I am trying to help my brother build a human fighter with the ideal of making him a Lawful Neutral Hell knight that specializes in polearms. Any suggestions on how his build should look from start up to level 16?
I will give a recomendantion.
Take at least one of this feats: Dazzling assault, cornugon smash, dreadful carnage
plus intimidating prowess and/or skill focus intimidate
and take this ability from the hell knight
Fearsomeness (Ex; any order): A Hellknight who uses the Intimidate skill to cause a creature within 10 feet to become shaken can instead cause that creature to become frightened.
===
Is a pretty effective tactic in combat and give a solid skill for social interactions.
Would I be wrong when I suggested he make the fighter a pole arm master arch type since that's the only weapon he wants to use?
No. There are several archetypes that could work. Weapon master, two handed figther, phalanx soldier.
A first thought:
Human Polearm Master Fighter 10 / Hellknight Commander 10
1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge
2 Fighter Mobility
3 Fighter Combat Expertise
4 Fighter Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack via retraining 1st lvl feat
5 Fighter Combat Reflexes
6 Hellknight
7 Hellknight Cornugon Smash
8 Hellknight Disciple: Brand
9 Hellknight Intimidating Prowess
10 Hellknight
11 Hellknight Dazing Assault, Disciple: Fearsomeness
12 Hellknight
13 Hellknight Lunge
14 Hellknight Disciple: Summon Devil
15 Hellknight Dazzling Display
16 Fighter Shatter Defences
17 Fighter Furious Focus
18 Fighter Dreadful Carnage
19 Fighter Weapon Focus: Glaive
20 Fighter Weapon Specialization: Glaive
Order of the Pyre because of the favored weapon (glaive). Do a power attacking dazing lunging whirlwind attack and daze and demoralise everyone around you, as well as leaving them flat-footed. At 18th lvl, kill someone and demoralize everyone around you again.
What would you guys recommend for this starting stats? I've never played one but looking at the Hellknight it seems Charisma is going to be needed and Charisma is usually a stat dump for a fighter.
With 20pb I would go like this for a Human Hellknight:
STR 17 (+1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th lvls)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 8
Charisma has its uses but is not crucial in any way. You have Intimidating Prowess for achieving high Intimidate scores.
For level 4 you say to retrain a level 1 feat but you need Dodge as a prereq to Whirling Attack and the only thing left is Power Attack.
Grond wrote: For level 4 you say to retrain a level 1 feat but you need Dodge as a prereq to Whirling Attack and the only thing left is Power Attack. As a human you start with 3 feats at lvl 1. I posted two because the 3rd will be retrained to Whirlwind at lvl 4.
Also, seeing that you start with high Int, consider starting with the Heart of the Wilderness alternative racial trait. For your regular traits you probably want Defender of the Society and Unnatural Presence.
Level 16 Hell Knight
Buy
STR 18 (15 buy, +2 Racial, +1 at 4)
DEX 14 (13 buy, +1 at 8)
CON 14 (14 buy)
INT 13 (12 buy, +1 at 16)
WIS 14 (12 buy, +2 Racial give up Extra Skills and Extra Feat)
CHA 12 (11 buy +1 at 12)
Worship Abadar
Level 1, Fighter Weapon Master 1 (Glaive)
Weapon Focus, Power Attack
Level 2, Fighter Weapon Master 2
Intimidating Prowess
Level 3, Fighter Weapon Master 3, Weapon Training Polearms
Dazzling Display
Level 4, Fighter Weapon Master 4, +1 STR
Weapon Specialization
Level 5, Fighter Weapon Master 5, Perfect Strike
Skill Focus Intimidate
Level 6, Hellknight 1, Order of the Godclaw, Smite Chaos 1/day
Level 7, Hellknight 2, Hellknight Armor, Discern Lies
Cornugon Smash
Level 8, Hellknight 3, Discipline Pentamic Faith Domain Travel, Force of Will Compulsion, +1 Dex
Level 9 Hellknight 4, Smite Chaos 2/day
Shatter Defenses
Level 10 Hellknight 5, Hellknight Armor 2
Level 11 Hellknight 6, Discipline Fearsomeness, Force of Will Compulsion & Charm
Level 12 Weapon Master 6, +1 to CHA
Lunge
Level 13 Weapon Master 7, +2 Weapon Training Polearms
Persuasive
Level 14 Hellknight 7, Lawbringer Smite Chaos 3/day
Level 15 Hellknight 8, Hellknight Armor 3
Dreadful Carnage
Level 16 Hellknight 9, Discipline Summon Devil, Infernal Armor, Force of Will Compulsion, Charm & Phantasm
Now you've got a guy who can intimidate the crap out of anyone on the field, he can move up to 40 feet on a move action, ignore rough terrain 5x day on a charge/five-foot step, can use Dimensional Hop 80 feet per day, Summon a devil like summon monster VII, sees in all darkness, resists 30 points of fire, 10 Acid and 10 cold. On and when he intimidates he makes the creature frightened rather than shaken.
