Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 36 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've had a PFS character for a couple years, that I stopped playing because practically every table ran the rules differently.
I'll state how I believe the rules interact, and request a FAQ response. If you feel my interpretation is wrong (or right) please click FAQ and tell me how I'm wrong.
First here are the rules:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
Charge Through
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Elephant Stomp
Benefit: When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone, you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space) and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action.
Situation (P = character, W = enemy in the way, T = target)
P===W====T
P has Greater Overrun, Elephant Stomp, and Charge Through
Move P to the square before W.
P makes a free action Overrun of W.
If P fails, the Charge action fails and P is done.
If P succeeds by 5, W is prone and provokes from all threatening W.
Move P to the square before T.
P makes an Overrun of T "as part of a charge."
If P fails, then P makes a +2 attack against T.
If P succeeds by 4 or less, then P overruns and Charge actions fails.
P chooses to Elephant Stomp as an Immediate attack and doesn't Overrun.
P makes the +2 Charge attack.
Notes:
Charge Through appears to allow you to Overrun a second creature in the way, since you can Overrun one target already.
Elephant Stomp combined with a Charge allows an Immediate attack in addition to the attack at the end of the Charge.
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So, situation 1: Player (P) charges Bad Guy (B) and makes a single attack at +2. Meanwhile Bad Guy (G) stands 15 feet behind (B) and quietly eats some popcorn.
Situation 2: (P) charges at (G), using his standard action to Overrun (B). He succeeds. (G) drops his popcorn and draws a weapon, because (P) is now adjacent to him.
Situation 3: (P) charges at (G), using a free action to Overrun (B), succeeds, and continues on to (G), where he makes a single attack at +2.
Situation 4: Same as #3, except (P) attempts to Overrun (G) instead of making an attack. He succeeds by 5 or more. Now (G) is prone, and (P) Elephant Stomps him.
(I think that's basically what you said, too)
Everything seems right to me. How do others run it?
Well... its probably confusing because it IS confusing.
Many player (myself included) believed, before the existence of Charge Through, that you could Overrun one interposing target as part of the movement made to charge something other than that interposing creature.
Then Charge Through came out and said that you could overrun one interposing creature as part of a charge... which either means that Carge Through is a pointless feat, or that you can't overrun an interposing creature to get to the target of a charge without it.
It seems reasonable to decide, then, that you must replace the charge attack with the overrun maneuver, just as you would with a Bull Rush.
But TBH, the RAW on this is just horrible. It is easy to make nearly any interpretation of the rule here. I can say definitively that you can overrun two targets but that is it.
|
|
If you're at my table ever, I'll run it the way I proposed above. If you encounter a GM that's never dealt with Overrun before, point them here.
Oh, certainly, if you fail your first Overrun maneuver, you're screwed. That's probably why I've never seen anyone try this. That, and mounts in PFS are really just hard to pull off.
I wish you the best of luck. Don't know if a lot of people will comment on this, but here's to hoping!
Situation (P = character, W = enemy in the way, T = target)
P===W====T
P has Greater Overrun, Elephant Stomp, and Charge ThroughMove P to the square before W.
P makes a free action Overrun of W.
If P fails, the Charge action fails and P is done.
If P succeeds by 5, W is prone and provokes from all threatening W.
Move P to the square before T.
P makes an Overrun of T "as part of a charge."
If P fails, then P makes a +2 attack against T.
If P succeeds by 4 or less, then P overruns and Charge actions fails.
P chooses to Elephant Stomp as an Immediate attack and doesn't Overrun.
P makes the +2 Charge attack.
I have bolded two parts that might be wrong.
Before your PS do something he/she must declare his/her action.
If you declare that you will overrun W and T and use Elephant Stomp (if you may) on T then you can’t change your actions. So If P fails against T, then P can’t makes a +2 attack against T. Although I might be wrong since the rules on Overrun says “you can attempt to overrun your target”. I’m not sure if “you can” mean “you may”.
