Okay so looking over this template. 2 things spring to mind,
Is there any reason not to make this pact with a Contract devil, It has in its own description a relatively easy way to get out of any contracts with him. Get the second copy, destroy both, laugh in the devils face (last step not required, though totally recommended)
Is there any reason not to take this, if your powerful enough to get out of the contract (like summoning another devil to steal the contract from him, or simply summoning and torturing the devil) You can still shift your alignment later. It doesn't mention that you lose the benefits if you break the contract
Its probably also one of the more rewarding ways to spend your soul (and gain any story feats completion bonuses you might have), Compared to 3 wishes, this is way better
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Yes because dealing with millenia old devils with an understanding of legalese so great as to make a modern patent lawyer squeel like a school girl is always easy.
Assume for every plan that he has 12 possible contingency plans. In one of the modules with a contract devil as soon as its signed a subclause places one of the copies in the hands of his master lorthact.
Assume for every plan that he has 12 possible contingency plans. In one of the modules with a contract devil as soon as its signed a subclause places one of the copies in the hands of his master lorthact.
I did say if you are powerful enough, a powerful devil binder can easily check if he has a master of the sorts, divination is another means. Also, they tend to keep them on their person, it says so in the entry.
Creative Director
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First... the devilbound template, like all templates, is not designed nor is it particularly balanced to be a player option, and so the FIRST THING to do if you want this is to get your GM's permission to gain it. And the idea that getting out of an infernal contract is easy is kinda misleading... since again... it's only as easy as your GM makes it. "Get the second copy and destroy both" is a lot harder than it sounds.
Diekssus must really be an infernal fiend in disguise trying to tempt us mortals to everlasting ruin and damnation...
I haven't really read it but for months I've been playing a character that has had a deal with Asmodeus. (Marry his daughter in exchange for coming back to life and getting revenge on my killer.)
How possible/legit would it be to convince my GM to let me get this template instead of leveling? (we are 500xp away from getting to level 9)
I haven't really read it but for months I've been playing a character that has had a deal with Asmodeus. (Marry his daughter in exchange for coming back to life and getting revenge on my killer.)
How possible/legit would it be to convince my GM to let me get this template instead of leveling? (we are 500xp away from getting to level 9)
You'd have to use a "go-between" but your character should already have the necessary "connections" to get rolling. At class level 9 the CR 2 is worth significantly less then 1 level (considering the scoring based on race-builder and monsters as pc's). I also think your selling your soul a bit short
First... the devilbound template, like all templates, is not designed nor is it particularly balanced to be a player option, and so the FIRST THING to do if you want this is to get your GM's permission to gain it. And the idea that getting out of an infernal contract is easy is kinda misleading... since again... it's only as easy as your GM makes it. "Get the second copy and destroy both" is a lot harder than it sounds.
While I agree its a GM's prerogative to make it hard. consider however the question; How powerfull should a hero be to get out of these contracts? level 20 is the max level, surely he could get out of a contract. how about 19, 17 even 15?
And while I would agree that getting your contract would be impossible for level 1 characters, you as the player have a slight advantage in this. You are allowed to kill the devils in league with the involved parties. they may not.
Obviously, that needn't be in your specific contract. However in infernal contracts as in real life, read before you sign. a lot of these clauses are standard issue so a infernal binder should be able to figure it out.
In the end, simply saying getting out of a contract should never be easy and a GM should make it that way seems rather petty and silly. your getting more powerful for a reason
Diekssus must really be an infernal fiend in disguise trying to tempt us mortals to everlasting ruin and damnation...
What's there to tempt you with? control over magic and devils, supernatural strength? and all that for the price of your probably already dammed soul that you might not even have to fork over? that's a steal sir!
