it says you need 3 times of the lvl of enchantment, and the requirements for the especial ability you want to add.....does this include Craft arms and armor
Interesting question, looks like most melee special properties list Craft Magical Arms and Armor. Looks like by RAW this is defiantly the case. A normal character could craft an Amulet of Mighty Fists at fifth level. Dwarven Cleric archetype Forgemaster could craft one at third due to gaining Craft Magical Arms and Armor as a bonus feat at third.
That is how i read it. If you want the amulet with just a number you just need wonderous item feat, but if you want it with fury or somthing you also need craft arms and armor.
This is a very interesting question. I don't think I ever noticed this. Then again, I typically go for the enhancement bonuses and not the special abilities.
This may be worthy of a FAQ but by RAW, you would have to have Craft Magic Arms and Armor to add special abilties because CMA&A is a requirement.
- Gauss
Body Wrap of Mighty Strike is a very similar item to that posted above. This item states:
"Additionally, the bodywrap can grant melee weapon special abilities to a creature’s unarmed attacks, so long as those special abilities to be added apply to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. Any special abilities are set at the time of creation."
This item does not need Craft Weapons and Armor to make.
I believe that if the item was intended to need Craft Weapons and Armor, it would say so in the 'Construction Requirements'. Amulet of the Mighty Fist does not have this as a requirement, thus the feat is not needed.
Body Wrap of Mighty Strike is a very similar item to that posted above. This item states:
"Additionally, the bodywrap can grant melee weapon special abilities to a creature’s unarmed attacks, so long as those special abilities to be added apply to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. Any special abilities are set at the time of creation."
This item does not need Craft Weapons and Armor to make.
Is the last line in your version of the book or is it an opinion you have? Sorry if i sound rude but imop it says that the item need to the caster level( that you can take +5 to get around) the feat and the spell( that you can take + 5 to get around) and all weapon special abb. follow that formula. This make me belive that you can make the vanilla amulet without carft arms and armor but you need it for te specials. And balancewise carft wonderous is still the second best feat in most games.
I believe that if the item was intended to need Craft Weapons and Armor, it would say so in the 'Construction Requirements'. Amulet of the Mighty Fist does not have this as a requirement, thus the feat is not needed.
I'm with this one, all other items need only ONE crafting feat to make them; the AoMF should not be any different so far as I can see. It is a big enough nerf in it's limitations for the user without heaping more nerf onto the maker.
I believe that if the item was intended to need Craft Weapons and Armor, it would say so in the 'Construction Requirements'. Amulet of the Mighty Fist does not have this as a requirement, thus the feat is not needed.I'm with this one, all other items need only ONE crafting feat to make them; the AoMF should not be any different so far as I can see. It is a big enough nerf in it's limitations for the user without heaping more nerf onto the maker.
This is correct.
Creating Wondrous Items
...
Creating some items may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.
...
Feat(s) Required: Craft Wondrous Item.
So, you only need Craft Wondrous Item and no other required feats. If a particular item requires anything else, it will say so in its description.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5)
No mention of additional feats required.
Ergo, per RAW, no additional feats are required.
Amulet of Might Fists
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5)
DM Blake I think you're forgetting what Flaming, Corrosive, Shock, Holy, Unholy, and most other melee weapon special abilities require.
Craft Magic Arms and Armor flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Cost +1 bonus
I'm going to devil's advocate here. To include melee special weapon quality by RAW you most assuredly need Craft Magic Arms and Armor. I however highly doubt this is RAI. You can still add flat enchantment bonuses without need for Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Dabbler,
There are magic items that require multiple Crafting feats. Quite a few Rods require both Craft Rod and Craft Magic Arms and Armor. A few Staves require both Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Staff.
Now, in the Wondrous Item category you have Bracers of Archery, Lesser Bracers of Archery, Mattock of the Titans, and Maul of the Titans. All of them require Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.
So, you cannot state that magic items only need one crafting feat. Magic Items need as many feats as the requirements dictate.
In the case of the Amulet of Mighty Fists the requirements dictate Craft Wondrous Item and then go on to say you must meet the requirements of melee weapon special abilities. Well, a requirement for those is Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
So, if you want a special ability on an Amulet of Mighty Fists you need both Craft Wondrous Item AND Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
- Gauss
Dabbler,
There are magic items that require multiple Crafting feats. Quite a few Rods require both Craft Rod and Craft Magic Arms and Armor. A few Staves require both Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Staff.
Now, in the Wondrous Item category you have Bracers of Archery, Lesser Bracers of Archery, Mattock of the Titans, and Maul of the Titans. All of them require Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.
So, you cannot state that magic items only need one crafting feat. Magic Items need as many feats as the requirements dictate.
