So I'm not sure but I wanna check with others and find out whether the DM was correct or not or if it's just possibly one of those DM discretions.
This is part of a Pathfinder Game
So I'm playing a Level 3 Catfolk Rogue who has a base movement speed of 30 feet. My Inquisitor ally casted Expedious Retreat on me increasing my movement speed by 30 feet.
So I'm trying to Jump 15 feet forward ontop of a 5 foot incline as well due to jumping from stairs up over webs to avoid them having to make a 35 DC jump check in mid run, and actually NAT 20'ing it (LOL I had a +15 and was so excited when I aced that roll), but my question at this point is I moved 15 feet and jumped 15 feet making a total of a 30 foot move....now since I was increased to a 60 foot base movement the question comes here is that Jump check apart of the movement because I declared that I'm going to move 15 feet and jump the next 15 feet to avoid the web and finish my movement out 30 feet ahead (which I was trying to retrieve an item) should I have been able to finish the last 30 feet out after my jump or was it correct to make my jump cost me a standard action (since it says using a skill is a standard action) but under the Action description for Acrobatics it states as the following
"Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."
Should I have been given the remaining 30 feet of movement? Or stopped just after my jump?
The jump was a move action. You have a another move action or a standard action left for this round.
I always play where jump just counts as part of the movement, so in this case you still would have 30' of movement left.
It would be part of the move action, but not all of the move action, unless all 60' was your jump.
Now, that gets tricky with high jumps. Jumping 5' high would not be 5' of movement, but rather 20', which matches the DC and would show the level of effort to make that move.
All of the above is what I think is correct, but has always seemed like I was just piecing parts together to come up with what seemed like RAI.
Also, when your speed changed to 60, you add +12 to your jump check. It looks like you might have added that in, but I am not sure.
I totally had to go back and re-read the bonus for speed above 30, so my bonus to jump would of been +23 meaning I needed to roll a 12 or higher not a nat 20 lmao
My character was level 3 at the time of making the jump and though has now since level'd up but I thought per ruling that yeah if I didn't complete the 60 feet movement with the jump i would still have the rest of my move.
Like I said I moved up 15 feet, jumped forward 15 feet with an upwards of 5 feet vertically. So if the vertical cost me I should of had 25 feet left then.
For a jump check I wouldn't bother with vertical movement, unless it were a specific situation where there were a low ceiling or the PC was trying to reach and grab something, in which case we can do a quick calculation. I would never could vertical against max movement though.
Jumping is part of movement. Apply distance jumped against your move speed. If it runs over, then you must do the jump as part of a double move. Falling distance, does not apply. :-)
For your example, you had a base speed of 60', you moved 15' forward, then jumped 15' forward and up. Your move still had 30' to go. You standard was still available.
/cevah
Yeah thats exactly what I thought and tried to talk to the GM afterwards about it he said that it says using a skill is a standard action...Oh well it's in the past now.
But i appreciate the clarification!
I'm forced to agree. I was thinking about the rules for using acrobatics on narrow surfaces and uneven ground which is a different case than what the OP was asking.
First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round.
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Even if the GM ruled that using the Acrobatics skill required a standard action, you should still have had a move or move equivalent action left that round.
Personally I would rule it's simply part of your movement, leaving you with a Standard action that you could convert into a move or move equivalent action - players choice.
The jump counts as part of the move. As for how much of your movement it uses up I would see whether the height of the jump or distance uses more and take the higher of the two. I believe a 5 ft high jump should use 20 feet of movement, while a 15ft forward jump only uses 15. SO really you could jump 20ft forward and 5ft high and it is an equivalent check for either and would have the same movement cost. Based a 60ft movement speed, you should have 60-15-20= 25 ft of movement left by my estimation.
tried to talk to the GM afterwards about it he said that it says using a skill is a standard action...
This is patently wrong. A blanket rule that using a skill is always a standard action is completely ignoring the actual rules of the game.
Each skill says exactly what kind of action is used for the skill. Some are move actions, some are standard actions, and some require no actions at all.
Or was he just making a houserule?
