Anti Paladin reverse fall

[Shore]

Was reading the entry for the anti-paladin in the APG and noted the part about how most paladin transformations into anti-paladins requires a ritual (virgin sacrifices mandatory)and it got me thinking.

With all the stories and scenarios about the holy paladin falling so hard he turns evil, could the opposite occur? Anti-paladin gets taught the meaning of love and friendship or some such and becomes...a paladin! [DUNDUNDUN]

[Chengar Qordath]

No reason that couldn't happen; the bad guy finding redemption and turning good is a pretty iconic story. Of course, there would have to be some kind of ritual cleansing, and a period of atonement and all that.

The big downside of going from evil to good is needing to go on that big apology tour. Especially since it usually takes a lot more than: "Hey, remember when I slaughtered your village and enslaved your children? My bad."

[Jaelithe]

Frankly, though, it's far more likely that a fallen paladin would immediately receive blackguard/anti-paladin powers—the better to confirm them in 'irredeemable' evil—than the reverse. Good isn't interested in tempting you back to its side with the (purportedly) better deal; that's evil's schtick. You do right in great measure because it's right, not because you like the perks.

Pragmatically speaking, of course, most players have no desire to surrender the kind of power possessed by an anti-paladin for the prospect of a lengthy period of parole and probation as a disadvantaged fighter before being again able to wield the powers of light—in particular if you were a privileged paladin, then an even more privileged anti-paladin after your fall.

One raised by evil to do evil—who'd never been genuinely exposed to another way of living—might receive a "Road to Damascus"-type epiphany and be afforded the opportunity to step directly from anti-paladin-hood. Someone who'd been good and fallen into evil, though, would likely have to spend a great deal of time and effort proving to all and sundry, including themselves, that they weren't going to make the same mistake twice. Forth and back in one fell swoop, in this case, just doesn't usually ring true. Instead of being elevated to the heights of visible grace, this time he or she would likely have to climb back—being tempted by evil to take the express train back to an even better deal as an anti-paladin the entire trip.

Both DM and player could have a lot of fun with this.

[Mikaze]

This sounds like something some RotRL GMs may want to keep in mind.

Rise of the Rune Lords:

Provided they're among those that reclassed Nualia as an antipaladin. :)

[KahnyaGnorc]

Combine Ultimate Campaign's retraining rules and Wrath of the Righteous's redemption rules, even with a Paladin of Law type Homebrew class (LN paladin-like class), so the PC is not retraining into a completely different class after turning Neutral but before turning Good.

[master_marshmallow]

I always thought the best story comes from the Antipaladin finding in the ashes of his onslaught an innocent child and decides to spare the child, and from that he begins to question his ways. Originally with the thought of corrupting the child to his side, he starts to empathize with him (possibly from what happened in his past that caused him to turn evil) and decides he cannot let harm come to this child.

You can replace child with love interest if it makes a better story.

[Mikaze]

master_marshmallow wrote:

I always thought the best story comes from the Antipaladin finding in the ashes of his onslaught an innocent child and decides to spare the child, and from that he begins to question his ways. Originally with the thought of corrupting the child to his side, he starts to empathize with him (possibly from what happened in his past that caused him to turn evil) and decides he cannot let harm come to this child.

Lone Wolf and Cub with more shoulder-spikes? ;)

[Ryuko]

I like the idea of an antipaladin rising. However, it wouldn't be like a paladins fall. He wouldn't get to swap all his levels over to paladin. He'd have to deal with those ex-antipaladin levels hanging around. The fall to evil is easy. Just one slip and then you go from great to great in an evil way. The rise to good is tough, hard and brutal. Good doesn't tempt you with power, you do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because you'll get a reward.

[Owly]

Redemption would be the reward for an Anti-Paladin rising, not paladinhood.

Historically, purity was an underlying quality of knighthood, being chaste and unsullied. Innocent, and all that. Able to mete justice without prejudice. A risen anti-paladin would be sullied by his nature.