I certainy agree that the order of the Godclaw id the best because of the Pentamic Faith discipline. Travel Domain powers are generally awesome. I chosed the order of the Pyre for their favored weapon, but if you don't care about that then Godclaw is the best choice. In this case however I would suggest a Bardiche as the weapon of choice because of the increased threat range, 17-20 with the keen quality. Also I find that the dazing lunging whirlwind combo with a polearm is too good to pass up.
Do you get some kind of bonus for using the order's preferred weapon? I don't see anything that says you have to use the preferred weapon as your character's choice in weapons.
Grond wrote: Do you get some kind of bonus for using the order's preferred weapon? I don't see anything that says you have to use the preferred weapon as your character's choice in weapons. No, you neither have any bonus if you use it, nor have any penalty if you don't.
Some additional tips:
-In my build, change Weapon focus and spec. with Critical Focus and Blinding Critical if you intend to use a Baurdiche. Antagonise and Persuasive are also golden.
-In P33J's build change Skill Focus: Intimidate with Combat Reflexes. I consider it essential to every polearm wielder, AoOs are the reason you hold the pole instead of a sword in the first place. Take the Focused Study alt. racial trait and take Skill Focus: Intimidate and Perception. After these, Acrobatics and UMD are good choices. For your last 5 feats you should probably go for Critical Focus, Staggering Critical (some battlefield control as you will lack dazing assault), Stunning Critical, Greater Weapon Focus, Deadly Stroke.
In P33J's build why not go polearm master instead of weapon master? I'm not seeing the reason for it as the person in question (my brother) only wants to use his polearm weapon in combat. So going polearm master would let him choke up on the weapon to use in melee.
Grond wrote: In P33J's build why not go polearm master instead of weapon master? I'm not seeing the reason for it as the person in question (my brother) only wants to use his polearm weapon in combat. So going polearm master would let him choke up on the weapon to use in melee. Weapon Master takes weapon training faster. This is probably the reason, as the critical boosting abilities will not come into play. That being said, I would probably prefer Polearm Master for the ability to use a pole in adjenct squares too.
stay away from Dazzling Display, I have no idea why everyone recommends that, it is a wasted feat and weak. when dreadful carnage does the same thing as a free action instead of a full round action. it work well in combined Furious Focus
XMorsX has a very solid build but honestly I would not bother with Dazzling display. I would replace them with Furious Focus take dreadful carnage sooner rather then later. or even skill focus intimidate it will increase your odds to do that.
Since your that is already a reach whirlwind build, maybe trip and greater trip to get extra attacks and knock people prone.
Dazzling display is just a feat tax for shatter defense which can be good with sneak attack damage but you won't have that. It also does no good if you don't have intimidate high enough. to shaken creature. which is going to happen do to lack of cha and no skill focus. Also Shatter defense is going to take 2 rounds get off with a whirlwind build and be effective.
