Give me build advice for Synthesist using manufactured weapon


Advice

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Okay, so I've got an Aasimar Synthesist summoner with his first feat already selected (Racial Heritage: Half-elf) and 3rd feat planned (martial weapon proficiency in some weapon). Starting at level 1 but may get to level 20.

Due to character constraints, the eidolon-suit MUST be bipedal, and cannot go overboard with arms (I can MAYBE see 4 total arms, and 2 of them hidden under a cloak most of the time), so no Kali-ma build. The eidolon-suit is supposed to look like an Angel.

I *can* use natural weapons, although they cannot be the focus of the build, and let's say we'll limit it attacks that can accomplished with Wings and Limbs (arms/legs). Bite attacks are likely not thematic. Try to stay within 3 natural attacks that can be used in conjunction with iteratives.

The character's alignment is Evil, so certain evolutions are out. Emulating undead is also thematically out.

Given these constraints, what is an effective build assuming I want to do decent damage but not be glass cannon? I haven't really seen a good Synthesist Summoner guide around here, so I humbly ask for help! :)


From evolutions, you definately want Reach (Weapon) and Ability Increase (Strength). I suggest taking Exotic weapon proficiency: Fauchard for the reach and the high crit range. Alternatively a 2lvl dip in Paladin would give you martial Weapon Proficiency (use a Baurdiche) and Cha to saves. Take the Large evolution as soon as possible. Take Power Attack and Combat Reflexes. This way you will threat a very large area around you and take a lot of AoOs. Arcane Strike is nice. Take as many Improved Natural Armor as you are allowed. Flight and Fast Healing are good evolutions too.

With 4 arms, you can also wield a shield and still have a hand free for taking advantage of a style feat tree. For the later, 1 lvl dip in MoMS Monk would be a good idea.


I'd have to waste a feat on Shield Proficiency though. Also, Synthesists get Shield Meld (and greater versions thereof).

A fauchard does seem like a good idea. Do you recommend Stand Still or Improved Trip? I think I'm going to be pretty feat-starved.

Actually, I wonder if Grappling would be a good idea for me, since I'd eventually have ridiculous Strength...


It's really harsh having to waste a feat especially when youre playing something so weak and feeble...


A shield is gonna interfer with Spell casting unless. It is the boring mithril buckler an for that you dont need to spend a feat.
I suggest the reach evolution, a morningstar from level one and pehaps a great sword/elven curved blade/nodachi/Big no reach weapon later. Reac 10 is enough from the start and a normal reach weapon have disadvantages that you dont want. Get combat reflexes and power attack fast. If half elf is to get paragon surge( is is not a summoner spell so i assume this is mot the case)and the favored class evolutions then be aware of your GMs gorgonzola-o-meter.
So to recap
You want
The Armor evolution.
The size increase evolution pehaps only large pehaps all the way.
The reach evolution for your weapon attack
Mage Armor
Enlarge person
Shrink person(for when you are large or huge)
Shield Spell
Pover attack
Combat reflexes
The evolution spells and the self heal spells for the Eidelon.
And the rest will be history.
Yes and no level dips.


Depends on how your DM will allow access to wands of lesser rejuvenate Eidolon. As a synthesist that's your ONLY option for healing. Note that XMorsX's suggestions of Reach(weapon) is probably against RAI, although i can't link dev post or FAQ on the matter. Also, Fast healing does nothing for your Eidolon, since the suit only provides temp HP. Might be semi-useful to heal you after you uplinked your own HP to refill the suit that should've gone "poof" after an attack, but that's it. I am not even sure the evo thus applies to you.

So in the end, since you NEED a lot of rejuvenate spells, it's 1) a spell tax, and 2) a feat tax to pick up craft wands at level 5 if your DM won't let you buy some. You really don't want to waste all your daily slots on it, so the wand is a must.

With that in mind, I would drop the martial/exotic weapon proficiency and just use a long spear, which you are proficient with from the get-go.

Natural armor evo at level 1 and 5 are no brainers. Ability Increase (STR) as XMorsX said, before you go large. Skip the elemental dmg, since you won't focus on natural attacks.

Reflavor the bite as a headbutt. So you have 3 attacks from level 1. Remove it for limbs/claws once you get a 4 natural attacks cap. Reflavor the limbs/claws, if you want an angel theme Eidolon/Synthesist: just point out that the mechanics are the same, but the visuals need not lead to a monstruous 4-arms Goro.

