I am looking at the following build for a Paladin of Sarenrae and looking for advice on the build. We are starting the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path soon with limited healing (no cleric, but I think we will have a Bard and either a Witch or an Oracle)
I figured I needed to be self sustaining in combat so I maximized my Lay on Hands by going with one of the Tiefling options with a CHR boost (have not decided yet). + 1 lay on hands to self, with the Fey Foundling feat at first level (+2 hp per die on any magical healing). I plan on taking Greater Mercy at 3rd to really pile on the healing.
I figured I would go Sword and Board as I was planning on taking the Guardian Tier path and Sacrificial Shield to start with, and Fast healing after that. Really becoming a meat shield for the party.
I am taking the Exposed to Awfulness trait but am undecided on the second trait, any advice there would be awesome.
I was also thinking of dropping the spell like ability for the Maw and Claw ability, but that seems kinda counter productive to the Sacrificial Shield ability.
Any other traits or feats I should look at maximize the lay on hands?
Pitborn Tieflings are what you probably wanna look at. +2 STR, +2 CHA, -2 INT. If you really wanna focus on your Lay on Hands, you should pick up some Bracers of the Merciful Knight. They raise your effective paladin level by 4 for the purpose of calculating your Lay on Hands.
As for traits, I love Extremely Fashionable, since it gives me a +1 on Intimidate and Diplomacy, plus lets me pick up Intimidate as a class skill which is actually really good.
As far as sword and board goes, the consensus on these forums is basically: "go with a one handed weapon two handed for when you need damage, and then draw the shield when you need it."
For all that healing you have, soaking up damage should mitigate having a low AC, because enemies may get intelligent and decide it's smarter to reduce the enemy's numbers by picking off the ones that are easier to hit first, which in this case wouldn't be you.
+1 on everything here, especially the LoH optimization.
I like the build idea. I build a paladin for PFS. I went with the demonspawn (pitborn) tiefling, took Fey Foundling at 1st level, Greater Mercy at 3rd. I actually decided to skip the shield and went with a nodachi as my weapon. I picked up a vibrant cracked purple prism ioun stone and a wand of shield[/i[. Now I just have the arcane caster use the wand to cast [i]shield into the ioun stone, then I can use it to cast shield on myself. At level 5 I'm already up to 25 AC without a shield and without even having magical armor.
I was looking at picking up the Intimidate skill, but decided against it, as we have at least one other CHR based class, and possibly two. The Bard will be really strong at Intimidate, I was thinking of staying focused on Diplomacy / Sense Motive to role play the whole redemption thing.
As such I was thinking the Beastbrood to get the bonus to Sense Motive. I also like the Detect Thoughts for the Roleplay possibilities, however it's a mute point if I take the Natural Claws attacks (and have to drop the spell like ability to get it)
I am not sure for this build I really want to get a terrific AC though. The whole point is to have the bad guys hit him and be the meat shield. I will want it high enough to make 2nd / 3rd attack miss most of the time, but over all the whole point is to get hit and absorb the damage.
I love the Bracers Idea, Thanks MM.
How much was the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone?
if you're going to take claw or maw, think about a reach weapon... your bite (which is the one you want to pick) will threaten adjacent squares while you're bardiche or fauchard threatens at 10'; that way you can further improve your action economy by adding bunch of AoOs to up your damage (and the more damage you do the less able to ignore you for squishier targets the enemies will be)
MatthewN wrote: How much was the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone? 2000 I believe.
master_marshmallow wrote: MatthewN wrote: How much was the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone? 2000 I believe. Correct.
My paladin also took Dangerously Curious, so in the event I don't party with an arcane caster, I can try and cast the shield spell myself. The great thing is, I can do it hours in advance because the spell cast into the ioun stone never goes away.
Oh, and if you go with a tiefling, consider the Suicidal tiefling trait.
The two handed weapons will get away from the whole sword & board and really negate the Sacrificial Shield mythic path ability.
I don't think I really need to deal massive damage as long as I am healing every round (50-60% of my total health healed as a swift action). Plus our Bard will be a Disarm/ Trip Specialist with the whip. I can take all day beating on BBG if he is prone and weaponless.
I like the Suicidal Tiefling trait a lot.
I don't think I will have enough skill points to take more than the Sense Motive and Diplomacy, plus the Bard has the UMD skill and I really hate taking away from other PC's moment to shine, if you know what I mean.
I don't see many monsters bypassing the Paladin to attack others in the group. If there are a number of them, and the swam us, yea, but when there is just one or two. I should be able to do enough damage to keep it focused on me long enough for the bard to trip / disarm / Dirty trick or Demoralize them.
So far in the group we will have the Paladin, a Bard, either a Witch or an Oracle.
One guy is thinking a Barbarian, but we wont know for sure into the week we start the campaign and if we have a 5th, again we won't now for sure what he is until he sits at the table.
