can use manufactured weapons. A druid wildshaped as a vegepygmy or other manipular form retains a druid's weapon proficiencies.

[prototype00]

If you have access to Improved Unarmed Strike, either via the Monk Class or the appropriate fighter archetype or via the feat, you can totally chain your iterative attacks and your natural attacks together.

The rules state that:

1: Your Iterative attacks are unarmed strikes, and you take them at full strength to damage.

2: Your natural attacks happen after your iterative attacks, they are considered secondary natural attacks (even if they were primary originally) and thus take a -5 to hit (-2 with multiattack) and half strength to damage.

Thus you can have a kung fu allosaurus pounding with his headbutts, elbows and kicks, and his claws and bites.

prototype00

[James Risner]

Moondragon Starshadow wrote:

Issue 1: Improved Natural Attack - Is it a combat feat?

Issue 2: Wildshape and # of attacks
# of attacks of the creature

1) It is only a Combat feat if it has [Combat] as a tag. It doesn't so it isn't.

2) You get all the attacks they have, but you don't get specials. So something like this:
Melee +2 1d4 plus poof
Poof (Ex) The target saves or is Plane Shifted to New Mexico.

You wouldn't get the Poof effect if it wasn't listed on the Beast Shape list.