Still, just because the gods forgive him, doesn't mean the people do. It's difficult to imagine a story that doesn't end with him/her going into self exile in the wilderness, or dying peacefully on the spot. But it's your tale. :)

[Kazaan]

FFIV did it. Cecil, the Dark Knight, gave up his Dark Knight powers to become a Paladin... a lvl 1 Paladin.

[Jaelithe]

Kazaan wrote:

FFIV did it. Cecil, the Dark Knight, gave up his Dark Knight powers to become a Paladin... a lvl 1 Paladin.

In large measure because the other villains never took him seriously with the name "Cecil."

[Quintessentially Me]

May sound odd, but take a look at the movie 'Solomon Kane'. He self-classified as being among the worst humanity had to offer. In the early scenes it seems as though an other worldly entity had come to claim him for Hell. When confronted with the clarity of the depth of his evil and the certainty of his final judgment, and I think to an extent the depth of true evil, he has a change of heart.

He fought, escaped, and spent quite a bit of time in an abbey of some kind, forfeiting all he owned, living on the generosity of the church. This consumes a potentially significant block of time and would represent, along with his giving up all worldly possessions etc a form of atonement. After this the movie really kicks in and he then discovers he must not just stop doing evil but begin doing good.

Whatever else you may think of it it's not a bad narrative describing the equivalent of an anti-paladin's 'ascent', as it were.

The problem is that you would need to make it still fun for the player. Yeah, who likes playing a depowered paladin/anti-paladin? Then there's the question of how the rest of the party looks. Did they all have epiphanies at the same time?

Anyway, I would try to do something where yes there is a one time penance (divestiture of all ill gotten gains), stripping of all anti-paladin abilities (naturally) and an atonement/geas to perform a significant feat to return to the order. That quest (one time adventure) would be performed as a depowered paladin. After that, you get your powers back but get one or more negative levels for a time. Additionally perhaps the equivalent of an Arcane Spell Failure but applied to all divine abilities (spells, channeling, etc), representing the wavering faith and self doubt involved.

Yes, there would still be some nasty moments where everything fails at once, but at least you're still in the game and not entirely shut out.

[Jamie Charlan]

Jaelithe wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

FFIV did it. Cecil, the Dark Knight, gave up his Dark Knight powers to become a Paladin... a lvl 1 Paladin.

In large measure because the other villains never took him seriously with the name "Cecil."

Also because he wasn't so much evil as just powered by it. This is quite different from what we have here with paladins, and would be akin to a race or order that channels negative energy instead [think old planescape where neither positive or negative planes are good or bad] and then quests to flip his source.

[Icyshadow]

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Jaelithe wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

FFIV did it. Cecil, the Dark Knight, gave up his Dark Knight powers to become a Paladin... a lvl 1 Paladin.

In large measure because the other villains never took him seriously with the name "Cecil."

Also because he wasn't so much evil as just powered by it. This is quite different from what we have here with paladins, and would be akin to a race or order that channels negative energy instead [think old planescape where neither positive or negative planes are good or bad] and then quests to flip his source.

Positive and Negative energy are alignment-neutral in Pathfinder as well.

[Jaelithe]

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Jaelithe wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

FFIV did it. Cecil, the Dark Knight, gave up his Dark Knight powers to become a Paladin... a lvl 1 Paladin.

In large measure because the other villains never took him seriously with the name "Cecil."

Also because he wasn't so much evil as just powered by it. This is quite different from what we have here with paladins, and would be akin to a race or order that channels negative energy instead [think old planescape where neither positive or negative planes are good or bad] and then quests to flip his source.

I was just cracking wise, actually: I know nothing about "FFIV." Is that Final Fantasy IV?

(Sorry if I went too far off topic with either of the last two posts.)

[Sissyl]

The problem is that the penance required for this would in all likelihood be massive enough in magnitude that the poor guy wouldn't survive the experience. Of course, death isn't a career ender in PF. You know how Faust went down? Yeah.