I doubt either of the two unknowns will play a cleric. (Perhaps a druid, but it will be a combat orientated druid with little or no healing spells)
Along the redemption lines, I was liking the detect thoughts ability from the Rakshasa-Spawn. If we capture someone the Paladin will put him on trial for his crimes. If the rest of the party believes he can be redeemed, the Paladin will put him under his wing and try to save the lost soul. If the party doesn't believe he can be redeemed, he will be executed. Detect thoughts will really help that process.
Already spoke with the GM and have at least a general consensus that the process is in agreement with Sarenrae Paladin tenets.
Flame of the dawnflower is a very thematic trait, although it won't always be useful against demons.
Make sure that someone in the party has Mending to fix your shield between fights.
Oath of Vengeance paladin will let you trade LoH for smites if needed.
Blade of mercy is another useful Sarenrae trait. It lets you deal non lethal damage with a slashing weapon at no penalty
Another possibility is to use a big heavy shield two handed Captain America-style. This way you can have a 2d6 weapon with 3/1 PA and x1.5 Str bonuses without sacrificing your shield and AC.
With spells like Litany of Righteousness in your disposal, you really want to be able to deal massive amounts of damage when it is necessary.
remember that oath of vengeance and oath against fiends can stack (theres rules for multiple oaths and how their oath spells work), for even more LoH/smite flexibility.
Hmmm A shield Bashing Paladin, that draws the Scimitar when the fight looks tough.. Would still want to make sure I can Lay on Hands if I use both, but I like it. Gives me a two handed weapon, and a sword and Board approach at the same time. Nice XMorsX! I Like it.
A bashing spiked heavy shield deals 2d6 damage. You will never need the scimitar. You will deal more damage with two-handed shield attacks. For sword and board you need Shieldmaster in order to be effective, which is too feat intensive for a Paladin to be worth it.
Now if you want the Scimitar just to show of, you can certainly do it.
XMorsX wrote: A bashing spiked heavy shield deals 2d6 damage. You will never need the scimitar. You will deal more damage with two-handed shield attacks. For sword and board you need Shieldmaster in order to be effective, which is too feat intensive for a Paladin to be worth it.
Now if you want the Scimitar just to show of, you can certainly do it.
This is incorrect, a bashing heavy shield deals 1 d8 damage, the spike is considered a different weapon all together, and it does 1 d6.
There is not a way to get 2d6 out of an appropriately sized shield.
Can a shield deal Non-Lethal Damage only? Use the Sword for normal attacks, and the shield to subdue.
Is it a typo that Litany of Righteousness casting time is a swift action?
If not that is one of the most powerful spells in the game.
master_marshmallow wrote: XMorsX wrote: A bashing spiked heavy shield deals 2d6 damage. You will never need the scimitar. You will deal more damage with two-handed shield attacks. For sword and board you need Shieldmaster in order to be effective, which is too feat intensive for a Paladin to be worth it.
Now if you want the Scimitar just to show of, you can certainly do it.
This is incorrect, a bashing heavy shield deals 1 d8 damage, the spike is considered a different weapon all together, and it does 1 d6.
There is not a way to get 2d6 out of an appropriately sized shield. Actually there is not a clear definition about how exactly they are working. I has been suggested to make it work like you say, but you can definately ignore this suggestion. Bashing enchantment is magic anyway, who needs a logical explaination. In 3.5 edition the combination was used fine anyway.
Whatever the ruling you may follow though (I find it a bit lame to pay for shield spikes only to find out that you cannot enchant your shield the way you could an ordinary shield), still the way to go is a heavy shield wielded with two hands.
XMorsX wrote: master_marshmallow wrote: XMorsX wrote: A bashing spiked heavy shield deals 2d6 damage. You will never need the scimitar. You will deal more damage with two-handed shield attacks. For sword and board you need Shieldmaster in order to be effective, which is too feat intensive for a Paladin to be worth it.
Now if you want the Scimitar just to show of, you can certainly do it.
This is incorrect, a bashing heavy shield deals 1 d8 damage, the spike is considered a different weapon all together, and it does 1 d6.
There is not a way to get 2d6 out of an appropriately sized shield. Actually there is not a clear definition about how exactly they are working. I has been suggested to make it work like you say, but you can definately ignore this suggestion. Bashing enchantment is magic anyway, who needs a logical explaination. In 3.5 edition the combination was used fine anyway.
Whatever the ruling you may follow though (I find it a bit lame to pay for shield spikes only to find out that you cannot enchant your shield the way you could an ordinary shield), still the way to go is a heavy shield wielded with two hands. Two things:
One: If they stacked (which the link you has JJ clearly stating that the shield spike and the shield bash are two different weapons) the damage would be 1d10, not 2d6.
Two: What kind of damage would this do? You shield bash is what the bashing enchantment improves, making it 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and the shield spike is 1d6 piercing. It is clear that they are two separate weapons.
Did you even read your own link?