Elephant Stomp however is an exception because it is an Immediate that you may use If P succeeds by 5 or more.
If P succeeds by 4 or less, then P overruns, but you shouldn’t really say that the Charge actions fails since the intention was to overrun in the first place.
Our PCs pretty much don’t use any of these feats or use any mounted characters except for the usual casual riding, since these rules and mounted combat rules are too complicated. We once had a small Druid riding a dog. I sure don’t want to go there again.
I have hit the FAQ, good luck on the FAQ.
BTW, I’m not sure what you mean by: “and provokes from all threatening W.”
From my understanding, the confusion is arising because James is assuming you get a charge attack after an overrun attempt? Or am I misreading?
"If P fails, then P makes a +2 attack against T."
This sentence is going to get you into a lot of strife. If your overrun fails, why do you get to swap to a charge attack? Are you using the same logic as above, IE that you still get to make your charge attack after your overrun?
Now, I agree that you SHOULD be able to, because overrun is otherwise virtually useless and elephant stomp is definitely useless.... but I know this is a very contentious topic.
Elephant stomp aside people make the whole charge over run thing confusing by trying to read more into it than it sshould.
Without special feats ( like charge through) all charging and over running does is let you double move and over run someone with the +2 from charge. It only becomes confusing because the other stuff people seem to want it to do require rules exceptions that are not provided.
With charge through p charges t over runs w and attacks t. The normal rules allow only 1 overrun unless an exception is provided you cannot over run two creatures.
All that said i dont think elephant stomp works with charge through. It implies you stop moving on the wrong side of tbe target.
|
It seems to me that the intent of the feats (improved overrun, greater overrun , charge through , and elephant stomp) is to be able to overrun someone in the way of someone you are trying to charge , and you can choose to elephant stomp either target instead of making a charge attack or overrun attempt. It would be great to get some official ruling from Paizo about this.
Elephant stomp aside people make the whole charge over run thing confusing by trying to read more into it than it sshould.
Without special feats ( like charge through) all charging and over running does is let you double move and over run someone with the +2 from charge. It only becomes confusing because the other stuff people seem to want it to do require rules exceptions that are not provided.
With charge through p charges t over runs w and attacks t. The normal rules allow only 1 overrun unless an exception is provided you cannot over run two creatures.
All that said i dont think elephant stomp works with charge through. It implies you stop moving on the wrong side of tbe target.
Agreed with Mojorat--Overrun clearly says it's a standard action (taken during your move or as part of a charge). This means that the advantage of charging with a basic overrun is double movement and +2 to overrun. Doing anything else would be ignoring the standard action requirement that scopes over the whole sentence and instead allowing it as a free action. James's example of the complicated combo is nearly fully correct, except that he shouldn't get that final attack he makes at the end, since the overrun on the final target was the attack.
Elephant stomp works great when you are just over running someone. The problem is when you do it you stop in front of the target rather than going over them. I parsed the poor wording of the feat to assume you srill knock the targer over.
So normal chargw through is p charges w over runs him then with charge through attacks t. If you use elephant stomp you stop on the wrong side of w and can no longer continue the charge.
Rereasing elephant stomp and the special note about it tells me a few things.
Benefit: When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone, you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space) and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action.
Normal: When your overrun maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and she is knocked prone."
First, the not nocking your opponent prone part appears deliberate. Second, you must stop in front of your opponent or the nearest space. Third, the attack must be on the target of the over run.
There is no you can take the imediate action anywhete. You either nock the opponent prone ane overrun or run him or you stop in front and kickhim.
The more I read I don't see what the point is. It doesn't work with greater overrun :(
I have been unable to parse Overrun and any rule that relates to it in any way.
The action cost and the description are contradictory. It's annoying.
Parsing it is easy because of a few factors. We know how overrun works normally. You move and the combat maneuver makes an exception letting you spend a standard action during the move.