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First... the devilbound template, like all templates, is not designed nor is it particularly balanced to be a player option, and so the FIRST THING to do if you want this is to get your GM's permission to gain it. And the idea that getting out of an infernal contract is easy is kinda misleading... since again... it's only as easy as your GM makes it. "Get the second copy and destroy both" is a lot harder than it sounds.While I agree its a GM's prerogative to make it hard. consider however the question; How powerfull should a hero be to get out of these contracts? level 20 is the max level, surely he could get out of a contract. how about 19, 17 even 15?
And while I would agree that getting your contract would be impossible for level 1 characters, you as the player have a slight advantage in this. You are allowed to kill the devils in league with the involved parties. they may not.
Obviously, that needn't be in your specific contract. However in infernal contracts as in real life, read before you sign. a lot of these clauses are standard issue so a infernal binder should be able to figure it out.
In the end, simply saying getting out of a contract should never be easy and a GM should make it that way seems rather petty and silly. your getting more powerful for a reason.
Counterpoint: The heart of the devil mindset is to get mortals to make pacts with them. The devils want you to be damned to Hell, after all. So wouldn't a devil WANT you to think that you could easily escape the contract that damns you? Give you a little bit of hope, make the deal seem all the more tantalizing?
Let's say you're that Level 1 wizard who makes a pact with a contract devil for the devilbound template. You go conquer some villages, build a kingdom, and lo and behold you're Level 20. Maybe you've even got a few Mythic tiers in your court. So you go and use planar ally to call out your contract devil and you kill him, destroying his copy of your contract. Awesome. You even use locate object to find the last one.
Its in Stygia. An entire layer of Hell dedicated to cataloging the sins of mortals and the temptations that damned them. The plane itself is so unfathomably large that some might call it infinite. And somewhere in that plane is your contract, hidden behind the legions of devils who dwell there. And if that wasn't a good enough reason as to how undoing the template could (and rightfully should) be difficult, its very likely that the devils have been watching you grow in strength. Of course they'd keep tabs on their business partners. And if devils know one thing, its mortals. They know that with strength comes boldness, so where is that contract most likely going to be? In the personal clutches of Greyon himself. Because he wants nothing more than for you to die trying to get to him so that you're soul can become transformed into a new lemure servant; Hell's endless archives of sin and heresy need plenty of dusting, after all.
Counterpoint: The heart of the devil mindset is to get mortals to make pacts with them. The devils want you to be damned to Hell, after all. So wouldn't a devil WANT you to think that you could easily escape the contract that damns you? Give you a little bit of hope, make the deal seem all the more tantalizing?Let's say you're that Level 1 wizard who makes a pact with a contract devil for the devilbound template. You go conquer some villages, build a kingdom, and lo and behold you're Level 20. Maybe you've even got a few Mythic tiers in your court. So you go and use planar ally to call out your contract devil and you kill him, destroying his copy of your...
Well, first of all, if you destroy HIS copy of the contract, your done, its only 2 of them, yours and his. you got his? you've won. no trip to hell needed.
However, I'll assume that's an error on your part, the rest of your point though; and here's how to win this : truenames, know the truename of a devil, you can barter with that, not even the one you signed with, just some loser imps. HAVE THEM get the contract for you, no need to risk your own bloody life, you traded your soul to command legions, use them.
Also, like I said, you can check beforehand if a devil has a master who would receive your soul in the case of the devil's demise. you could also just not kill him, you only need his copy of the contract. and since the contract only works for 1 devil, why would other devils not be willing to rent out their services?, they'd hate to see a rival get more powerful by gaining your soul. infernal politics is a double edged sword like that.
In the end all of your points can easily be avoided, EVEN more so if your level 20, at that point most of um become void.
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Creative Director
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While I agree its a GM's prerogative to make it hard. consider however the question; How powerfull should a hero be to get out of these contracts? level 20 is the max level, surely he could get out of a contract. how about 19, 17 even 15?
Depends on the story the GM wants to tell.
I can think of cool implications on either side—what happens if a 1st level character escapes a diabolic contract and what happens if a 20th level one both suggest very different but equally interesting plots.