Ask if feat retraining is possible. If so grab Multiattack at the earliest so you can make some (maybe not the cap number) natural attacks along with your longspear iteratives at only -2 ea (for natural attacks). At level 9 you retrain your former Multiattack since you get it for free. Alternatively a DM could simply let you choice a new feat and ignore retraining.

A very cheap tactic is to apply the "push" evolution on your natural attacks. No need for reach evo on those. Let's say you have 4 claws and a longspear. you start with your secondary attacks, have 4 attacks at -2 to push the adjacent opponent, then thrust the spear with iteratives as they are now in reach, then 5' back. There you go, out of 5' step full-attack retaliation. Works on equal size enemies without reach. Once you get large, it's even more uselful but the tactical considerations for enemy size and reach become more complexe.

Dark Archive

stuart haffenden wrote:
It's really harsh having to waste a feat especially when youre playing something so weak and feeble...

LOL

I would say grapple or weapons not both.

I personally believe DR is better than fast healing. Regeneration is different! Get a ring. Combat reflexes and lunge are must haves, as are power attack and improved critical. Also consider whirlwind to counter large numbers.


You don't think it's worth it to spend a feat on something with a bigger weapon dice or the trip property?

As for DR, by the time I can get it, I think a lot of high end enemies that we're worried about can bypass them right?

Shadow Lodge

Bard-Sader wrote:

Okay, so I've got an Aasimar Synthesist summoner with his first feat already selected (Racial Heritage: Half-elf) and 3rd feat planned (martial weapon proficiency in some weapon). Starting at level 1 but may get to level 20.

Due to character constraints, the eidolon-suit MUST be bipedal, and cannot go overboard with arms (I can MAYBE see 4 total arms, and 2 of them hidden under a cloak most of the time), so no Kali-ma build. The eidolon-suit is supposed to look like an Angel.

I *can* use natural weapons, although they cannot be the focus of the build, and let's say we'll limit it attacks that can accomplished with Wings and Limbs (arms/legs). Bite attacks are likely not thematic. Try to stay within 3 natural attacks that can be used in conjunction with iteratives.

The character's alignment is Evil, so certain evolutions are out. Emulating undead is also thematically out.

Given these constraints, what is an effective build assuming I want to do decent damage but not be glass cannon? I haven't really seen a good Synthesist Summoner guide around here, so I humbly ask for help! :)

mobile suit gundam....


Bard-Sader wrote:

You don't think it's worth it to spend a feat on something with a bigger weapon dice or the trip property?

As for DR, by the time I can get it, I think a lot of high end enemies that we're worried about can bypass them right?

I think the first part applies to me. The answer is no. No it isn't worth it. Eidolon have HUGE str scores. That and [weapon enchant / power attack / arcane strike / AoMF for your naturals] will make up 90% of your dmg ouput before long. Even bumped by 3-5 dmg, the weapon dice(die) won't matter much. Of course you lose on the crit range. That's a bummer. But the weapon feat can be postponed for a later slot if you so wish it, when the even higher +DMG modifiers on your attacks will be so large that an added crit range will be very tempting.

As for the trip/disarm abilities, they are really subpar me think. The disarm ability is only a +2 CMB, and the "trip" one only allows you to drop the weapon if the CM failed miserably to avoid being knocked prone yourself. Since you will have reach over your opponents most of the time (reach weapon, enlarge person, large evolution) you will avoid the AoO without the improved feat, most of the time. And just avoid using the CM when you don't. That and the HUGE str score means a more than respectable CMB. Evaluate as you play, but i doubt trying CM on level appropriate opponents will expose you to a -10 CMB vs CMD often, if at all, even on a roll of 1.

You have a big stick and secondary natural attacks. You won't rely on Vital strike either. So the simple long spear is adequate IMO.

That frees up some feats now does it not? Might as well consider Imp. Init, Arcane strike, Power Attack along with combat reflexes... But the most important one is craft wands at level 5 if you are not 110% sure your DM will let you buy wands of rejuvenate. For some hybrid fun (you are still a caster !) you can squeeze in stuff like spell focus (conj), for pit spells/grease/glitter/etc and augment summoning for when the suit goes "poof".

AS for DR, I am not sure. But it can be very useful. DR 5 or 10 /Good in your case, since you are Evil ? Almost too good. Unless you plan on exclusively taking on some "real" angels.


Not exclusively, but we will face some of them and also Paladins. DR/Good is a lot better than DR/Evil you'd say?

Okay, so can you help me plan out a feat progression? I've got

1: Racial Heritage (not going to pull Paragon Surge)
3: Was gonna go MWP or EWP. Now should go Combat Reflexes Instead? Dex probably not high enough to make use of much.
5: Power Attack? Or go Extra Evolution?