In any case, ask him how Perception works if it can only be used on a standard action. If someone is talking, do you have to wait until your turn to make a Perception check to hear what they say?
No, because this is specifically called out in the rules for charging.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
Being able to jump over the obstacle doesn't change the fact that the line from you to your opponent passes through a square containing the obstacle. Technically, you can't even charge through a square containing a helpless or dying creature without using overrun.
Fortunately, in both cases, the GM is free to decide otherwise if it makes more sense for the situation.
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The jump counts as part of the move. As for how much of your movement it uses up I would see whether the height of the jump or distance uses more and take the higher of the two. I believe a 5 ft high jump should use 20 feet of movement, while a 15ft forward jump only uses 15. SO really you could jump 20ft forward and 5ft high and it is an equivalent check for either and would have the same movement cost. Based a 60ft movement speed, you should have 60-15-20= 25 ft of movement left by my estimation.
Why would you assign 20' of movement to a 5' high jump? Is this an arbitrary assignment or something from the rules?
I ask because we have to assume that as part of a forward long jump, the jumper is going to travel on an arc...
The jump counts as part of the move. As for how much of your movement it uses up I would see whether the height of the jump or distance uses more and take the higher of the two. I believe a 5 ft high jump should use 20 feet of movement, while a 15ft forward jump only uses 15. SO really you could jump 20ft forward and 5ft high and it is an equivalent check for either and would have the same movement cost. Based a 60ft movement speed, you should have 60-15-20= 25 ft of movement left by my estimation.Why would you assign 20' of movement to a 5' high jump? Is this an arbitrary assignment or something from the rules?
I ask because we have to assume that as part of a forward long jump, the jumper is going to travel on an arc...
Well, it's only inference not RAW, but the DC for a high jump is 4 per foot, while a length wise jump is 1 per foot. I made an inference that the effort required to jump high requires more movement than jumping forward at that same rate.
Its not actually stated anywhere, so i guess RAW it wouldn't necessarily but then how much movement should it take up? Should we calculate the length of the arc? I'm really not sure. It's easy to say laterally movement jump equals the amount of movement speed used, but its not really spelled out for vertical jumps.
Edit: Also, please note that with the calculation as I've done it the cost is calculated based on whether the vertical or horizontal component of the jump consumes more distance. So with a 5ft high jump I would allow up to 20ft of forward movement for free.
I think it was 3.5 that defined the jump was the highest point in the middle of the jump and that height was 1/2 of the distance.
Anything else that we are coming up with is just stuff we are coming up with.
I think it was 3.5 that defined the jump was the highest point in the middle of the jump and that height was 1/2 of the distance.
Anything else that we are coming up with is just stuff we are coming up with.
Well, that rule doesn't appear anywhere in Paizo material, as far as I am aware. Not that I'm opposed to this rule.
But, can you rephrase what you've written because as written it is confusing.
Edit: Is this
Long Jump
A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance. The DC for the jump is equal to the distance jumped (in feet).
what you're referring to?
Because then it works out effectively to what I've said. A 20ft long jump makes you jump 5ft high. And thus requires 20 ft of movement.
Yes, I guess it was 1/4 not 1/2.
You are correct. The problem lies in when do you need to clear the 5'? For instance, if you need to jump over a 5' fence and then 20' past it, you would have to start your jump at 20' before the fence to make the arc described, turning it into a 40' jump.
And that is where combining the two gets really confusing.
Do you actually have to 'clear' the 5' height like a flaming hurdle, or is it a fence that you could land on, then launch off of?
But just jumping straight up 5' is only 5' of actual movement (not cost against your movement in a turn), but I think you and I agree that it should cost more.
So it looks like we both basically agree that the DC should also be the movement cost? That would make the math easy too, as the DC would already be determined to make the jump in the first place.
So would that make the DC to the original question 40? The jump would start 20' away to make the arc that allows the PC to get 5' in the air for a long jump. If the PC started the jump 15' away, he/she would only get 3.75' into the air, right?
So by all of that, I guess I would charge 40' of movement, which is really close to what Claxon said.