While I agree its a GM's prerogative to make it hard. consider however the question; How powerfull should a hero be to get out of these contracts? level 20 is the max level, surely he could get out of a contract. how about 19, 17 even 15?
Depends on the story the GM wants to tell.
I can think of cool implications on either side—what happens if a 1st level character escapes a diabolic contract and what happens if a 20th level one both suggest very different but equally interesting plots.
true enough, however the difference is, a level 20 CAN negotiate from a position of power. I mean, if a devil is willing to offer this template to a level 5 char, those extra 15 levels worth of diablerie should mean its easier to get out of it. if a GM doesn't want to recognize that, I'd call that, to reiterate myself petty and silly
In the end all of your points can easily be avoided, EVEN more so if your level 20, at that point most of um become void.
I apologize, but I must have missed the part where you explain why an Archdevil would hand over what is essentially a voucher for the soul of a powerful mortal to an imp. Did the imp ask VERY nicely?
I apologize, but I must have missed the part where you explain why an Archdevil would hand over what is essentially a voucher for the soul of a powerful mortal to an imp. Did the imp ask VERY nicely?
I wasn't suggesting they'd hand it over, just that they got their hands on it, being small means your noticed a lot less easily. Also, who would sign with an archdevil? are you an idiot? you can get these bonuses from an imp. That's like saying to loan money from the mafia with a 200% interest rate with complementary aquatic sleeping accommodations, in stead of going to the bank.
I would assume any decent contract devil would put a contingency on his half of the contract to, at the very least, prevent the original signer from ever being able to get their hands on it.
yes that's what everyone keeps saying. I can only laugh then when its mentioned in the contract devils entry that they keep them on their person.
You should keep in mind, that given the fact the devil's don't like one another, storing the contract somewhere they cannot protect it, is dangerous in and of itself.
Just because they keep it on their person doesn't mean they cant still set up contingency spells, or even have subclauses written into the contract that say stuff like acquiring both copies of the contract results in immediate forfeiture of the soul.
which is why any sane diabolist destroys his own copy first, perhaps after making an incomplete copy. also that would again fall under, read your contracts before you sign them, good advise in general btw.
Okay so looking over this template. 2 things spring to mind,
Is there any reason not to make this pact with a Contract devil, It has in its own description a relatively easy way to get out of any contracts with him. Get the second copy, destroy both, laugh in the devils face (last step not required, though totally recommended)
Is there any reason not to take this, if your powerful enough to get out of the contract (like summoning another devil to steal the contract from him, or simply summoning and torturing the devil) You can still shift your alignment later. It doesn't mention that you lose the benefits if you break the contract
Its probably also one of the more rewarding ways to spend your soul (and gain any story feats completion bonuses you might have), Compared to 3 wishes, this is way better
No reason at all you shouldn't -- it's absolutely a great idea. Go right ahead. I recommend it as a matter of fact.
Trust me.
Okay so looking over this template. 2 things spring to mind,
Is there any reason not to make this pact with a Contract devil, It has in its own description a relatively easy way to get out of any contracts with him. Get the second copy, destroy both, laugh in the devils face (last step not required, though totally recommended)
Is there any reason not to take this, if your powerful enough to get out of the contract (like summoning another devil to steal the contract from him, or simply summoning and torturing the devil) You can still shift your alignment later. It doesn't mention that you lose the benefits if you break the contract
Its probably also one of the more rewarding ways to spend your soul (and gain any story feats completion bonuses you might have), Compared to 3 wishes, this is way better
No reason at all you shouldn't -- it's absolutely a great idea. Go right ahead. I recommend it as a matter of fact.