For charge we have two examples of other charges. Normal charge double move single attack. If you charge the person being overrun is the target of the charge. You double move and somewhere in there can overrun someone. As I said earlier we know this is how it works as doing anything else requires rules exceptions that are not provided.
If you overrun as part of the charge, the overrun attempt replaces the attack at the end of the charge. Otherwise, where are you getting a standard action to overrun when you've already used a full-round action to charge?
Other than that, James' combo is correct.
Situation (P = character, W = enemy in the way, T = target)
P===W====T
P has Greater Overrun, Elephant Stomp, and Charge ThroughMove P to the square before W.
P makes a free action Overrun of W.
If P fails, the Charge action fails and P is done.
If P succeeds by 5, W is prone and provokes from all threatening W.
Move P to the square before T.
P makes an Overrun of T "as part of a charge."
If P fails, then P makes a +2 attack against T.
If P succeeds by 4 or less, then P overruns and Charge actions fails.
P chooses to Elephant Stomp as an Immediate attack and doesn't Overrun.
P makes the +2 Charge attack.
What you're looking for, instead of Elephant Stomp, is Vicious Stomp, which gives you a free attack whenever anyone falls prone adjacent to you.
It has no additional "this stops your movement" clause, so you can knock someone over, kick them in the face on the way by, and keep going.
Except that Elephant Stomp is an immediate action, so you may still make an attack as normal.
Effectively you are:
Overrunning #1, and knocking them prone.
Moving on to #2, and attacking them twice.(assuming you succeed at all your maneuvers)
Seems pretty decent to me.
Not sure where you are getting two attacks from.
You either make an attack at the end of your charge or attempt an overrun. If you succeed at the overrun, you can attack the opponent instead of knocking them prone or moving through them with Elephant Stomp.
Where is this second attack coming from?
You don't have to charge to Overrun. A regular move works just as well.
You do have to charge to use Charge Through.
With a normal move, you could overrun #1 and use Elephant Stomp instead of tripping him, but that's all you could do.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Overrun is a standard action that can be made as part of a charge action (full action). If it replaced your attack at the end of the charge, why bother saying it can be made as part of a charge action? Wouldn't that just be... an overrun? Unless they really wanted confusing redundancy...
So, the only other option is that you can charge/overrun/attack. Charge Through allows you to overrun a target on the way to the target, and using the normal statement as clarification, that is not normally an option.
That makes the only way to use a overrun/charge/attack combo is to run past your charge victim, while getting the attack. Which counteracts charge rules. Therefore, Charge Through does nothing other than to add confusion.
Except that Elephant Stomp is an immediate action, so you may still make an attack as normal.
Effectively you are:
Overrunning #1, and knocking them prone.
Moving on to #2, and attacking them twice.(assuming you succeed at all your maneuvers)
Seems pretty decent to me.
your missing something. The decision to use elephant stomp effectively ends the overrun action. I order to do it you have to stop and no longer run over the person. Its in the feats description. It isnt 'you may make an imediate attack in the middle over an over run action' it is 'you choose not to run over them to not knock them down. The special note even supports the fact that you normally knock somone over.
So P runs up to W, succeeds on the over run and is now PW T with t over here. He chooses to use elephant stomp and gets his Extra attack. He is now standing on the wrong side of W to continue his charge through and W is no longer knocked off his feat.
I dontknow why you would use this feat over greater over run which lets you nock them over get a free attack and continue running through them.
I'm not sure what this feat is for at all actually.... I mean... really.
Its either a badly worded feat that does not at all convey its intention, or whoever wrote it doesn't understand the rules very well.
Thankfully I just avoid feats from outside of the core books. I mean the number of threads about furys fall are enough to just run from it. And yet people keep asking for faqs even thouhh paizo never faqs stuff outside the core books.
Overrun is a standard action that can be made as part of a charge action (full action).
How do you take a full action and a standard action in the same turn?
How do you take a full action and a standard action in the same turn?Overrun is a standard action that can be made as part of a charge action (full action).
Works for bull rush =)
Except that Elephant Stomp is an immediate action, so you may still make an attack as normal.