@Claxon @komoda: I like it. I think I will go with the highest DC model myself... So in the example of a 20' forward jump with a vertical of 5' it will be DC 20 and cost 20' of movement. Simple enough.
Yep, thats why I like it. Its simple and straightforward.
Yes, I guess it was 1/4 not 1/2.
You are correct. The problem lies in when do you need to clear the 5'? For instance, if you need to jump over a 5' fence and then 20' past it, you would have to start your jump at 20' before the fence to make the arc described, turning it into a 40' jump.
And that is where combining the two gets really confusing.
Do you actually have to 'clear' the 5' height like a flaming hurdle, or is it a fence that you could land on, then launch off of?
But just jumping straight up 5' is only 5' of actual movement (not cost against your movement in a turn), but I think you and I agree that it should cost more.
So it looks like we both basically agree that the DC should also be the movement cost? That would make the math easy too, as the DC would already be determined to make the jump in the first place.
So would that make the DC to the original question 40? The jump would start 20' away to make the arc that allows the PC to get 5' in the air for a long jump. If the PC started the jump 15' away, he/she would only get 3.75' into the air, right?
So by all of that, I guess I would charge 40' of movement, which is really close to what Claxon said.
So, you want to jump 5 ft high, and move 20ft past the barrier? Thats a pretty tall order? Lets see here. If you were jumping 40 ft forward it would be a DC 40 and you would be jumping 10ft high at the midpoint. Theoritically, we could say at the quarter point of movement (10 ft out of 40ft) you would be 5ft high. So you could actually jump 10ft in front of the wall with a DC 40 jump check and be 5ft high at the point of the wall and continue sailing through the air for another 30ft. As a GM I would definitely allow a player to shorten their jump by using their acrobatics to "adjust" their trajectory. Not everyone has to jump along a perfect 45 degree arc.
OP said 15' forward, not 20'. :-)
In my earlier post, I used the idea of move distance by squares. Every other diagonal counts as two, with the first diagonal counting as one. That means 15' + 5' was effectively 15'. If he wanted to go up an additional 5', then it would have added 5' making a distance of 20' to set the DC.
Going by the digression shown, he needs an arc that puts him at +5' at 15'. To get +5' high, he has to jump 20' or more, but that puts the 5' high at 5' short. To get at least 5' at 15', he needs to make 30' He actually then makes 7.5' high, so can land OK. To further refine this, he can jump 25', clearing 6.25' at 12.5', causing him fall less than 1.25' within 2.5'. Something I think is easily doable. New DC: 25.
Now going on hyperbole for the parabola.... :-)
What if he jumps 20'? He was 5' high at 5' before, and at 0' at 5' after he needed it. Averaging this, he is 2.5' short when 15' comes up. That is close enough to catch oneself with a reflex save. New DC: 20 + Reflex save.
Who knew jumping was so fun?
/cevah
It's like people don't know the the word "abstraction" means. -_-
It's like people don't understand the word "abstraction". -_-
No, because this is specifically called out in the rules for charging.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.Being able to jump over the obstacle doesn't change the fact that the line from you to your opponent passes through a square containing the obstacle. Technically, you can't even charge through a square containing a helpless or dying creature without using overrun.
Fortunately, in both cases, the GM is free to decide otherwise if it makes more sense for the situation.
Wait... if jumping is part of movement, why couldn't you attempt to jump over the obstacle duing a charge? I know this was explicitly allowed in 3.5.
Sorry for the double post; that's what I get for posting via iPhone. My post didn't show up (and still doesn't).
Rereading the section, I've revised my opinion (for what it's worth) from "RAW says you can't jump during a charge, but I'd never play it that way" to "RAW has room for interpretation here". RAW doesn't care about whether the obstacle can be cleared via jumping, only whether obstacles exist that block or slow movement.