Trust me.
been there done that, got out of it :) I rule, I's smarter then you!
been there done that, got out of it :) I rule, I's smarter then you!Okay so looking over this template. 2 things spring to mind,
Is there any reason not to make this pact with a Contract devil, It has in its own description a relatively easy way to get out of any contracts with him. Get the second copy, destroy both, laugh in the devils face (last step not required, though totally recommended)
Is there any reason not to take this, if your powerful enough to get out of the contract (like summoning another devil to steal the contract from him, or simply summoning and torturing the devil) You can still shift your alignment later. It doesn't mention that you lose the benefits if you break the contract
Its probably also one of the more rewarding ways to spend your soul (and gain any story feats completion bonuses you might have), Compared to 3 wishes, this is way better
No reason at all you shouldn't -- it's absolutely a great idea. Go right ahead. I recommend it as a matter of fact.
Trust me.
Of course you are! That's why I support your decision! You are much too smart to fail for some old devil's tricks...
It's specifically stated that "Should both copies of a contract be destroyed, any effects caused by the contract are canceled or reversed..."
So using a planar binding or gate spell to summon your contractor, murder him, and destroy his copy of your contract will result in losing whatever you got from the contract. Depending on what you actually got, the repercussions could be staggering.
It would appear that your copy and the contract devil's copy are the supernaturally binding contracts; additional copies could be made but they're just records. I would expect Hell to keep copies of all active contracts, so that they can be reviewed if something goes wrong.
I'd also expect that killing a contract devil will also piss off his superior.
While the chain doesn't necessarily go up to an archduke, it probably does go up a pit fiend who does not approve of you worthless mortals summoning and ganking his servants.
It's specifically stated that "Should both copies of a contract be destroyed, any effects caused by the contract are canceled or reversed..."
So using a planar binding or gate spell to summon your contractor, murder him, and destroy his copy of your contract will result in losing whatever you got from the contract. Depending on what you actually got, the repercussions could be staggering.
It would appear that your copy and the contract devil's copy are the supernaturally binding contracts; additional copies could be made but they're just records. I would expect Hell to keep copies of all active contracts, so that they can be reviewed if something goes wrong.
I'd also expect that killing a contract devil will also piss off his superior.
While the chain doesn't necessarily go up to an archduke, it probably does go up a pit fiend who does not approve of you worthless mortals summoning and ganking his servants.
It's always funny how people assume that the copy we have on us are our specific original copy. I mean think about this -- we use the darn things for whips.
It's also equally funny that people don't think we do not have our own contingencies in place -- like a angelic court case against the murderer of a member of a contractual agreement.
I mean do you think Old Scratch helped with the whole devourer think out of the goodness of his heart? Really?
I've been checking out the possibility of introducing a Devilbound NPC and I've got a gripe with it myself. See, the template can be applied to any evil creature, but to me, that doesn't necessarily make sense. Wouldn't the most desperate try and get contracts of fame, power, or fortune regardless of alignment? Just my two cents.
It's always funny how people assume that the copy we have on us are our specific original copy. I mean think about this -- we use the darn things for whips.It's also equally funny that people don't think we do not have our own contingencies in place -- like a angelic court case against the murderer of a member of a contractual agreement.
I mean do you think Old Scratch helped with the whole devourer think out of the goodness of his heart? Really?
frankly, any other copy of an infernal contract doesn't work. it also leads to the argument that he wouldn't leave that lying around a place where any more powerful devil could raid his "contract depository".
And while I agree that any LG afterlife will be blocked to you for breaking an infernal contract, I'd imagine you'd be welcomed as a hero in any CN afterlife.
the idea of contingencies once again is limited by the devil itself, eclipse the devil in power, and you eclipse the contingencies.
I've been checking out the possibility of introducing a Devilbound NPC and I've got a gripe with it myself. See, the template can be applied to any evil creature, but to me, that doesn't necessarily make sense. Wouldn't the most desperate try and get contracts of fame, power, or fortune regardless of alignment? Just my two cents.
The description doesn't say that it can only be applied to evil creatures. However, signing your soul away to a devil is in itself rather evil, so any creature that has the template is at the point of acquisition evil. after that they are likely to stay of the evil alignment however,, exceptions exist.
After getting out of the deal, that change is reversed, so if you've been a good boy, your alignment even changes back!