I guess the question really is WHEN should I take PA and CR and Arcane Strike, and when I should take extra evolution and such?

Does Arcane Strike also enhance my Natural weapons?


Yes for arcane strike on natural attacks. That makes it an awesome feat on a Synthesist which can get a good number of those + manufactured weapons.

I can't really help you on the build itself, the pointers provided come from succinct analysis.

Food for thoughts : PA is iffy on a build that is 3/4 BAB in itself and has more than half it's attack at -5 or -2 to hit (secondary attacks, without and with Multiattack, respectively). After several levels, once multiattack is grabbed (either at lev 9 or with a regular feat), and a good enough str mod is achieved to alleviate the lack of BAB and those -5/-2, then PA becomes interesting. IMO.

At the same time, Arcane strike has no to-hit penalty. So it's useful from the get go, albeit with lower return on your 2handed weapon, but better/regular return on your secondary/primary attacks than PA.

Combat reflexes is good with a reach weapon with a decent Dex. A biped lacks the latter unless you invest in ability increase (dex). Which can be done along with (str) prior to lev 6 no problem. Lack of evo pts might be the problem. IF your DM allows you easy access to wands of rejuvenate, then the level 5 feat could be combat reflexes, and by then you can have some spare evo pts to invest in that ability increase.

As for extra evolution, I am not sure i would use it. I mean if spare feats slot come along down the road it's a solid choice, but I would prefer to invest in PA, CR, AS, craft wand (if needed), and your heritage feat. that brings you to level 7 minimum before you can even consider it. And we haven't even considered spellfocus (conj), Augment summ and improved init. Of which the last is pure gold for any build.

Alternatively, drop CR. forget about spellfocus and Augment Summ. Go spear + natural attacks, and use the spare feats for evo pts. Until you get sufficient str, mixing naturals with the spear attack will be very lackluster, unless you grab multiattack early.


I'm still trying to decide if a reach weapon is good for me. Let's say I get Enlarged. Now there is a 10ft zone around me where my longspear can't reach.

Shadow Lodge

Bard-Sader wrote:
I'm still trying to decide if a reach weapon is good for me. Let's say I get Enlarged. Now there is a 10ft zone around me where my longspear can't reach.

still only 5 feet.


Umm...that's not how I know the rules. Can you support your assertion?


Bard-Sader wrote:
I'm still trying to decide if a reach weapon is good for me. Let's say I get Enlarged. Now there is a 10ft zone around me where my longspear can't reach.

You have a point here. The fact that after 8th lvl you can (and should) be permanenty Enlarged may be a good reason to use a non-reach weapon.

Another nice idea is to take the Eldrich Heritage (Orc) feats for massive Str and generally martial bonuses. Make sure to take the trait Optimistic Gambler for increasing the duration of Touch of Rage. You could go like this as far as feats are concearned:

Half Elf Synthesist

Trait: Optimistic Gambler, Reactionary

1 Racial Heritage: Half-elf
3 Martial Weapon Proficiency: Nodachi
5 Combat Reflexes
7 Power Attack
9 Lunge
11 Dimensional Agility
13 Dimensional Assault
15 Dimensional Dervish
17 Dazing Assault
19 Arcane Strike

Half-Elf favored class bonus every lvl.

EDIT: You are an Aasimar already, I changed the build. Removed Eldrich Heritage.

Shadow Lodge

Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.

do you know what adjacent means? you have a 5 foot dead zone and 10 feet of reach if you are a tall+large sized creature and using a reach weapon.


TheSideKick wrote:

Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.

do you know what adjacent means? you have a 5 foot dead zone and 10 feet of reach if you are a tall+large sized creature and using a reach weapon.

You are wrong here. Check in this page the images for Reach Weapons and Threatened Areas.


My thoughts for your evolution points. Basically I give priority to Reach (Nodachi) and Ability Increase (Strenght), grabbing Large asap and after these Improved Natural Armor. The rest are fillers. Favored class bonus included. Remember that you have Evolution Surge for the times that you need useful but situational evolutions like flight or fast healing.

