Ive always found the progression of characters in this (and 3.5) to typically be rediculously fast. The first few levels of a character normally spend one level per adventure, leveling almost assured each time you "head back to town".
I find this places far too much emphasis on leveling and takes a great deal away from 'playing'.
Has anyone slowed progression to a great degree in their game? Im talking about a 1st level character spending 3-5 or more adventures before leveling, or the equivalent of several weeks to months. Reaching 8th level or thereabouts in a game of this pace would take years, dozens of adventures each year.
Do you see a problem with this?
Being below level 3 sucks. You can die from one crit. You have maybe 5 spells a day, tops. You have one feat, unless you are human or a class that gives bonus.
You don't see people spending weeks at 1-2 because it's no fun.
Afterwards, when your martials don't fall over in two hits from mooks and your casters can cast a flashy stone call once in a while you could spend longer.
My last campaign had us at level 3 for 7 sessions. I think thats a good number. Get used to new feats, spells, features. Enjoy them for a time. Then hit level 4 and do it all pber again.
You get pretty comfortable with your stats and can rattle em off without looking. That's pretty cool too!
I tend to prefer fast leveling. Why? Because I dont play much, and if I leveled slowly, i'd never be able to try anything. It's not helped by the fact that I've been moving around a lot recently, and that makes playing with a regular group difficult. To have this work, you would at least 2 things:
1) Time/accesibility: if you stay in the same place for years at a time, you can afford to be a bit slower.
2) The type if DM: if all the GMint. If "playing the game" only means slaying some monsters, the only reward I can see is becoming better at slaying monsters. Which means leveling (My GMs up until now have put limited emphasis on roleplay, unfortunately).
I honestly get the impression that if it took so months to level, I would never get to high levels. I haven't been playing for long though.
Note: for the time issue, roll20 can help a bit. It's not the same as playing with people, but it's as good as you can get when you're moving around.
It all depends on what stories you want to tell and/or what your players want for their characters.
Firstly, lower-level adventures involve lower-level plots. Goblins, bandits, skeletons, zombies, etc. A level 1 party isn't going to be able to do anything particularly heroic: saving some villages from their small-town issues is the best they can muster, for the most part. If these are the kinds of stories you want to tell, then go for it, just remember that unless you provide your players with some sort of McGuffin, demon-slaying, dragon-battling, giant-hewing times will be long in the future.
Secondly, your players may have certain concepts for the characters that won't come into full effect until much later in the character's life. Barbarians don't have rage powers, casters are limited to first-level spells, rangers don't have an animal companion, paladins are just holy fighters, etc.
Thanks for the feed back. I was refering to character years in my post, not actual gaming years but I get it. My player base is pretty small, basically two family members at the moment (son and daughter in law) with very little chance of building on that so the game will be pretty much what I make of it.. they having no experience outside me!
I appreciate the help though. I can see where the lower level stuff could become kind of discouraging. Perhaps slowing after a couple levels is the way to go.
To me it depends on what you mean by adventures. My group certainly doesn't level every time the party does something but they would certainly expect to level up and the end of story.
So if the adventure is "stop the goblin raid," then 2 or 3 (or more) such adventures is fine.
If the adventure is "find and defeat whoever is organizing these goblin raids," then I would expect to be at least level two after it was all said and done.
Oh, I thought you meant physical time. As for actual "character years", while I've yet to see it done, I'm working on a campaign idea that works on that idea. It's basically in a "school " setting (the characters are children) and the players only actually play out the "important moments". Bascially, 1-2 "days" of play for 1-2 months of living. In the meantime, they get downtime that gives them advantages based on what they do (study, socialize, explore, etc.). I think it's doable (I hope it's doable).
As for lower vs higher level, I,ve heard f quite a few people who prefer to start at higher level, so that they have a diversity of abilities. I'd like to try that eventually.