[Jamie Charlan]

When dying to atone isn't a dead end because there's such a thing as resurrection/reincarnation, it probably takes a few to count.

[Beopere]

master_marshmallow wrote:

I always thought the best story comes from the Antipaladin finding in the ashes of his onslaught an innocent child and decides to spare the child, and from that he begins to question his ways. Originally with the thought of corrupting the child to his side, he starts to empathize with him (possibly from what happened in his past that caused him to turn evil) and decides he cannot let harm come to this child.

Eventually:

The child is injured/cursed and the AP's soul cries out for mercy and he performs his first lay on hands to save the child.

[Kryzbyn]

Sissyl wrote:

The problem is that the penance required for this would in all likelihood be massive enough in magnitude that the poor guy wouldn't survive the experience. Of course, death isn't a career ender in PF. You know how Faust went down? Yeah.

or Constantine...self sacrifice is a biggie.

[Ciaran Barnes]

The path to ultimate redemption is replete with wagons-full of angst and wineyness. "I am not truly evil, though I seem so to thine eyes. 'Tis the fault of my father for not giving me that which I yearned for, and of ma'ma for making me to eat turnips which I liketh not."

[LazarX]

Shore wrote:

Was reading the entry for the anti-paladin in the APG and noted the part about how most paladin transformations into anti-paladins requires a ritual (virgin sacrifices mandatory)and it got me thinking.

With all the stories and scenarios about the holy paladin falling so hard he turns evil, could the opposite occur? Anti-paladin gets taught the meaning of love and friendship or some such and becomes...a paladin! [DUNDUNDUN]

I don't believe in alignment symmetry. Falling to evil is a thousand times a thousand times easier than rising to good, especially if that evil is of the Anti-Paladin variety. If it happened, it would truly be a unique event, and by definition, you can't make general statements on unique events.

[Jaelithe]

Kryzbyn wrote:

...or Constantine...self sacrifice is a biggie.

Huh? Constantine wasn't at all big on self-sacri–

Wait a minute. You're not talking about Constantine the Great, are you?

If you don't say "John" first, some of us assume you're referring to the slightly more important Constantine.

[Clears cobwebs.]

Got it. Makes perfect sense now.

[Shore]

Hrm, seems like while it would be a fun and unique thing to role play, that kind of character would be more of an NPC. Just seems like to much effort on part of the player.

[Baron Ulfhamr]

I always wanted to do a story arch like this. My goal was to have said anti-paladin fall, be cursed by his former liege as a deathknight/graveknight, then search for a cure for the undead state resulting in mortality. Through the curse, atonement and perhaps paladinhood on the other side. Problem is, the road to recovery from deathknight/graveknight status is less than unclear...

[Jason S]

Shore wrote:

With all the stories and scenarios about the holy paladin falling so hard he turns evil, could the opposite occur? Anti-paladin gets taught the meaning of love and friendship or some such and becomes...a paladin! [DUNDUNDUN]

I suppose, but it would take a long time to do, a lot of effort, and probably a lot of time without any powers at all. But I suppose it would be possible.

How do you change someone's personality so much though? The only way I can see is if their memory was completely wiped out. Puppies and flowers? Women? Yeah right. I don't think so.

[Shore]

Jason S wrote:

I suppose, but it would take a long time to do, a lot of effort, and probably a lot of time without any powers at all. But I suppose it would be possible.

How do you change someone's personality so much though? The only way I can see is if their memory was completely wiped out. Puppies and flowers? Women? Yeah right. I don't think so.

My idea behind it was that there are hundreds of stories about paladins falling because they just weren't right for the position anyway (Miko from the order of the stick is a prime example, far to zealous not enough compassion)and that it would be cool to see the same for an anti-paladin.

[Jason S]

Every GM has a difference stance on stories and personally I don't even think someone could become a paladin unless they were a zealot anyway. It shouldn't be an easy thing to do, should be extremely rare. So it should also be even more extremely rare that they'd change their mind afterwards. Especially in reverse.