1st lvl (3 evo points): Reach (whatever), Ability Increase (Strenght)

4th lvl (8 points): Reach (Nodachi), Ability Increase (Strenght), Improved Natural Armor, Ability Increase (Dexterity), Skilled (Perception)

8th lvl (13 points): Large (4p), Reach (Nodachi) (1p), Ability Increase (Strenght) (4p), Ability Increase (Dexterity) (2p), Improved Natural Armor (1p), Improved Natural Armor (1p)

12th lvl (19 points): Large (4p), Reach (Nodachi) (1p), Ability Increase (Strenght) (4p), Ability Increase (Strenght) (4p), Ability Increase (Dexterity) (2p), Improved Natural Armor (1p), Improved Natural Armor (1p), Improved Natural Armor (1p), Skilled (Perception) (1p)

16th lvl (25 points): Large (10p), Reach (Nodachi) (1p), Ability Increase (Strenght) (4p), Ability Increase (Strenght) (4p), Ability Increase (Dexterity) (2p), Ability Increase (Dexterity) (2p), Improved Natural Armor (1p), Improved Natural Armor (1p)

20th lvl (31 points): Large (10p), Reach (Nodachi) (1p), Ability Increase (Strenght) (4p), Ability Increase (Strenght) (4p),Ability Increase (Strenght) (4p), Ability Increase (Dexterity) (2p), Ability Increase (Dexterity) (2p), Improved Natural Armor (1p), Improved Natural Armor (1p), Improved Natural Armor (1p), Improved Natural Armor (1p)


Given the campaign, I don't think Eastern Weapons will be commonplace or even available, but an Elven Curveblade might do the trick. It's basically a longer scimitar.

The only problem is...my weapon does NOT change in size with my eidolon's evolutions :(

BTW: Why the Dimensional line of feats?


An argument for a reach weapon even when going large at lev 8:

By then you have 4 natural attacks. And at level 9 (so only 1 "suboptimal" level), you have Multiattack. That means that you can have (ideally) 4 claw attacks with "push" on them all, @ -2 from full BAB. You have 4 chances to push the initially adjacent enemy for at least 5'. Then you can take your 5' step back and enjoy your reach weapon.

As for XMorsX's build, while the Nodachi is possibly one of the best weapon to use a feat on, i'd avoid taking it so early. You could very well put Arcane strike to good use much sooner too.

And thx for the link XMorsX, i bookmarked it for reference !

Nobody mentions craft wand for synthesists. Ever.

In my experience it's a must, maybe because of DM's opinion on availability of magic items in general. But also because Summoner can make kickass wands of baleful polymorph ! Mass bear endurance !! Overland flight (for your buddy with UMD) !!! and many others ! granted that last bit is more useful for most summoner that aren't synthesist, but the point on wands of rejuvenate stands.


Bard-Sader wrote:

Given the campaign, I don't think Eastern Weapons will be commonplace or even available, but an Elven Curveblade might do the trick. It's basically a longer scimitar.

The only problem is...my weapon does NOT change in size with my eidolon's evolutions :(

BTW: Why the Dimensional line of feats?

Elven Curve Blade is the next best thing, go ahead. It is a shame that your weapon does not grow certainly, but what can we do? The power boost from medium to large and from large to huge is just to great to ignore. Don't get too attached with your sword, don't invest in it heavily (+1 keen is probably fine until you feel comftable investing more money).

Read the description of the Dimentional Dervish. It is just full of win.


Jellyfulfish wrote:

An argument for a reach weapon even when going large at lev 8:

By then you have 4 natural attacks. And at level 9 (so only 1 "suboptimal" level), you have Multiattack. That means that you can have (ideally) 4 claw attacks with "push" on them all, @ -2 from full BAB. You have 4 chances to push the initially adjacent enemy for at least 5'. Then you can take your 5' step back and enjoy your reach weapon.

As for XMorsX's build, while the Nodachi is possibly one of the best weapon to use a feat on, i'd avoid taking it so early. You could very well put Arcane strike to good use much sooner too.

And thx for the link XMorsX, i bookmarked it for reference !

Nobody mentions craft wand for synthesists. Ever.

In my experience it's a must, maybe because of DM's opinion on availability of magic items in general. But also because Summoner can make kickass wands of baleful polymorph ! Mass bear endurance !! Overland flight (for your buddy with UMD) !!! and many others ! granted that last bit is more useful for most summoner that aren't synthesist, but the point on wands of rejuvenate stands.

It is indeed a very nice link, I use it often. :)

I agree that the martial proficiency is not need until you can afford to make the said weapon keen. I putted it at third lvl because Bard-Sader said he wanted this feat at third. I would probably take it at 5th or 7th lvl, about when I would probably make my weapon keen anyway.

Multiattack is interesting, but I'd rather keep all the feats I posted. Also, after 8th lvl, ability increases eat through the evolution points, no room for natural attacks or you lose Str or AC.