In the case of the Amulet of Mighty Fists the requirements dictate Craft Wondrous Item and then go on to say you must meet the requirements of melee weapon special abilities. Well, a requirement for those is Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
So, if you want a special ability on an Amulet of Mighty Fists you need both Craft Wondrous Item AND Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
- Gauss
Fair enough, I concede the point!
Sorry to necro this, but I think the right precedent is the Amulet of Forge Fist. It indicates to me that Craft Magic Weapons and Armor is not a necessary feat for putting melee abilities on a wondrous item, and by extension the AOMF and Body Wrap of MS. These wondrous items aren't weapons (you don't roll a d20 to hit with them and they don't deal hit point damage on their own.)
***
Amulet, Forge Fist
Aura faint evocation; CL 6th
Slot neck; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
This fist-shaped stone amulet glows with a fiery light. On command, this amulet causes the wearer’s fists to transform into red-hot flaming adamantine. The wearer is protected from the searing heat and can make savage blows with his hands. Unarmed strikes and natural attacks the wearer make with his hands gain the flaming weapon special ability and are treated as adamantine for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction (but not hardness). The wearer’s hands become rigid while using this amulet and cannot be use to hold or manipulate objects (unless that manipulation could be accomplished with a club and is not damaged by fire). The transformation can be ended as a swift action.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item; greater magic fang; and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Cost 6,500 gp.
***
It is a wondrous item from Ultimate Equipment that grants flaming and adamantine to an unarmed strike and natural weapons. It does not require Craft Magic Weapons and Armor.
The Forge Fist Amulet is one of the few examples where, given space limitations, they can explicitly spell out all the requirements because there is no ambiguity regarding which spells are necessary. Why would this item be an exception if adding properties like flaming to a wondrous item required Craft Magic Weapons and Armor?
To me, it is consistent that you can put whatever property you want on a Wondrous Item through the appropriate spell. Note that the Amulet of Forge Fist, AOMF and Body Wrap of MS are not weapons. However, if a wondrous item is actually used to roll a d20 against AC, then I'd concede you need the craft weapon feat to enchant it with a special ability.
Aesatchien, the problem with that is that specific overrides general.
Generally you need Craft Wondrous Item for wondrous items. Specifically there are a few items out there that require Craft Wondrous Item AND Craft Magic Arms and Armor. (Note: I listed several of those items a couple posts ago and two of them do not require attack rolls.)
Then we proceed to the wording on the Amulet of Mighty Fists which states that you must meet the requirements to add special abilities to Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Craft Magic Arms and Armor is a requirement of special weapon abilities.
Summary, because the Amulet of Mighty Fists specifically states that you must meet the requirements and there is not an exception stating you do not need to meet the feat requirement then you need it to add special abilities to the Amulet of Mighty Fists.
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Hmm. I concede the specific overriding the general. However, I don't believe that is enough to reverse my point. On the contrary, I think the rod, staff and wondrous item examples you alluded to prove the general in my favor.
Specifically, your point about other items needing a craft feat plus craft magic weapon without being a weapon isn't correct:
1) Without exception, every rod in UE that requires Craft Magic Weapons and Armor (liberator's, dwarven might, flailing, lordly might, python, viper, thunder & lightning, withering, scepter of heaven) is wieldable and is also a weapon with which you could attack using a d20 (usually a mace or morningstar, but there are other types as well).
2) Ditto every staff in UE that requires craft weapon (aspects, curses, mithral might, power, spiders, heirophant, master, woodlands) are all wieldable as enchanted quarterstaves (or in one case a lance).
3) The wondrous items that need Craft Magic Arms and Armor (horseshoes of crushing blows, talons of leng, the pauldrons, shield cloak, most bracers, gauntlets, mattock, and the maul) are again actually physically hitting the defender or acting as worn armor. The only exception being the bracers of archery, but then again they still enhance your use of a wielded weapon.
So I disagree with your statement that you provided several examples of items requiring a base craft plus craft magic weapons that are not actual weapons/armor themselves. The only possible one is the bracers of archery. The vast majority follow the other pattern, putting both the general case and the specific case (i.e. the amulet of forge fist) in support of the interpretation that you only need craft weapon when the item is a weapon.
Obviously you don't need craft magic weapon to make the AoMF up to +5. To imbue it with the fireball, etc, that is necessary to give it a special melee ability wouldn't tip you over into needing craft magic weapon. The only logic I can see left to your argument is the literal reading of the special melee ability.
I concede you have me on RAW, but I still disagree on RAI.
Amulet of Mighty Fists boosts your attacks just as much (if not more) as Bracers of Archery.
As for the RAI, the RAI of magic items are all over the place. There is often no clear rhyme or reason to why a magic item is set up the way it is so debating the RAI is an exercise in futility.