A sane GM might read that so long as the creature can clear the obstacle without slowing, then the square doesn't actually slow movement and thus doesn't block a charge. There's room for interpretation there since the words are "block" and "slow", not "hamper". I'd read it as the player could attempt the charge, but the charge would be negated if the Acrobatics check failed or if the Acrobatics check would for some reason shorten the overall distance the player could theoretically move that turn (i.e., the jump "slowed" the character). Since jump checks don't appear to affect movement rate unless the jumper fails, then it should be fine.
Loving this thread, so here's a slight variation: My oracle needed to heal an ally in a pit, so she jumped the rail and made the 10' drop, nailed her Acrobatics roll to land on her feet, and we all figured that was her entire move action.
This thread makes it sound like since she made the Acrobatics DC, she should have been able to continue moving another 20'. (10' drop + 20' horizontal).
Am I reading the above posts correctly?
(It was one of those "Cool in your head" moments -- she used her standard action to transform into a positive energy elemental, then her move action to jump down to save her friend... and because she didn't have the horizontal movement, didn't reach him and spoiled the whole "action movie" effect).
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Jumping is part of your move action. Your move action does not have to be only a move or only a jump, but can combine both. How else would you get a running start without a special ability? For every 5 feet you jump length wise adds 5 to the acrobatics DC. Every 1 foot you jump up adds 4 to the acrobatics dc. You cannot jump further than your maximum movement speed.
A character with a base movement speed of 30 is chasing a bad guy that's 45 feet away, and must clear a 3 foot high hurdle which is in front of a 10 foot long hole, which is 25 feet away, to catch the bad guy. He moves 25 feet, then makes a DC 22 acrobatics check (12 for the high jump and 10 for the long jump lengths respectively)to clear the obstacles. At this point he has moved 35 feet and is forced to double move, which he spends the rest of his movement to catch up to the bad guy.
That is one way to look at it.
Another is:
y = height
x = length
y = 1/4x (as suggested based on 3.5 rules)
Start your jump 10' from the hurdle land 10' after the hurdle, and clear the hurdle with just a DC of 20.
y = height
x = 20
y = 1/4(20)
y = 5
5 > 3
You clear the hurdle by 2' with an easier DC.
At a 5' hurdle, it would still be cleared at DC 20, but you would suggest a DC 30.
See why it matters how it is calculated?
Well, that rule doesn't appear anywhere in Paizo material, as far as I am aware. Not that I'm opposed to this rule.
But, can you rephrase what you've written because as written it is confusing.
Edit: Is this
Long Jump
A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance. The DC for the jump is equal to the distance jumped (in feet).
what you're referring to?
Because then it works out effectively to what I've said. A 20ft long jump makes you jump 5ft high. And thus requires 20 ft of movement.
Claxon was quoting the 3.5 Jump skill.
I found it in PF.
Above and Beneath the Streets
...
Use the guidelines in the Acrobatics skill (a horizontal jump's peak height is one-fourth of the horizontal distance) to determine whether a character can make a jump.
That is one way to look at it.
Another is:
y = height
x = lengthy = 1/4x (as suggested based on 3.5 rules)
Start your jump 10' from the hurdle land 10' after the hurdle, and clear the hurdle with just a DC of 20.
y = height
x = 20y = 1/4(20)
y = 5
5 > 3You clear the hurdle by 2' with an easier DC.
At a 5' hurdle, it would still be cleared at DC 20, but you would suggest a DC 30.
See why it matters how it is calculated?
I understand your math, but where did you come to the conclusion of the y=1/4x factor?
Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying I think. Because you jump 20 feet the dc for the jump is 20, and because you rolled a 20 acrobatics the height you can jump is 5. The problem with your formula is that you're not calculating both the height and length together first, but instead are basing the height and length of your jump on your acrobatics check.
While adding separate DCs may be simple, there is no support by RAW.
In other words, there are two obstacles in this example that you are clearing instead of just one. Your only two options are to roll two separate acrobatics check for the high and long jump, or do what the creators have done to simplify it and add both DCs into a single simultaneous action.
In steeple chases, horses routinely have to clear a hedge with a water hazard on the far side. It is a single hazard, not two.