Finally craft wands is not a bad choice, the lowered spell lvl is indeed tempting to make wands. It is a consideration.

I am editing the evolutions, you need to raise dexterity as well as str in order to maintain 12 Dex as you become larger.


Yeah, but the moment I Push one away, the rest of my nat attacks are wasted since the target is now out of range.


Not when you are large. You attack with all 4 attacks, starting adjacent. AS soon as a free CM connects, the rest of your pushing attacks don't use the free CM. Once those attacks are made, you 5' step back and thurst the spear.


Eh, the dimensional line isn't worth it. WAAAAY too many feats. Plus, I only get like 3 Dim Doors a day max...and that's at Level 18 or something.


You can workout the details, you grasped the mechanics.

Yeah, you can optimize the distance at the end of your round by forgo-ing part of your natural attacks, when enemy is out of reach of you naturals, then attack at reach with weapon THEN 5' step back. OR, once large, connect all your naturals, 5' step back, then thrust.

I just think that claws or tentacles are offering so much tactical advantage/tools with push evo to be set aside at high (10+) level. Even if it's only tentaclesx4 + push, thats 5 evo for so much win with a reach weapon (long spear, so frees a feat).

As for the reach(weapon), seriously, just hone your skills to be ready to dodge a book coming at you from the DM.


Bard-Sader wrote:
Eh, the dimensional line isn't worth it. WAAAAY too many feats. Plus, I only get like 3 Dim Doors a day max...and that's at Level 18 or something.

It is not just the dimentional dervish. Both dimensional agility and dimensional assault are useful to you. Without these dimension door is way less useful in combat situations. And you have both the spell and the Maker's Jump class feature that is essentially a Dimensional Door spell-like.


Those feats are kind of nice. Alternate pounce of some sort. But it is very feat heavy.

Those feats on a Kali type build with one hand free to wield a wand of DDoor would be awesome, but not for a Angel theme Synthesist that want to keep close to a regular biped with 2 arms.

If you wonder why i proposed the claws/tentacles Nat. Attacks even with that in mind, I just had Tyriel from Diablo computer games in mind. Wings are fashioned in such a way that you can easily fluff those attacks as such.

Without a wand DDoor spells are too few, and slots too precious to rely upon for such usual tactic that fixes 3 feats.

Dark Archive

XMorsX wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:
Eh, the dimensional line isn't worth it. WAAAAY too many feats. Plus, I only get like 3 Dim Doors a day max...and that's at Level 18 or something.
It is not just the dimentional dervish. Both dimensional agility and dimensional assault are useful to you. Without these dimension door is way less useful in combat situations. And you have both the spell and the Maker's Jump class feature that is essentially a Dimensional Door spell-like.

In my experience, the feat investment has never made it worth it.


hum...

Maker’s Jump (Sp) is 1/day at level 6, +1/day for every 6 levels thereafter

Maker’s Call (Su), the ability it replaces (along with transposition) when Synthesist, is 1/day at level 6 + 1/day for every 4 levels thereafter.

That's weird. Slight nerf out of nowhere.

Sczarni

Give it fast healing, bam once you're out of combat you don' tneed to use a single spell to heal it =D

Dark Archive

Skip the extra hands and get more energy immunities.


fast healing doesn't heal Temp HP lantzkev. unless i missed a FAQ/dev post. be kind to enlighten me. Because as i understand it, ONLY way to heal temp HP of the Synthesist is the spell rejuvenate eidolon, or let it die to come back next day at half hp.

Sczarni

I guess I should of clarified to take the life conduit spell as well as fast healing, one spell to heal all your damage basically while you heal up from the damage you inflict on yourself.


I fail to see the advantage over rejuvenate Eidolon. Both are spells, both need to be cast several times a day, both SHOULD end up being a wand. In case DM is iffy on magical item availability, you need craft wand in both cases.

Life conduit need fast healing, so level 11. So 4 evo pts down, only available high level, and you don't achieve more than Rejuvenate spells. And that's assuming fast healing works on summoner, eventhough it's an evolution. Unless you mean to apply the evo to the summoner via Greater aspect at level 18 ? There is precedent on evo for the synthesist not applying to the summoner, like the mental stats increase (cha-int-wis) that won't work on the summoner.

Sczarni

you do achieve more than the rejuvinate spells.

Fast healing to full, you cast life conduit once and you heal your "temp hps" 11d6 at lvl 11 for a single spell. (so 11-66hp)

Conversly you lesser rejuvinate eidolon and heal 6-13hp, you cast is twice, 12-26, three times 18-39, four times, 24-52hp, or five times 30-65hp...