Wow, I did not realize Paladins had so many swift action or faster spells to cast.
AWESOME...
master_marshmallow wrote: XMorsX wrote: master_marshmallow wrote: XMorsX wrote: A bashing spiked heavy shield deals 2d6 damage. You will never need the scimitar. You will deal more damage with two-handed shield attacks. For sword and board you need Shieldmaster in order to be effective, which is too feat intensive for a Paladin to be worth it.
Now if you want the Scimitar just to show of, you can certainly do it.
This is incorrect, a bashing heavy shield deals 1 d8 damage, the spike is considered a different weapon all together, and it does 1 d6.
There is not a way to get 2d6 out of an appropriately sized shield. Actually there is not a clear definition about how exactly they are working. I has been suggested to make it work like you say, but you can definately ignore this suggestion. Bashing enchantment is magic anyway, who needs a logical explaination. In 3.5 edition the combination was used fine anyway.
Whatever the ruling you may follow though (I find it a bit lame to pay for shield spikes only to find out that you cannot enchant your shield the way you could an ordinary shield), still the way to go is a heavy shield wielded with two hands. Two things:
One: If they stacked (which the link you has JJ clearly stating that the shield spike and the shield bash are two different weapons) the damage would be 1d10, not 2d6.
Two: What kind of damage would this do? You shield bash is what the bashing enchantment improves, making it 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and the shield spike is 1d6 piercing. It is clear that they are two separate weapons.
Did you even read your own link? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-19/scarred-wanderer
This NPC has a spiked heavy bashing shield and does 2d6 base
master_marshmallow wrote: XMorsX wrote: master_marshmallow wrote: XMorsX wrote: A bashing spiked heavy shield deals 2d6 damage. You will never need the scimitar. You will deal more damage with two-handed shield attacks. For sword and board you need Shieldmaster in order to be effective, which is too feat intensive for a Paladin to be worth it.
Now if you want the Scimitar just to show of, you can certainly do it.
This is incorrect, a bashing heavy shield deals 1 d8 damage, the spike is considered a different weapon all together, and it does 1 d6.
There is not a way to get 2d6 out of an appropriately sized shield. Actually there is not a clear definition about how exactly they are working. I has been suggested to make it work like you say, but you can definately ignore this suggestion. Bashing enchantment is magic anyway, who needs a logical explaination. In 3.5 edition the combination was used fine anyway.
Whatever the ruling you may follow though (I find it a bit lame to pay for shield spikes only to find out that you cannot enchant your shield the way you could an ordinary shield), still the way to go is a heavy shield wielded with two hands. Two things:
One: If they stacked (which the link you has JJ clearly stating that the shield spike and the shield bash are two different weapons) the damage would be 1d10, not 2d6.
Two: What kind of damage would this do? You shield bash is what the bashing enchantment improves, making it 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and the shield spike is 1d6 piercing. It is clear that they are two separate weapons.
Did you even read your own link? You become aggresive like you know the only thruth. What it is stated is the opinion of a designer, which certainly is important but it is not the end of the argument.
If we assume that they stack and apply the bashing enchantment on a spike heavy shield, you have a weapon that deals 1d10 damage. BUT, if you apply the bashing enchantment first, you raise the base damage at 1d8. Put spikes on and you have the damage of one size category larger weapon, which is 2d6.
Read the description of weapon spikes. Nowhere it is stated that they are a seperate attack, in fact it clearly states that it upgrades your shield bash. The seperate attack thing is just a way of JJ to shut down a combination that seems to him overpowered. And what separate attack means anyway? That instad of bashing them, you scratch them with your spikes?
XMorsX wrote: You become aggresive like you know the only thruth. What it is stated is the opinion of a designer, which certainly is important but it is not the end of the argument. Don't give advice based on mechanics that aren't real. The truth is that the spikes and the shield are themselves separate weapons, otherwise they wouldn't have separate entries in the weapon chart, and adding spikes would just add a size category.
Quote: If we assume that they stack Stop right there, you already lose, never assume things stack. Quote: and apply the bashing enchantment on a spike heavy shield, you have a weapon that deals 1d10 damage. BUT, if you apply the bashing enchantment first, you raise the base damage at 1d8. Put spikes on and you have the damage of one size category larger weapon, which is 2d6. If it was a Large weapon sure, but it is a medium weapon, and one step up is 1d10. Chart is on this link.
Quote: Read the description of weapon spikes. Nowhere it is stated that they are a seperate attack, in fact it clearly states that it upgrades your shield bash. The seperate attack thing is just a way of JJ to shut down a combination that seems to him overpowered. And what separate attack means anyway? That instad of bashing them, you scratch them with your spikes? Shield Spikes wrote: Benefit: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see "spiked shields" on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Emphasis mine. Yes it does say that it is a separate weapon.
Looks like a large shield does 1d4, and a spiked large shield does 1d6.
http://paizo.com/prd/equipment.html
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