Just like mostly everything else, you cannot roll a dice then declare what you do/what happens based on what you rolled. You must declare what you wish to do, then based on the difficulty of what you want to do(DC), roll to do it.
Actually, I think this is fairly common. However, it goes like this:
PC "I am going to do X, Y, then Z."GM "Make a check."
PC Succeed by a lot "While doing X, Y, and Z, I also did a back-flip."
PC Barely made it "I did it, but man it was hard."
PC Failed "Well, it was going great, until my foot slipped. I did a back-flip and landed flat on my backside!"
I do agree that you cannot roll, see what you get, and then declare what you rolled for. At our table, that roll is ignored and a new roll is required.
I can see it being argued that only the highest DC of the jump check should apply though, because jumping in itself is a singular action. But the reason there are two separate DC tables for jumping is because one could also argue that "Sure, he jumped forwards 30 feet with a DC 30 check, but did he also jump 6 feet in air all the way there, or just 1 foot?"
Later on you'll get those monks who roll a 40 on their acrobatics, and add 20 to it with their ki, jump 60 feet long and 15 feet high, moving in a straight line "through" all the enemy squares without provoking AoO or needing to roll acrobatics against their CMDs simply because he's out of their attack range at that point. And we don't want that.
Actually, we DO want that. Have you seen the movies? We are talking great B cinema!
How is that any worse than using their greater mobility to walk around the enemy? If they get too close, they need a check to avoid AoO. With the long jump over the enemy, they need a check to even try the maneuver, and if their roll is too low, they land short and don't get high enough and so provoke AoOs.
/cevah
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Jumping is part of your move action. Your move action does not have to be only a move or only a jump, but can combine both. How else would you get a running start without a special ability? For every 5 feet you jump length wise adds 5 to the acrobatics DC. Every 1 foot you jump up adds 4 to the acrobatics dc. You cannot jump further than your maximum movement speed.
A character with a base movement speed of 30 is chasing a bad guy that's 45 feet away, and must clear a 3 foot high hurdle which is in front of a 10 foot long hole, which is 25 feet away, to catch the bad guy. He moves 25 feet, then makes a DC 22 acrobatics check (12 for the high jump and 10 for the long jump lengths respectively)to clear the obstacles. At this point he has moved 35 feet and is forced to double move, which he spends the rest of his movement to catch up to the bad guy.
That is one way to look at it.
Another is:
y = height
x = lengthy = 1/4x (as suggested based on 3.5 rules)
Start your jump 10' from the hurdle land 10' after the hurdle, and clear the hurdle with just a DC of 20.
y = height
x = 20y = 1/4(20)
y = 5
5 > 3You clear the hurdle by 2' with an easier DC.
At a 5' hurdle, it would still be cleared at DC 20, but you would suggest a DC 30.
See why it matters how it is calculated?
I understand your math, but where did you come to the conclusion of the y=1/4x factor?
Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying I think. Because you jump 20 feet the dc for the jump is 20, and because you rolled a 20 acrobatics the height you can jump is 5. The problem with your formula is that you're not calculating both the height and length together first, but instead are basing the height and length of your jump on your acrobatics check.
In other words, there are two obstacles in this example that you are clearing instead of just one. Your only two options are to...
I don't agree that you would add the two DCs together or pick the higher DC. I feel that you have to devise a DC that incorporates both obstacles. By looking at the jump as a whole, and using the formula above, a DC of 20 is proven to clear both obstacles in one jump.
The character would not look at this as a number, but rather the effort that he sees required to perform the stunt.
Adding the two DCs together is fast, but just not warranted. Picking the highest one makes it to low and ignores the difficultly added by the other obstacle. In your example, it would only be DC 12. But a 12 represents jumping onto your kitchen counter, not jumping over your kitchen floor and onto your counter.
So I suggest coming up with a DC that represents a jump that clears both obstacles. I am going to play around with some drawings this weekend and see if I can come up with a pretty easy method to help determine what a DC should be. I will post links to them once completed.
Sort of makes Janni Style useless, if you cannot jump whilst charging.
True. More credence to the idea that you can do it, so long as it doesn't slow you down.