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The Kingmaker AP seems perfectly suited to this type of gameplay, we just started the last book and are at around the 10 year mark in game, the party has moved from an eager, excitable lot all about glory and gold who were willing to throw themselves into any danger to thirty somethings who value knowledge, prepare plans before attacks, work like a finely oiled machine and whose lust for life has been tempered by loss and the responsibilities they bear. Its been fantastic to watch.
One of my favorite games was a 2e/3e Planescape game. We played every week for probably 6-8 hours a session, and leveled up like once every other month or less. Granted, we were about level 4-5 when we started, and the campaign lasted several years(IRL), and we finished around level 15ish. In game time probably a few years passed at most.
Perhaps slowing after a couple levels is the way to go.
I just wanted to advice you on doing so. First level play is way to random and unbalanced. Martial can oneshot nearly all enemies and while some spells like sleep and Color spray can down entire encounters the casters don't have enough slots to haven much fun. Also spells with a duration of rounds/lvl, especially summons are really useless. The characters also die insanely fast and are almost certainely gone on a crit.
If you prefer to stay at low level plots(chasing bandits etc.) I'd slow down as early as lvl 3. You can still low Fantasy, but without it getting depressing. Martials and your enemies can now take a few hits. Non-spontaneus Casters already got lvl2 spells(If one is a sorcerer maybe consider slowing down at 4, so the poor sap isn't stuck with 1lvl spells forever). Fighting styles start to work since the all characters have now multiple feats.
If you want more options for the players like Flight and the ability to take on some bigger monster slow down at 5 or 6. This is what we normally do. The game is most balanced around here and nearly all characterbuild should start working well now. The characters are now at the level of most peak human heroes in literature and television. Like most really tough Action heroes, but not yet at the lvl of comic book peak humans.
A long time ago I used to prefer that it would take four adventures (not sessions) to gain a level. It always seemed that characters level far too quickly for my tastes. These days with everyone having comittments and the like, it is easier to use the fast progression so that the players feel they are getting something out of playing.
In the homebrew stuff I tend to run, I usually give them fairly quick levels (to me this is usually a few quests or a major plotline) up to around 5 then progressively slow it down from there. We don't tend to use the exp system in those campaigns and the levels tend to be more plot based or when it is convenient (usually at the end of a session to give them time to level for the next).
We recently did start Wrath of the Righteous and both the group and myself were very surprised at just how fast you level up even on the normal experience track. They tend to level up at least once every two sessions or so (and for the first 4 sessions they were gaining a level a session).
I like 3-4 gaming sessions per level. I feel it's a good pace for me and my group.
I've had campaigns that started at each and every level throughout my 3.0, 3.5 and PF careers, from level 0 (commoners) to level 25 (epic).
Most of it is fine but my personal opinion is that starting around level 3-4 is preferable. Level 1 play is mostly interesting for vanilla fighters but other classes are quite simply boring to play. Spellcasters are left twiddling their thumbs throughout the session, rogues don't have access to feats that they need to be effective, non-armored melee builds go down by being breathing upon, specialized fighting styles are unavailable etc...
Level 3-4 is ideal because the PCs have just gained the resources and freedom of choice to personalize their characters. Additionally, it's a bit of a annoyance to me to write backstories for level 1 characters, since they haven't done anything yet in their lives. It simply doesn't make sense to have certain backgrounds if you have 0 xp. At level 3-4 the character could have experienced enough for an interesting background and even have the build to reflect it (feats, skills, multiclassing etc...)
The speed from then on doesn't matter as much although you don't want to slow it down too much. The thing is that the game is build around the simultaneous progression of xp and loot. If you're slowing it down a lot and have the PCs go on much more adventures and quests than usual, you'll either get unbalances because the PCs have way too much wealth for their level or you have to be really miserly with handing out loot. Going the poverty route can be really discouraging to PCs, especially if the GM is keeping a tight rein on the xp as well.
My very first campaign has a GM that was very, very miserly. We were incredibly lucky to find a masterwork sword at level 7! Aside from the balance problems (he threw monsters with DR/magic at us), it's just kinda boring after a while.
GM: you've defeated the ogres and there is a chest in the corner of the room.