I am playing the same type of character right now. This not a point buy character though but should be possible in point buy. I make him via point buy and human race. He is intimidate specialize. not whirlwind build I get all my AoO from my party members or reach weapon if I have one.
human Point by 20 points
str 16
dex 13 Level 4 make 14
con 13 Level 8 make 14
int 13
wis 11
cha 14 Level 12 make 15
last 2 where ever.
Feats
level 1 Furious Focus, Power Attack
Human Skill Focus intimidate
level 2 fighter Combat weapon focus
level 3 skill focus knowledge plane (useless i know but feat tax for what's to come)
level 4 fighter Combat reflexes
level 5 Eldritch Heritage Abyssal (gain claw use to use if you get swallowed or grappled ect.)
Level 6 fighter bonus Cornugon smash
level 7 Intimidating prowess hell knight levels here
level 9 Weapon specialization (now do two more fighter levels)
level 11 Fighter Dreadful Carnage, Improved Eldritch heritage Strength of the abyss +2 str(it will go up to +6 .it end ups adding to damage and intimidate It also stacks with belt)(hell knight rest of the way until it is 10 level)
level 13 Improved Eldritch heritage again if you want (for demon resistances if you want +4 save vs poison and 10 electrical resistance) you have resistance to all elements with this character. but feel to change rest of this out could still be a good trip build or something else. (I did not bother with this one took skill focus use magic device I end up getting immunity from electricity from deck of many things. And background trait that make that a class skill for me. So I am use wands with no problems and even doing my own permancy spells from scrolls)
level 15 Persuasive
level 17 iron will
level 19 lighting reflexes
Fighter bonus 8 greater weapon focus
fighter bonus 10 deadly aim for those pesky flying dragons that are out of range. little extra damage helps.
weapon property I got is ominous (add the enhancement bonus to intimidate checks) head slot maw of the wyrm added another +4 to it. there is nothing that can't be intimidated by this build expect those immune to fear or mind effects.
I went straight fighter no archetypes for mine because I have much higher dex and picked up Sash of the war champion to increase my armor training even more and bravery. My max dex possible in hell knight armor is 9 because of this sash.
But some archetypes could go well two handed fighter for extra damage, even mobility fighter or weapon master.
disciplines I chose was
god claw (pandemic faith travel domain) the extra 10ft of movement and teleport 100ft a day is just to awesome.
Fearsomeness because when I decided to use on a killing blow with Dreadful Carnage 10ft around me will be frightened the next everything 20ft out of that will be shaken.
Vigilance for my last one I like the idea of looking through door before entering a room. none of the other discipline interested me.
For my force personality I chose Compulsion, Figment and pattern as there are more these types of spell than any other or they basically have save or suck results. Fear is taken care of by bravery.
There is a trait that lets you use INT in place of CHA for intimidate, which may interest you if you are making an intimidate build.
Improved Eldritch Heritage Abyssal is actually a good find to pick up the inherent STR bonus.
If you are gonna go fighter, you can max your DPR potential with Focus and Specialization which I like.
Shatter Defences is very useful for your team too, and you can apply it to anyone with Whirlwind. The Intimidate skill will be pretty high with the Intimidating Prowess and the pumped Str from the magic items. Also, as I understand it, spell-likes are all standard action unless noted otherwise, so summon demon is a standard action too. This makes it a very strong ability at the lvls you play, allowing you to use tactics like reach cleric: summon a devil and move in place for AoOs.
master_marshmallow wrote: There is a trait that lets you use INT in place of CHA for intimidate, which may interest you if you are making an intimidate build.
Improved Eldritch Heritage Abyssal is actually a good find to pick up the inherent STR bonus.
If you are gonna go fighter, you can max your DPR potential with Focus and Specialization which I like.
yeah it saves you over 137k in a book cost.
XmorsX
Shatter Defenses does not help your team mates at all it only helps you
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final
it is only your attacks that are consider to be flat footed. but it does give me a good idea for a fighter or barbarian/rouge combo with Cornugon smash.
The reason why I say skip on shatter defense, is your more then not going to miss being a full attacking class with high str. furious focus is going to negate the penalty to hit on your first attack with two handed weapon. So you will always hit and always do damage. flat foot really does not effect he ac of most creatures as most of there ac comes from natural armor, it does effect some but not that many. the main point of getting something flat-footed in for sneak attack damage.
