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Hi, I recently had an issue come up where my PC was overrunning a blinded troll and I rolled a low number vs it's CMD. Now, blinded says, "It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks."
So I argued that that means the troll, with a DEX of 14 (+2 bonus), has a -4 penalty to it's CMD, and another player thought that only the "-2 penalty to AC" applied. Luckily the GM agreed with me, as it meant the difference to succeeding with the overrun or not.
Combat says, "Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD." So, it doesn't explicitly say that a "loss of Dex bonus to AC" applies to CMD. I know there is a difference between being "Denied Dex penalty" and "flat-footed". But, both are a penalty to AC and should apply to CMD.
Was I wrong?
As the DM, I would have ruled along with you. I understand the confusion that could result from trying to determine a ruling from the RAW, but the intent of the "any penalties to a creature's AC..." quote indicates exactly what you suggest.
You were right. It is clear that anything that modifies you Dex modifier to AC also modifies your Dex modifier to CMD.
You were right. It is clear that anything that modifies you Dex modifier to AC also modifies your Dex modifier to CMD.
Well, actually...
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
By the rules, the AC penalty from stun applies, but the Dex score drop does not. It's only flat-footed opponents that lose their Dexterity modifier to CMD. Things that are flat-footed lose their Dex mod to AC/CMD, but the reverse is by no means always true. If they meant it to apply to blinded targets as well, the sentence I bolded would read much differently.
Thematically, I guess you could compare it to still knowing how to maintain combat footing in a fight even though you can't quite see at the moment. You still can't react to an enemy's incoming blow quite as well (their effective +2 to CMB), but if they try to wrestle away your weapon or grapple you it's not quite as easy as if you were caught completely unaware.
Being blind and being attacked by an invisible enemy are both effectively a -2 to your AC and CMD.
A blind target loses his dex to AC and takes a -2 penalty to AC.
In the quote you listed it even says:
Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.
Being blind and being attacked by an invisible enemy are both effectively a -2 to your AC and CMD.
A blind target loses his dex to AC and takes a -2 penalty to AC.
In the quote you listed it even says:
Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.
Being denied a bonus isn't the same thing as a penalty. A penalty is something like the -4 to AC and attacks from squeezing. It is NOT something like losing your Dex bonus to AC when climbing. From the CRB:
Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.
If you can't apply it to your AC, then it does not apply to CMD. The book specifically says add to CMD what you add to AC barring armor and shield bonuses, so if I dont get that dex bonus to my AC then I don't get it to CMD either.
If they meant it to apply to blinded targets as well, the sentence I bolded would read much differently.
It is unreasonable to expect the design team to mention CMD in every instance that AC is penalized/modified/whatever; it would cause unnecessary rules bloat. Instead, the rules expect the reader to assimilate that CMD is essentially AC with a different base calculation and some specifically mentioned differences in handling modifiers, just as a CMB roll is essentially an attack roll with a different base calculation and some specifically mentioned differences in handling modifiers. This requires far less redundancy and achieves the same effect.
If they meant it to apply to blinded targets as well, the sentence I bolded would read much differently.It is unreasonable to expect the design team to mention CMD in every instance that AC is penalized/modified/whatever; it would cause unnecessary rules bloat. Instead, the rules expect the reader to assimilate that CMD is essentially AC with a different base calculation and some specifically mentioned differences in handling modifiers, just as a CMB roll is essentially an attack roll with a different base calculation and some specifically mentioned differences in handling modifiers. This requires far less redundancy and achieves the same effect.
All the Design Team would have had to do in this case would be to use this sentence instead of the one I bolded: "A creature that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC also loses its Dexterity bonus to CMD". They didn't. Instead, they very specifically tied it to the flat-footed condition.
The reason I keep bringing this up is that flat-footed is a very specific condition that comes up under much less diverse circumstances than simply losing your Dex mod to your defenses. The latter situation triggers off of being flat-footed, stunned, blinded, climbing, cowering, pinned, or swimming under less than completely ideal conditions. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, too. What it does NOT do, however, is prevent you from taking attacks of opportunity, which flat-footed does prevent. If the developers didn't want there to be a clear distinction, then the definition of CMD needs to be clearly and unambiguously altered to something approaching what I've laid out above.Look, I get it: the conditions are similar and there's nothing saying a reasonable and entirely understandable house-rule can't be made to conflate 'Denied Dex to AC' to 'denied Dex to AC & CMD'. My point is simply that the rules don't clearly and explicitly support what you're trying to assert; in fact, they kind of work contrary to it.
What it does NOT do, however, is prevent you from taking attacks of opportunity, which flat-footed does prevent.
Right, the only difference between Denied Dex to AC and Flat-footed seems to be that one also denies you AOO's. So it would seem that both would otherwise be applied to CMD. I really don't know how you could not apply a DEX bonus to your AC and still be able to apply it to CMD, of which DEX is a major component.
However, a counter-argument would be that a flat-footed character doesn't lose their DEX bonus to their Reflex saves, right? It would make sense for them to have to subtract their DEX bonus from that as well.
If you can't apply it to your AC, then it does not apply to CMD. The book specifically says add to CMD what you add to AC barring armor and shield bonuses, so if I dont get that dex bonus to my AC then I don't get it to CMD either.
Incorrect. Large sized bonuses and effective BAB increases wouldn't apply to AC, but they DO apply to CMD. CMD is not derived from AC for this very reason.
Also, you'll notice in the part I quoted above that CMD gains the benefit of any TYPED AC bonus, not typeless. It's only if it's called out specifically in the class ability, spell, or whatever that it applies to both. For example, monk AC bonus, ANOTHER example of how they consider the two quite distinct in the Core Book. Interesting, hmmm?
I think you guys are also forgetting about one very important implication of this 'Dex to AC = Dex to CMD'. Namely, max Dex bonus on armor. If you're wearing full-plate, that's one point of Dex mod max to your AC AND to your CMD. The rules as written give heavy armor-wearing PCs better CMD if they have a higher Dex score than just 12 or 13. Equating the two defensive stats in all ways where Dex is concerned will result in a blow to PC defenses, meaning you essentially have to sacrifice one to be good at the other.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.
That means you have to be getting that bonuses to AC. Otherwise you don't get them to CMD.
Is Bob currently getting Bonus X to his AC?
Yes: He gets it to his CMD then
No: He does not get it to CMD
In other words being denied dex means you can't use it.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.That means you have to be getting that bonuses to AC. Otherwise you don't get them to CMD.
Is Bob currently getting Bonus X to his AC?
Yes: He gets it to his CMD then
No: He does not get it to CMD
In other words being denied dex means you can't use it.
I'm not sure you read what I wrote in that post. Circumstance, dodge, deflection, all are types of bonus. CMD explicitly states that <insert long list of bonus types> to AC also apply to CMD. Sometimes you have bonuses to AC that don't technically have a type, like with cover. Something that gives a typeless bonus to AC would not, by definition, apply to your CMD unless it specifies otherwise. Case in point: cover to AC versus the monk armor bonus to AC/CMD.
If you are denied dex then you use your flatfooted AC because you can't react to the attack. The same logic applies to CMD. You can ask Mark in his thread if you need something more official.