Effectively you are:
Overrunning #1, and knocking them prone.
Moving on to #2, and attacking them twice.(assuming you succeed at all your maneuvers)
Seems pretty decent to me.
your missing something. The decision to use elephant stomp effectively ends the overrun action. I order to do it you have to stop and no longer run over the person. Its in the feats description. It isnt 'you may make an imediate attack in the middle over an over run action' it is 'you choose not to run over them to not knock them down. The special note even supports the fact that you normally knock somone over.
So P runs up to W, succeeds on the over run and is now PW T with t over here. He chooses to use elephant stomp and gets his Extra attack. He is now standing on the wrong side of W to continue his charge through and W is no longer knocked off his feat.
I dontknow why you would use this feat over greater over run which lets you nock them over get a free attack and continue running through them.
+1
I don't even know why we have the Elephant Stomp feat.
You can choose when to Elephant Stomp, though. Nothing says you have to Elephant Stomp the first person you Overrun. Just do it to target #2.
First person you over run? Unless anexception is made you can only target one person. Barbarians can get an exceptiin but it is the only one i know of.
@Mojorat. Darn, you seem to be right.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Thanks for the participation guys! Most of the issues brought up in here are similar to what I've seen at tables. I don't really care too much how these feats ultimately interact. I would just like to know how the baseline assumption on how they should interact.
BTW, I’m not sure what you mean by: “and provokes from all threatening W.”
Greater Overrun forces the Overrun person to provoke from everyone threatening.
"If P fails, then P makes a +2 attack against T."
why do you get to swap to a charge attack?
The original action is Charge, so I should get a +2 attack on the target. The adding of Overrun "as part of a charge" is the language I'm using and trying to model how Overrun-ing the target interplays into my attack. Since the way they interact isn't subject to FAQ yet I don't exactly know the meaning of the language "as part of an attack" is yet.
charge over run thing confusing by trying to read more into it than it should.
he shouldn't get that final attack he makes at the end, since the overrun on the final target was the attack.
Possible, but there are not enough words to make this clear enough in the rules to settle the confusion.
---
One of the core problems with my scenario, is that if you fail to successfully overrun the target of the "+2 to attack charge target" then you can't Elephant Stomp him. If you fail to know him prone, then you don't stop before him. If you don't stop before him you have passed the point of legally being able to charge him. This is why I put the qualifier above where if you did succeed between 0 and 4 you fail your Charge.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you remove vicious stomp its easy.
Overrun w/o charge single move somewhere during move you try to knock them over.
Overrun w/charge you double move knock 1 guy over et charge benefits. The person being overrun is the target of the charge. If there is another guy in line and within your move you could end your movement beside him but he is not the target of the charge.
So p. W. T can end as wp. T. Or w. Tp. But w is the charge target.
If you add in g overrun w provokes when he falls on his ass. Finally charge through lets you target 1 person on the otherside of someone to charge.
So p. W. T. P can now declair t is the target of the charge. He runs over w and hits t with a single attack.
No confusion it is easy for overun to work anyoher way as ive said requires rules exceptions not provided. If it worked as some groups have expressed ( ie charge throug was not needeed) overrun would be tbe greatest low level tactic in thegame letting you move attack w cm then attack. It does not do this because it does not expr3ssly say so.
Anyhow remove vicious stomp and its a good setup.
I have been unable to parse Overrun and any rule that relates to it in any way.
The action cost and the description are contradictory. It's annoying.
I haven't commented on this thread before, because I'm in the same boat as MEL here.
I was asked however to comment, so I am. Sorry it's not a more insightful one.
I can say what I do in my own games is this, but it's pretty much a house rule, so take it with a grain of salt.
A) Charging while Mounted : The mount performs the Charge Maneuver. The Rider uses a Move Action to direct the Charge, and get's a standard action at the end for attacking, and is considered to have charged for purposes of feats/damage/weapon bonuses/etc.