Summon are 1 round action, they function just like the summon monster spells, unless other wise noted. That why I don't like them they take to long to do. that why i picked travel domain order of the god claw, I could just teleport to caster and mess them up. add in disrupted feat chain or step up following step, good caster disrupted.
Also intimidating prowess does help it is not enough against most creatures, on average you fight creatures with 3 or 4 hit dice more then your own this puts you at a negative on the base roll as the dc is 10+hit dice + the creatures wisdom mod and size mod that is the killer right there. as most creatures are going to have a decent wisdom not great but decent a +2 and most creatures are going to be larger then you so that is another -4 to your roll. So lets say your level 10 fighting a cr 12 monster cloud Giant here we go.
dc to intimidate him is going to be 10+16 hit dice +3 wis +4 size= 33 role use the build above with out +4 str -1 cha +16 skill. you need a 14 so the odds are not in your favor. add is magic item to increase str +4 and cha by 4 you will be at 50% having those few points in Cha is what drops it to a under a 50 percent chance of success
my build the better in your favor for but not by much at this level +3 str +2 cha +10 skill +6 skill focus. we need 12 add the same magic items now we need 8 so it a 60% chance of success. it really start to shine out later because of the Eldridge str bonus you end up with same str score in the long run and higher cha making intimidate. more powerful, but
XmorsX possible effects vrs possible targets hit and a single round beat me out. That where his shine really well is in the whirlwind. man add feats tripping feats to build with and Fury's Fall in-place of dazzling display and Shatter Defenses to his build. He forgot a feat at level 11 that why I have the 3rd one in there.
I might actual change out some feats to add that to my guy. with Felling Smash. sine whirlwind would be too feat heavy with trip. The guy I am running now because I did not take any of the weapon focus stuff on my guy because I did not want him to be tied down to any type of weapon. so I have few feats I just don't know what to do with.
I did some playtesting with my brother on some of these builds and what we found so far:
bardiche is the better polearm because of the increased chance to crit plus it has reach and brace. Hits for the same as glaive on normal rolls so I don't see any advantage of taking a glaive over a bardiche.
Dazzling display is not bad at all, not sure where KainPen is coming from on that one to be honest.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Dazzling Display is bad because it it takes a full round action to do. meaning you can only take a 5ft step and do it. if it was a standard action it would not be so bad. Because you could move in to a nice tactful position and preform it. There no point it doing it. you waste a full turn to maybe give all targets in 30ft a -2. and unless you are specialized in intimidate the odds are not that good, you are better off letting the wizard do fear as a spell.
your a melee class, so you always be doing damage, you want ability that are free action with your ability to do damage. Why waste a full turn to intimidate 4 or 5 targets when you can do it for free. that why it is bad. It is just not that useful.
The thing with the feat chains that let you do the same function for free action is they cost a few more feats and take a little longer to get the same effect, but the feats they cost are very useful they are useful from level 1 all the way to 20. Dazzling display lose any luster it has after you get more then one attack in a round.
Power Attack This one is a no brainier the game is almost mandatory you take it to do any amount of real damage in the game.
Furious Focus no penalty on your first power attack Super good at levels 1-6 as one attack is almost always going to hit and do great damage. still good at level 7 +
Cornugon smash, every attack becomes give you free intimidate. that one alone is superior. Signal attack, charge, Full attack, AoO all let you intimidate, haste attack. you could end up intimidating the exact same number of targets and do a little damage to every single one of them. this can also become a 15 AOE intimidate with whirlwind lunge build reach build. which is good option if you go bardiche as a weapon.
Dreadful Carnage- that is the incing on the cake. you drop someone to zero hit points. That is what you are supposed to be doing and you do the exact same effect as dazzling display.
you don't waste a single turn with these feats, there are two more feats that do the same thing, but they are performance feats.