FYI the FAQ dropped the price of the Amulet of Mighty Fists to 4,000gp for +1 and for the higher enchantment bonuses too. It is reflected in the PRD but may not in your CRB. Still more expensive but not as much.
ooo a drop in price....might be worth getting now
It's really awesome now....for monsters, druids, and animal companions. Still not that hot for monks, but then it never was.
It's really awesome now....for monsters, druids, and animal companions. Still not that hot for monks, but then it never was.Not true. The amulet would allow monks unarmed strikes to gain enhancement bonus's and weapon special qualities like other weapons. Without having to have a spellcaster nearby to buff all the time.
Shoga
Very true I am afraid, because other weapons cost half as much to enhance (save double weapons) and are capped at a +10 total for properties plus enhancements, not +5. The AoMF basically gives the monk half a weapon. Oh, and other weapons can be made of different materials, too.
THAT's the AoMF's problem with delivering enhancement for monks. Ironically, it's not such a problem for the druid's animal companion because the he's guaranteed to have a caster near to buff him as well. Monsters tend not to be stuck with iterative attacks, but have other multiple attacks, and so they get more out of the AoMF than the monk does.
Even if you really do need Craft Magic Arms & Armor I'd think that you might be able to bypass that requirement by taking a +5 on the DC. Agt least to me, Craft Magic A&A doesn't seem like the "requisite item creation feat" to craft an amulet. It might be interesting to see a FAQ on this though if it was ruled that you do need both feats I'd expect that might raise a little Monk angst.
Regarding the relative value of the item, I feel like AoMF is better for special abilities than just enhancement bonuses. Of course the ideal situation is to have both an AoMF with special abilities and access to Greater Magic Fang (or Greater Magic Weapon) to get an enhancement bonus. This shouldn't be very tough to come up with in the average party assuming Ultimate Equipment is in play since you can buy items like page of spell knowledge, pearl or power, and lesser metamagic rod of extend to bribe a caster into casting GMF or GMW on you with a nice, long, duration. This actually works better if you're using flurry of blows since you can enchant just the one natural weapon you're using (maybe a Monk's fist or a Monk/Druid's bite) to get a higher bonus than +1.This is nice at 8th level and just keeps on getting nicer. Being able to use either spell also really helps Monks since the GMW spell is more common and appears on both the Sor/Wiz and Cleric lists.
As an aside, I've found the AoMF can be quite useful for Summoners. Besides amping up your eidolon with a holy amulet and GMF you can have a few spare amulets with +1d6 damage or bane on them and put them on summoned monsters.
Very true I am afraid, because other weapons cost half as much to enhance (save double weapons) and are capped at a +10 total for properties plus enhancements, not +5. The AoMF basically gives the monk half a weapon. Oh, and other weapons can be made of different materials, too.Agreed on the half weapon part. But its partially made up by flurry of blows. More than one attack / round adds value over extra weapon special qualities. I know a fighter type can take TWF to give more value but that's adding a whole other weapon which doubles the costs of enhancements and weapon special qualities.
Not really, as you take a penalty to hit to make up for the extra attacks, and monks often have problems hitting at the best of times. The fighter has the option to split his costs by varying the bonuses, and properties, of two weapons if he TWFs (those weapons get greater static bonuses to damage and greater threat ranges than the unarmed strike as well). He can opt to not TWF to get better odds to hit (especially on single attacks). And lastly those weapons are not capped to +5...in other words, the fighter is better off.
I for one, would get the bodywrap of mighty strikes with +1 enhancement and +6 weapon special qualities. I listed the ones I would do in a previous post on this link. In between the 2 items, more than makes up for any perceived losses.
Shoga
That's the best way of doing it, but the cost is horrendous - 7x the cost of an equivelant weapon, and the properties only apply to half your attacks, just to add insult to injury. The bodywrap of mighty strikes was another gimped item that worked better for non-monks trying to beat monks at unarmed combat (and usually succeeding) than it worked for the monk.
Why would the AoMF only apply to half of the Monk's attacks? I feel like I'm missing something.
Why would the AoMF only apply to half of the Monk's attacks? I feel like I'm missing something.
He is talking about the bodywrap of mighty strikes.
Craft Magic Arms & Armor is certainly the "requisite" feat if you're crafting a sword and can't be bypassed. If you're crafting an amulet which works a bit like a sword I'm not so sure. That's just my feeling on it though. I don't necessarily expect to convince others.
@Cap. Darling - Ok, I understand now! I missed that somehow
Yeah, one wonders whether it would be better to "help out" unarmed combat by letting it slide or "nerf" Craft Wondrous Items by ruthlessly enforcing the apparent RAW. Luckily the only game where this might come up for me has another friendly PC played by my girlfriend who has Craft Magic Arms & Armor. She also has a PC with both feats and an animal companion in another game. Needing both feats seems like kind of a drag in general though, especially since characters who want AoMF often have very little use for magic arms and especially armor.