PCs: lemme guess, the ogres were carrying clubs and hide armor and nothing else and the chest has some silver pieces and mundane gear?
GM: ..... how did you know that?
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I prefer a curve for advancement.
At level 1 to 5, I use the fast progression, which speeds up leveling. You learn fastest when you don't know much.
At levels 6 to 15, I use the medium progression, which is an average showing that you know things, but are still learning.
From level 16 and on, I use slow progression, as you're an expert in your field and learning something new takes you more and more time.
What is really needed is more roleplaying time between adventures. Too many of these adventures are one bad thing right after the last. There is no time between adventures to deal with other things.
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Just yesterday, with another player of my group, we were considering PCs going 1-st level for 2 full AP books, then 2-nd level for the next 2 and finally 3-rd level for the end.
Since this was obviously unbalanced, he proposed that PCs should play the 1st book of an AP at level 1, then the first book from another AP at level 2, and so on.
It was funny envisioning our characters being called to deal with goblins in Burnt Offerings (RotRL), then taking a ship to Mwangi in Smugglers' Shiv (Serpent's Skull) before being once again called back in Sandpoint to deal with more Goblins in the Brinewall Legacy (Jade Regent), only to find themselves on another ship in the Wormwood Mutiny (Skulls and Shackles).
Call us if you ever have an infestation of Goblins ;-)
What is really needed is more roleplaying time between adventures. Too many of these adventures are one bad thing right after the last. There is no time between adventures to deal with other things.
Yeah, my group went 1st to 14th in a few weeks in the Council of Thieves AP. The wizard didn't even have time to transfer the spell he found into his spellbook.
Yeah, my group went 1st to 14th in a few weeks in the Council of Thieves AP. The wizard didn't even have time to transfer the spell he found into his spellbook.
This was a big problem in our game (which has been running for so long that we started with 3.5 and switched over to Pathfinder mid-stream). I'm playing the Wizard and we were in a city state during a war/siege. Reeling from one crisis to the next, maybe a month past and we shot from 6th level to 14th.
The GM had to throw out a bunch of his own rules (mainly the one about the amount of time spent to actually 'level up' b/c we never would have given the circumstances) and the only spells I had were the ones I gained by leveling (with one or two exceptions).
Once things sort of semi-stabilized and the party wanted to start running all over creation doing stuff. My character basically told them they could do whatever they wanted, but without him because I had a couple months of spell scribing in the queue (I had made allies with several major wizards, so spell access was less of a problem than time to scribe).
If I ever run another game myself, leveling will be based on story arcs, not XP. The first few arcs will be quick while the players grow into their 'potential', but it will slow down a bit after that. I always thought it was strange how a 22 year old 1st level Wizard could be 20th level before hitting his 30th birthday.
Hey Rgrove, ever try an Epic 6 (E6) campaign?
You can used the Slow Experience progression chart from 1-6, then have fun from there. It works GREAT in Eberron where all the npc tend to be lower level (but somehow spam our rings like no one's business).
For me though, as a DM I start all campaigns at lv 1. Usually the PCs level in approximately 1 session per character level. Like if your level 1, 1 session; if your level 6, 6 sessions. With ~45 sessions a year (1/week but with random cancels) that brings them to level 10 in 1 RL yr.
I don't know about you, but we usually play 1 week night from about 5:30 or 6:00 pm to about 1:30 or 2:00am. So these are NOT short sessions...
hope this helps :)
If I ever run another game myself, leveling will be based on story arcs, not XP. The first few arcs will be quick while the players grow into their 'potential', but it will slow down a bit after that.Excellent idea! I've done this MANY times myself, and chalk it up to XP from Role Playing through situations.
I always thought it was strange how a 22 year old 1st level Wizard could be 20th level before hitting his 30th birthday.The ridiculous level at such young ages always bothered me until I started getting into Anime... then you find an 8yr old who make whole armies of well trained worries look like a bunch of idiots... I guess it's whatever keeps the people at the table happy...
Personally I prefer to be AT LEAST middle aged as a human/ half-elf / halfling / etc before I get level 15-16ish. Feels more real...