The dazzling display is a feat tax to let rogue get full sneak attack for 2 almost rounds thru shattering defense. I say almost because you have to hit with one attack first before shattering defense kicks in. With out having to flank. That is all it does. Most combat ends in 3 to 4 rounds, Dazzling display cause you to waste a one of those rounds for something that is really not that help full.
If you look through these board you will see the game is designed for offense strategies to be the most effective. let's see do 120 points damage in round taking one two or 3 targets preventing damage to the entire party or give a -2 to most of their rolls on 4 to 5 targets. which is the better knocking out 100% chance for enemy doing damage or giving them 10% failure to do damage.
I would never use intimidate if is was not a free action. The only reason I recommend it is because you can do it as free action. It is worth doing as free action. It works well in combination of Fearsome discipline because you can do it as a free action.
Well when you put it like that....
I missed the part that SHatter defences only works on yourself. It is fine to skip it, dazzling display by itself is mediocre at best as KainPen explained. Take Furious Focus and Dreadful Carnage instead.
What we got so far is this:
Fighter (polearm master archetype)
First level feats Dodge, Power Attack, Weapon focus (bardiche)
Second level Intimidating Prowess
Third level Furious Focus
Fourth level Combat reflexes
He's now caught up with the rest of our group in levels. He's also the only up front character in the party. The rest of the party is a crossbow inquisitor, a cleric and ranged fighter.
Forgot to add at 4th lvl he took dex to bring his dex to 14 to make better use of combat reflexes.
Sounds good so far. Remember Dodge and dodge bonus add to your CMD a lot of people forget that and they stack with all other dodge bonus. Since you your party consist of no arcane caster. you and the ranger fighter are going to be doing most of the damage so you want to increase your damage out put as much as possible. I recommend getting your weapon to +5 asap then add ominous increase your intimidate which will be a free action later. That way you get the bonus to hit and damage and go through most DR.
I don't have my books but if the polearm master gets weapon training, gloves of dueling are a great item to get for another +2 hit damage and bonuses CMD for being disarmed and sundered.
maw of the wyrm, helmet gives you breath weapon 1 a day and add +4 to intimidate check.
belt of str is a must + what ever, hand band of Cha same thing + what ever this will effect your smite and intimidate.
I always fond of ring of evasion., luck stone, pale green ioun stone, dusty rose one .
I am sure the other guys also have suggestion on magic items to look out for.
Would there be anyway to start cleric and go into Hellknight? Too MAD?
yes there is actually a hell knight caster PrC for Arcane and Divine casters that add to caster level. I think it is called Hell Knight enforcer. They are slightly different from the hell knight commander in terms of powers they get, but most are very simlar and have a simlar feel to them, that would actual be a better choice then the hell knight commander.
Hell knights are all ready very mad as it is. They need cha, str, con, wis. they are any more mad then a paladin.
pandimic faith gives you domain power which require wisdom, good number of there class skills require wisdom
smite is cha bases as are rest of the class skills as is some of there powers.
you want a good con or dex for hp or ac since you are a tank class
str because your melee and the whole class powers are based around heavy armor so you need to be able to use it.
It has a lot of good skills so you kind of don't want to flake out on int to much.
If you took Skill focus Intimidate does that let you take Cornugon Smash at level five? My thinking is if you put a point into Intimidate at every level and at fourth take skill focus intimidate would that count as the six ranks of Intimidate you need as a pre req for Cornugon Smash?
Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and use the Fauchard, it's far and away the best polearm: (reach, trip, and 18-20/x2). If you really don't want to spend a feat glaive-guisarme and bardiche are both pretty good. The ogre hook too but it's kinda verisimilitude breaking for a Hellknight.
Grond wrote: If you took Skill focus Intimidate does that let you take Cornugon Smash at level five? My thinking is if you put a point into Intimidate at every level and at fourth take skill focus intimidate would that count as the six ranks of Intimidate you need as a pre req for Cornugon Smash? No, ranks are ranks. The ranks are there to put a minimum level requirement, but without forcing you to stay one class. If you need six ranks of intimidate, you've gotta put ranks into intimidate for six levels.
|