Any evolutions on the eidolon work on the summoner while you're fused. If they didn't then you'd be stuck with either a) fast healing heals the eidolon (above FAQ does not state that, it infact says it does not heal the suits hp) so it must heal the summoner or it must do nothing.

Quote:
Fast Healing (Su): An eidolon's body gains the ability to heal wounds very quickly, giving it fast healing 1. The eidolon heals 1 point of damage each round, just like natural healing.
Quote:
The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.


That's still for level 11. For 75% of you character career (or 55% in case the OP goes to 20) you need Rejuvenate...

And to put it in perspective of opportunity cost, pretty much everyone agrees that a feat is worth less than 4 evo pts, hence everyone picking a weapon proficiency via feat instead of evo.

Same math applies here : infinite HP for a feat (craft wand - lesser rejuvenate amounts to pocket change eventually, so no GP in the equation when the dilemma at level 11 arises), or for few spell slots (level 1) and 4 evo pts (fast healing). Since you need the former to get through earlier levels, the feat is already spent making it a false dilemma unless you start at 11. No ?

Edit : The d6's per round as a swift can be a fight changer. I grant you that.

Sczarni

So your objection to me mentioning this isn't that it's effective, useful, or good, but that you can use one of your at most 5 feats (this is an aasimar after all) on crafting a wand to make healing work ok.... gotcha.

you don't ever NEED craft wand to get through levels, I will agree you'll need lesser rejuv eidolon earlier on for sure though.

At lvl 11, a summoner gets 6-7 level one spells a day roughly. He has 6 feats, three of which were probably used on extra evolutions. so you are saying it's better to spend one of the three remaining slots making buying wands.... also it doesn't solve the problem of healing the summoner himself either.

I can't convieve of any scenario on this planet that you could persuade me to not bother with the fast healing + life conduit combo for a summoner, it's literally a fully healed summoner between every encounter, and a eidolon fully healed for one spell (maybe two) with zero gold cost or feat cost involved.

Hell you spend three feats for fast healer and now you're healing 2+hp a round in combat without using an action....

-edit- the other thing is at the lower levels where the gold matters and the feats matter more, your party members can heal you but you're limited in healing your eidolon, dropping all your lvl 1 slots to heal it between combat is pretty unappealing compared to damaging yourself and healing it, (repeatedly and for one spell) and let the healers with more effecient heals heal you (channel, infernal healing etc)


Crafting wands has tons of benefits besides fully healing the Suit. At low levels, as a spell, rejuvenate is less effective than life conduit, but life conduit requires another source of healing afterwards. Most of the time, that's going to be a CLW wand. As a synthesist, it's pretty much equivalent to burn couple charges of rejuvenate lesser wand or to cast 1 life conduit and use couple CLW charges, although the former didn't cost you a spell slot.

While appealing for combat at level 11+, as far as out of combat healing goes, the combo Fast healing + life conduit is still only 1d6-1 HP dmg to you for 1d6 Temp HP to the suit. You trade a spell slot (level 1) for charges of the CLW injector. Don't you ?

I don't want to dismiss your combo as ineffective, I really want to understand why you think it's so amazing.

As for saying you spend feats on extra evolutions, I think feats are scarce enough NOT to do that as a synthesist. But as far as saying a feat is less valuable than 4 evo pts, then yes, that's the other extreme.

In case of the base class (non-synthesist) Fast healing working on the beast in melee range + life conduit spells, while you UMD CXW at a distance (invisible) do sound nice.

Sczarni

ok your points are confusing as all get out about evolution points, most summoners want to focus on their... you'll be surprised to hear this, summon, notably the Eidolon. Specifically Synthesists.

When for four points, you're never in need of out of combat healing that's amazing, don't care who you are. Then when you factor in that in combat you can turn that into so much more through either feats, or just increasing the evolutions of fast healing....

Specifically because in combat, you need to be spending those standards to do something else.

But if you're unclear as to why fasthealing is amazing it's as simple as this.

With it and a single casting of a 1st lvl spell, both you and your "skin" as a synthesist are completely healed in a realtively short period of time with no cost. In combat your fast healing is amazing as well for you can heal while performing no action to be healed.

Spending a single action and then multiple swift actions for free beats spending gold and multiple standard actions any day. Likewise in combat, if you're full health being able to pump your temp hps back up for a swift action is great. Action economy, and gold economy, and spell slot economy....

Dark Archive

lantzkev wrote:

ok your points are confusing as all get out about evolution points, most summoners want to focus on their... you'll be surprised to hear this, summon, notably the Eidolon. Specifically Synthesists.