Rgrove, here's an article for you: Why I Love The Slow Advancement Track.
Thanks people, great feedback. Ive yet to read the posted article but right now Im considering moving to the freeform leveling mechanic and dispensing with Exp altogether. Where pace is concerned, you cant go wrong. The only drawback I see is that my inexperienced (RL inexperienced)players may feel they are missing something by not seeing those EXP points racking up on the character sheet. Ill admit, the feel of progression is a cool element. I suppose I could just award a small, arbitrary amount of EXP each session, and perhaps a few bonuses here and there during play, to feed this mechanic... the end result is the same.
I suppose I could just award a small, arbitrary amount of EXP each session, and perhaps a few bonuses here and there during play, to feed this mechanic... the end result is the same.
In my experience (RL experience ;P ), PCs don't like when there's no system they can rely on. If you go free form, just have some sort of guideline for yourself. If you seem too whimsical, they might get annoyed. That's why I use the 1 session / character level as a base. It's not exact (because then people just count sessions and start caring a little less about actual story progress), but it's something we all agree can be used as a base for the level progress. If there is an AMAZINGLY productive session, *Ding*. If you have a few time wasting sessions, no level.
Again, I really hope this helps. Pacing is an age old battle we all have to stumble through till we find what both we and our PCs enjoy.
GOOD LUCK!!! :)
The ridiculous level at such young ages always bothered me until I started getting into Anime... then you find an 8yr old who make whole armies of well trained worries look like a bunch of idiots... I guess it's whatever keeps the people at the table happy...
Typically those characters walk onto the scene with obscene powers in the first place. The other ones are usually 'the chosen one' or some-such. It's usually the ones that are RPG satires that actually employ the journey of zero-to-hero.
One solution would be to require a significant period of training in order to level up. No XP involved, just training, which costs money. So you adventure to make money to level up (i.e. get better).
The upside of this idea would be that most ordinary folk don't have the free time or money to gain levels, so they remain at low levels for their entire lives. Similarly, very rich but busy persons don't level up either, because they have no free time. But you can explain that 10th level Wizard pretty easy - came from a rich family with lots of free time to study as a Wizard.
I'm playing a Slow Track campaign, and it's worked very well for character development beyond the numbers. You actually get time to appreciate what the PC is like before the numbers all change. There's less numbercrunching, which IME leads to more RP. YMMV. And it all seems much more real.
Disadvantages include not having build plans see daylight for a very long time. The fighter wants to dip barbarian and cleric at some points, but those points are probably 2016 and 2018. The rogue might take his first level of Arcane Trickster when my kids graduate.
If you're doing a Slow (or campaign-event-drive but slow) progression campaign, I strongly advocate SKR's Alternative Advancement System.
If you're doing a Slow (or campaign-event-drive but slow) progression campaign, I strongly advocate SKR's Alternative Advancement System.
Cool, I've never heard of that. Only problem is that as written, you'd still be leveling quite quickly. I guess, you'd just change the parameters to something more relevant to your campaign. In game progress or passage of time. Maybe just set it at a solid 1 step per session, no matter how long he session is... I don't know though... But definitely simpler!!
The old adage about the problem with level one play is that the house cat is more powerful than the wizard.
Woah that steps thing sounds awesome, I'm totally doing that for the next group I'm GMing. It always bugged me how long it sometimes took to get anywhere in delves sometimes (side quests that lead to more tangents).
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My homebrew games typically play once a month for a full day. We level up every 3-4 sessions, or about 3 levels per year of real time play. We've done one full level 1-15 cycle, retired those PCs, and the new PCs are level 3.
Personally, I dislike starting above level 1, and I don't like to level rapidly. Most of my PFS characters are on the SLOW track. I find the most interesting levels to play are about 3-7. I like to GM medium-high level (7-15) adventures. Anything level 12+ we consider 'whimsy play', because the powers and abilities get so silly-strong. Also, beyond about 10th level the martial characters really fall behind & it becomes a game about primary casters.