Its a sweet gig
It's always funny how people assume that the copy we have on us are our specific original copy. I mean think about this -- we use the darn things for whips.It's also equally funny that people don't think we do not have our own contingencies in place -- like a angelic court case against the murderer of a member of a contractual agreement.
I mean do you think Old Scratch helped with the whole devourer think out of the goodness of his heart? Really?
frankly, any other copy of an infernal contract doesn't work. it also leads to the argument that he wouldn't leave that lying around a place where any more powerful devil could raid his "contract depository".
And while I agree that any LG afterlife will be blocked to you for breaking an infernal contract, I'd imagine you'd be welcomed as a hero in any CN afterlife.
the idea of contingencies once again is limited by the devil itself, eclipse the devil in power, and you eclipse the contingencies.
actually i turn in my contracts because we are suppose to, those are the rules. see mortal we work for something bigger than ourselves, so there is no worry of a more powerful devil raiding our contracts... we are not demons you know and that sort of pitiful infighting is something best left to lesser beings.
however even those that... escape if you want to call it that serve as each one serves as an inspiration to thousands of others to try their luck... it is great proproganda, for us.
i keep a copy of my originals yes because it is good to have a paper trail, but the originals are stored safely because mortals are duplicous and untrustworthy. we forgive this but honestly mortals inflict more pain and damage on themselves trying to be tricky that is really worth it.
actually i turn in my contracts because we are suppose to, those are the rules. see mortal we work for something bigger than ourselves, so there is no worry of a more powerful devil raiding our contracts... we are not demons you know and that sort of pitiful infighting is something best left to lesser beings.
however even those that... escape if you want to call it that serve as each one serves as an inspiration to thousands of others to try their luck... it is great proproganda, for us.
i keep a copy of my originals yes because it is good to have a paper trail, but the originals are stored safely because mortals are duplicous and untrustworthy. we forgive this but honestly mortals inflict more pain and damage on themselves trying to be tricky that is really worth it.
So your reply is based on ignoring everything that has been said so far, fantastic, those are the easiest devils to dupe, ignorance and arrogance, your downfall. Also blatantly disregarding the lore is rather... petty
Absolutely sir,
Just sign here, here and here.
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Absolutely sir,
Just sign here, here and here.
Singed for 3 wishes, sends his bound Infernal duke to destroy the contract, binds infernal contract broker to a Sanguine Talisman for his impudence and has the infernal duke eat the talisman. problem solved
Singed for 3 wishes, sends his bound Infernal duke to destroy the contract, binds infernal contract broker to a Sanguine Talisman for his impudence and has the infernal duke eat the talisman. problem solvedAbsolutely sir,
Just sign here, here and here.
Really? You are going with one that simple? Here's some pro bono for you -- won't work, destroying the contract cancels and counters effects gained from it, and even if bound into a talisman that doesn't actually constrain or hold me. It's a bit like threatening someone by attacking their clothing.
You would do much better off finding the person who has me contracted to their service as with my name they can repeatedly bring me back.
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Singed for 3 wishes, sends his bound Infernal duke to destroy the contract, binds infernal contract broker to a Sanguine Talisman for his impudence and has the infernal duke eat the talisman. problem solvedAbsolutely sir,
Just sign here, here and here.
Really? You are going with one that simple? Here's some pro bono for you -- won't work, destroying the contract cancels and counters effects gained from it, and even if bound into a talisman that doesn't actually constrain or hold me. It's a bit like threatening someone by attacking their clothing.
You would do much better off finding the person who has me contracted to their service as with my name they can repeatedly bring me back.
1 - A sanguine talisman will hold you, read the book
2 - I don't need the benefits of a contract to bind a devil, nor bind you somewhere3 - I already have your truename, you signed the contract with it, finding you, imprisoning you, binding you, are all so much easier now.
you lost devil, simply deneying the rules doesn't absolve you from them. It's also incredibly unsightly for a devil to admit to such a disregard for rules.