When for four points, you're never in need of out of combat healing that's amazing, don't care who you are. Then when you factor in that in combat you can turn that into so much more through either feats, or just increasing the evolutions of fast healing....

Specifically because in combat, you need to be spending those standards to do something else.

But if you're unclear as to why fasthealing is amazing it's as simple as this.

With it and a single casting of a 1st lvl spell, both you and your "skin" as a synthesist are completely healed in a realtively short period of time with no cost. In combat your fast healing is amazing as well for you can heal while performing no action to be healed.

Spending a single action and then multiple swift actions for free beats spending gold and multiple standard actions any day. Likewise in combat, if you're full health being able to pump your temp hps back up for a swift action is great. Action economy, and gold economy, and spell slot economy....

Maxed out fast healing will not out pace damage. That is why clerics are encouraged to use their resources in other ways. It's a huge point investment that can be duplicated in other ways. It's better to use those points to stop damage completely or to give your self better control of conflicts. Immunity energies awesome damage negation DR / lawful (chaos) fewer enemies can bypass. Frightful presence awesome. For a synthesis.


I'll make it clearer. Or try to.

Forget about the craft wands or rejuvenate versus Life conduit. The end question is : Is 4 evo points worth fast healing 1 ?

You cannot rely on the fast healing in combat. So it's just to get to full HP after a fight. You just save on charges of a wand. Be that rejuvenate, or CLW if you cast life conduit.

I prefer 4 evo pts spent on defense or offense rather than to be "self-sufficient" and avoid popping charges of a 750 gp stick. Half that cost if you went with craft wand.

The combat use of life conduit is a nice thing to consider in the equation, but it's not OMG i'm invulnerable. The healing (via life conduit) is very nice, but fast healing doesn't add anything worth noting to the deal, 1hp per round?. And it eats up a standard action to cast the spell (rather than attack, yourself) and then a swift action every round. So you lose on Arcane strike, which with 4-5 naturals +2 or 3 iteratives is good damage.

So Life conduit, in itsefl, can be useful. But it doesn't require Fast healing to work on it's own. Fast healing is only allowing you to avoid burning charges of a CLW wand, which is pocket change. To me it's not worth 4 evo pts.

Sczarni

I never once suggested you'd max out fast healing Titania, I don't know about you but at the higher levels of play our combats are either over lightning fast or are over quite a few rounds (running combat basically no downtime, several encounters strung together) healing 60hp over 20 rounds is nothing to sneeze at for no action.

If you're stressing over not using arcane strike, you're clearly in a more min/max'd mindset that I or most people play with.

I'm guessing you're also going to suggest he dumps str and dex to 7...

Dark Archive

No dumping str and dex because the synthesized eisolon can still be banished and you have to hold your own.

Even elwith fast healing 1 you can negate all fire and ice damage or lightening and acid damage or whatever. I'm saying even 4 points can be better spent elsewhere.

Sczarni

But that's what lesser evo surge is for. Why spend two evo points on something that hits one of the 5 elements vs spending 4 and always be full health between encounters, have healing during encounter (seriously if it saves you even a single action during combat that's more damage going out)

Why do you think dumping str and dex isn't a good idea for a synthesist? Do you think a synthesist is a meaningful combatant on his own? That any combat without his suit is going to be melee for him?

lolz


lantzkev wrote:

I never once suggested you'd max out fast healing Titania, I don't know about you but at the higher levels of play our combats are either over lightning fast or are over quite a few rounds (running combat basically no downtime, several encounters strung together) healing 60hp over 20 rounds is nothing to sneeze at for no action.

If you're stressing over not using arcane strike, you're clearly in a more min/max'd mindset that I or most people play with.

I'm guessing you're also going to suggest he dumps str and dex to 7...

Wow. really. ok. Have it your way. Suggesting your best combo ever as the thing to behold. Then someone comes around and tells you it might not be THAT awesome, and all you care to answer is "go home you min/maxer" ?

Sczarni

you're worried about applying something that adds trivial damage except at the highest lvls (manufactured attacks, he's either going to go one attack or twf (and use feats for it)

This concern for adding trivial amounts of damage is min maxing. This kind of thought process usually leads also to "dump str and dex because you don't use yours in the suit"

At any rate let me break this down more clearly for you since for some reason you want to poo poo on an evolution you clearly don't understand.

As a synthesist in combat, you have a temp hp buffer. In combat there are only two ways of restoring these. "rejuvevnate eidolon" and "conduit" then there's the transference of your hp to it to maintain it at 1 hp...