My homebrew games typically play once a month for a full day. We level up every 3-4 sessions, or about 3 levels per year of real time play. We've done one full level 1-15 cycle, retired those PCs, and the new PCs are level 3.
Personally, I dislike starting above level 1, and I don't like to level rapidly. Most of my PFS characters are on the SLOW track. I find the most interesting levels to play are about 3-7. I like to GM medium-high level (7-15) adventures. Anything level 12+ we consider 'whimsy play', because the powers and abilities get so silly-strong. Also, beyond about 10th level the martial characters really fall behind & it becomes a game about primary casters.
I'm sure you've heard it before... but Epic 6 might be fore you (or Epic 8 if your feeling risque).
You can definitely space a campaign out over a longer period, both IC and OOC regardless of level. My regularly playing PF group, which has been going since the Pathfinder Alpha Release, only recently hit 15th level. That time has covered several years IC.
We've found that more roleplay, plots that do not resolve quickly, and time between adventures allows things to advance at a more reasonable pace than simply rushing from adventure to adventure. We also adopted the slow advancement pace for XP.
Hope that helps.
If I were running once a week, I'd more than likely level slowly. As it is I have busy middle-aged players with families and we play 1/month; we level about every 2-3 sessions. Frankly between spouses and kids, work, school, other engagements, etc. my players can't usually remember what's going on in the game other than gross details like the name of the dungeon.
So with my players/schedule being what it is I feel bad using the pace that I DO use. Spending 3 mo's of real life time being able to cast 2 1st level spells feels cruel.
But as I said above; if I was gaming 1/week for 4-5 hours at a time and clearing, say, 6 encounters a session, the xp awards on a medium track would dictate they'd level ever 2 sessions. That seems extremely fast to me. However that same level of xp read on the "Slow" track means leveling every 5 sessions; that seems more in line with my own personal tastes.
In the end it'd really come down to my players. If they don't like the slow track, I'll speed it up. Their fun is the metric by which I measure my own success as a GM.
The idea of clearing four or five encounters per session seems unbelievably efficient to me. Our sessions last between four and five hours and on a really good night we'll have two encounters. Most nights we get one and occasionally we do none. With the slow advancement on top of that, we're running around two months to a level. (Mid May to mid November should see the entire party hit fourth.)
The idea of clearing four or five encounters per session seems unbelievably efficient to me. Our sessions last between four and five hours and on a really good night we'll have two encounters. Most nights we get one and occasionally we do none. With the slow advancement on top of that, we're running around two months to a level. (Mid May to mid November should see the entire party hit fourth.)
Depends of course on how much time each session takes, much game mastery the GM and the players have and how big the party is.
In the group I currently play with, only me and the GM have a large amount of game mastery, the party consists of 4 PCs, 1 cohort and 2 animal companions and we play about 4 hours per session. If we're lucky, we get about two encounters done.
In my previous groups, all the players were very well versed in the rules and their characters (so no looking up spells or game mechanics and much less backpedaling when they misunderstood the rules), those parties didn't have both a ranger and a druid (so usually 4-5 PCs with 1 other NPC at most) and we played at least 6-8 hours per session. These sessions went quickly enough to occasionally clear an entire dungeon in one go!
Thanks people, great feedback. Ive yet to read the posted article but right now Im considering moving to the freeform leveling mechanic and dispensing with Exp altogether. Where pace is concerned, you cant go wrong. The only drawback I see is that my inexperienced (RL inexperienced)players may feel they are missing something by not seeing those EXP points racking up on the character sheet. Ill admit, the feel of progression is a cool element. I suppose I could just award a small, arbitrary amount of EXP each session, and perhaps a few bonuses here and there during play, to feed this mechanic... the end result is the same.
I have dispensed with xp from my game also and just level when its appropriate in the story. This is especially easier because I use published material.
That said I use a version of hero points in order to still be able to both reward and encourage my players. So at the end of the session, or when they do something cool, I usually give one or two of them to give that feeling of reward and keep them motivated.