B) Overrun allows you to continue moving after your charge attack if you have movement left over.
C) Charge Through allows you to perform an Overrun on a target between you and another valid target. If you succeed at your overrun attack on the first character, you may continue to the second and make an attack against them as well. This is treated as a special full attack action that includes directing the mount.
D) Elephant Stomp, being an Immediate Action, can be used on the overrun attack. Assuming you haven't used a swift already of course.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One very important point being overlooked, and which could possibly be the exception everyone is looking for, is the fact that Bull Rush specifically says, "You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack." Overrun leaves out the part in bold print, so, by RAW, you would still get the attack allowed by charging if you are successful with the overrun attempt on the charge target.
This really needs to be answered in the FAQ.
Also, I think that you would be able to attack if failing your cmb check while using charge through, since the overrun attempt is a free action
Hi all!
I'm new, but i'd like to make a question about the "Charge Through" feat...it states that "when making a charge, you can overrun one creature in the path of a charge as a FREE action"...let's say you are mounted and you have 3 enemy in line of your charge, and behind them there's your charge's target...could you make a charge and overrun all 3 enemies (given that, with Charge Through feat, overrun is a free action, and in the same round you can take multiple free actions), and make the final attack on your charge's target? And does the hoof damage from Trample feat apply to the 3 enemies also?
Imo you can't do this, because you can only take one overrun maneuver per round...but being a free action with this feat, it's a little bit confusing for me!! ;)
Thx for help!
I would say no, because it specifically says "one creature". If it said "one or more creatures" or even "a creature" (general rather than specifically "one"), then I would say yes. Also, there are other feats that let you overrun more than 1 creature per round, which implies that this feat does not do that.
I would really appreciate a constructive response to this issue by Paizo. I have specifically avoided these kinds of builds, simply because the rules are such a quagmire.
IMO, the entire implementation of charging (mounted and unmounted) and overrun needs to be ripped out of the book and replaced with a cleaner rule set.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We have all failed to see the obvious, and I finally realized the correct interpretation of resolving Charge+Overrun:
Resolve the charge first, THEN the overrun. Here is why:
* The target of charge is a creature
* The target of overrun is a space somewhere past a creature, not the creature itself (the overrun check is to complete the "pre-goal" of getting passed the creature, much like an acrobatics check for preventing AoOs during movement)
* Charge+Overrun is simply combining both goals into a single action (the overrun effectively becomes a free action).
P . . T . . O
If P wants to Charge+Overrun T to get to square O, the charge restrictions only apply to the line between P and T. Once you arrive at T, you finish the charge maneuver and proceed with the overrun maneuver (which means moving through T's space if successful).
IF there is a creature between P and T, you can still charge+overrun T IF you have Charge Through, because that feat gives you the exception needed for charge to bypass the restriction of having a clear path.
Your explanation makes a lot of sense !
The only problem I see with your interpretation is the following : if your charge finishes before the overrunning attempt, then you wouldn't get the +2 to overrun, which seems a bit strange since you would be able to use the momentum you gathered while charging to use the overrun.
Nonetheless, I still do think it would need an official clarification from Paizo to be able to use it fearlessly, for someone like me who plays PFS.
The problem is that table variation will probably occur, and that building a character with overrunning feats when you know the rules you are using are borderline is a risky attempt.
The only problem I see with your interpretation is the following : if your charge finishes before the overrunning attempt, then you wouldn't get the +2 to overrun, which seems a bit strange since you would be able to use the momentum you gathered while charging to use the overrun.
The charge attack itself absorbs the bonus momentum gained by charging, leaving nothing extra for the overrun. Since the section on overrun does not explicitly grant the charge bonus, this is the only interpretation that makes sense (to me).
Well, I really want to believe your interpretation is right, since my eidolon has taken all the Overrunning feats, which would mean she could charge pounce overrun and if successful then i would get an Aoo from my foe when he's knocked prone.
Nevertheless, I think most Gms won't let that fly sadly...