Spending a standard to then heal the same amount nearly as a swift action for lvl/rds is more effecient in combat than anything you can come up with. Not only that but it lets you a) have your fast healing be effective at all points in combat and b) lets you keep the temp hps buffer full while letting your clerics abilities like channel etc be more effective (ie it'll heal you now since you have hp dmg)

Fast healing also has the benefit of regrowing lost limbs, preventing scaring etc. These are benefits not always realised in a game, but it's a great benefit.

In short fast healing is always useful. Spending four points for fire and lightning immunity is not or spending 10pts to be immune to everything...(and is easily handled by things like "evolution surge" which come in slots you're not super concerned about alot of times) and can still be thwarted by abilities, or force, or conjurations, etc... hit points (the currency of the game) is always used in every encounter that's relevant to this conversation. The ability to without intervention, action usage etc, to regenerate that currency is incredibly valuable. It's why the ring of regeneration is priced at 90k.

Just because you do not understand the value of regeneration, the system does, and many players do. Fast healing though is always relevant in combat and the subsequent healing afterwards. If you're solo, it's the only way to heal yourself as a summoner really without umd (and thus wands/scrolls/potions)


lantzkev wrote:

you're worried about applying something that adds trivial damage except at the highest lvls (manufactured attacks, he's either going to go one attack or twf (and use feats for it)

This concern for adding trivial amounts of damage is min maxing. This kind of thought process usually leads also to "dump str and dex because you don't use yours in the suit"

That's quite a leap. First the dmg is good, especially when combining Naturals with manufactured. OP mentioned he might add naturals to a main manufactured weapon attack.

Implying that this leads to min/maxing 7 str and dex character ? I rolled my eyes at that one. Just a little.

lantzkev wrote:
At any rate let me break this down more clearly for you since for some reason you want to poo poo on an evolution you clearly don't understand.

Yes, lets talk about this evolution. Why do you think it's worth 4 evo pts ? I asked twice already. This is the third time.

lantzkev wrote:


As a synthesist in combat, you have a temp hp buffer. In combat there are only two ways of restoring these. "rejuvevnate eidolon" and "conduit" then there's the transference of your hp to it to maintain it at 1 hp...

Spending a standard to then heal the same amount nearly as a swift action for lvl/rds is more effecient in combat than anything you can come up with. Not only that but it lets you a) have your fast healing be effective at all points in combat and b) lets you keep the temp hps buffer full while letting your clerics abilities like channel etc be more effective (ie it'll heal you now since you have hp dmg)

If you don't have Fast healing you can still do that... nothing prevents you form using life conduit. You only miss on 1 hp per round.

The rest of your post actually address why you think Fast healing is good. Although i've never had to deal with loss of limbs (!!!) in a game.

Oh, and I don't want to burst your bubble but :

"A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptional rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature’s entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a creature dies, at which point the effects of fast healing end immediately."

So you don't regrow lost body parts. Comparing to a ring of regeneration is also unfair, the latter prevents bleed, whereas Fast healing doesn't, for example; it's not the same ability. And it doesn't mean the ring is a good choice at that price either.

You made your points, and i am unconvinced. Your name calling and pretentious stance on the matter filled my cup. Have a good day.

Sczarni

Quote:
You made your points, and i am unconvinced. Your name calling and pretentious stance on the matter filled my cup. Have a good day.

yeap name calling...

You've yet to explain at all why fast healing isn't worth 4pts other than "well I could be immune to fire"

Also as to your arcane strike with the natural attacks, only works on weapons.

Quote:

Arcane Strike (Combat)

You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

I find it interesting you can declare small increases to damage important for combat, but small increases to healing is somehow vastly unimportant.

Lets say you're a large eidolon at lvl 11, rocking a 18 con (or better if you have a belt! so let's say 22 for the giggles)

You have a HP pool (assuming averages) of 124(99)(11d8+66)[9d10+54]

Do you know how many charges it'll take out of combat to heal you up (both your temp hps and your real hps) using wands, or lvl 1 spell slots compared to using fast healing and a conduit or two.

Go read about character optimization for clerics, guess what's not focus on, healing, because it's ineffecient use of actions, resources, etc... both in combat and out of combat. you have a four point evolution that bypass that usual situation.

I'm not here to convince you really though, but if you're going to argue with me about a point I've made for the sake of the poster you can at least have the decency to consider the real world game situations, and not some optimized "hur hurr nothing hurts me" style game that few find enjoyable, and even less GMs approve of.

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