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Will, help me out here with your 3rd point. You have brought up a complaint about holding pregen credit, but I don't know that I've caught your proposed fix for it. Making 3rd level pregens would just mean having to hold the credit for a slightly shorter length of time. To borrow and modify your language above, that would still "simply suck," which seems like no perceived reward for me as a developer (or us as a campaign) in exchange for significant work from the art staff, the editors, and me.
What is your proposal for updating how pregenerated character credit works?
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What is your proposal for updating how pregenerated character credit works?
Hmmmm... Have it apply as if it were your next chronicle, providing the same amount of gold as your most recent chronicle as if you had played the same Scenario twice?
For example, you have pregen credit for "Dinner of the Giant dragons" where your 7-11 characters are the menu.
You have most recently played "Petting zoo of absolom" a level 1-5.
You apply the sheet for Dinner, but change the gold to be that of petting zoo. If, after playing petting zoo, your character is level 1-2 you take low tier Petting zoo gold, if 3 you get out of subtier Petting zoo gold, and if level 4,5 you get high tier petting zoo gold.
Its moderately farmable for a little extra cash but nothing game breaking.
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One problem I am seeing with this proposed system is that some boons on chronicles should not be in the hands of level 2 characters.
Lets take for example a boon which gives you a 5000gp item for free. If this boon were applied to a level 3 character they suddenly have a 5000gp item.
Are there any boons that good?
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Lets take for example a boon which gives you a 5000gp item for free. If this boon were applied to a level 3 character they suddenly have a 5000gp item.
The worst I have seen is a boon worth around 3,000 gp. But it is only that exact one. I can't think of a second that would be that problematic.
Here is an alternate proposal: you are allowed to apply pregen chronicle sheets as soon as the character you assigned it to reaches the LOWEST level for the chronicle sheet. Gold and boons are adjusted to match that tier.
So for example, you play a Tier 3-7 with a level 7 pregen, and decide to assign the credit to a level 2 character. When the character reaches level 3, he gets the sheet, applied with the level 3 gold and the level 3 boons instead of having to wait until 7th to apply it.
This would solve the "out of tier boons" problem, would let you apply your pregen chronicles earlier, AND it consolidates the rules for pregen credit and GM credit to the exact same rule! The only difference between the two is that players are only allowed to apply the sheet to a character of lower level than the pregen played.
Simpler, clean, and easy.
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Lets take for example a boon which gives you a 5000gp item for free. If this boon were applied to a level 3 character they suddenly have a 5000gp item.The worst I have seen is a boon worth around 3,000 gp. But it is only that exact one. I can't think of a second that would be that problematic.
Here is an alternate proposal: you are allowed to apply pregen chronicle sheets as soon as the character you assigned it to reaches the LOWEST level for the chronicle sheet. Gold and boons are adjusted to match that tier.
So for example, you play a Tier 3-7 with a level 7 pregen, and decide to assign the credit to a level 2 character. When the character reaches level 3, he gets the sheet, applied with the level 3 gold and the level 3 boons instead of having to wait until 7th to apply it.
This would solve the "out of tier boons" problem, would let you apply your pregen chronicles earlier, AND it consolidates the rules for pregen credit and GM credit to the exact same rule! The only difference between the two is that players are only allowed to apply the sheet to a character of lower level than the pregen played.
Simpler, clean, and easy.
I like this one...and I was in fact told wrongly that this is how it worked when I first started PFS (used a pre-gen for my first game).
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Lets take for example a boon which gives you a 5000gp item for free. If this boon were applied to a level 3 character they suddenly have a 5000gp item.The worst I have seen is a boon worth around 3,000 gp. But it is only that exact one. I can't think of a second that would be that problematic.
Here is an alternate proposal: you are allowed to apply pregen chronicle sheets as soon as the character you assigned it to reaches the LOWEST level for the chronicle sheet. Gold and boons are adjusted to match that tier.
So for example, you play a Tier 3-7 with a level 7 pregen, and decide to assign the credit to a level 2 character. When the character reaches level 3, he gets the sheet, applied with the level 3 gold and the level 3 boons instead of having to wait until 7th to apply it.
This would solve the "out of tier boons" problem, would let you apply your pregen chronicles earlier, AND it consolidates the rules for pregen credit and GM credit to the exact same rule! The only difference between the two is that players are only allowed to apply the sheet to a character of lower level than the pregen played.
Simpler, clean, and easy.
The potential problem with this is again minimizing risk to your character by playing level 7 pregen in a 3-4 subtier.
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Developer
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The potential problem with this is again minimizing risk to your character by playing level 7 pregen in a 3-4 subtier.
Except one should be playing the pregenerated character that corresponds to the subtier actually being played, so in a Subtier 3–4 adventure, a player should be using the level 4 pregen.
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Are there any boons that good?One problem I am seeing with this proposed system is that some boons on chronicles should not be in the hands of level 2 characters.
Lets take for example a boon which gives you a 5000gp item for free. If this boon were applied to a level 3 character they suddenly have a 5000gp item.
Yup - It comes from a higher level scenario that gives below average gold, so it evens out, as you can't save your choice on the item.
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I think my first character more or less skipped 7th level because of the "spinning wheels" you are talking about.
How about being able to apply the exp immediately, but not the gold or boons until you hit the level of the pregen played? Luckily I have enough characters this doesn't really affect me any more, but I do remember being pissed playing a pregen 2 or 3 times in a row because I needed one more experience on my first character to be able to play him in 7-11.
EDIT: Scratch that idea. After reading it, it is horrible. The characters that do this will be pulling more high level gold when they do hit under this system.
i have never played PFS
but i have looked at the pregens, and they aren't just a little flawed, they are so gimped that they cannot survive their Publisher's Own APs. they do nothing to reflect the way pathfinder is played and nothing to reflect 3.5. the pregens are a pretty face to look at and nothing more
i could build a sickly bard, whom outperforms Lem in the skill department, despite being drastically inferior in melee combat. i'll even use the worthless half-elf, 3rd weakest core race.
lousy melee combatant? okies? dies in a single round? excellent for year of the Diplomat thought.
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Simpler, clean, and easy.The only problem I see with it is you can still get stuck wheel spinning... that is you have a character waiting for multiple chronicles worth of credit that can't advance at all because a group has gone past them.
Right, but it could be a lot less levels than before. We don't have to solve the problem in one fell swoop. We can take baby steps to get there.
Incremental is still a type of improvement. I think both ways have merit, I think my proposal is a bit simpler (keeps the same rules as GM credit) and more fool-proof (for boons that may SEEM OP for low level players to have. Some would argue the Feast of Sigils boon may be as well. But then again, you can already apply that to a level 1 character).
For that matter, you can already apply the free 3,000 gp item to a new level 1 character.
i have never played PFS
but i have looked at the pregens, and they aren't just a little flawed, they are so gimped that they cannot survive their Publisher's Own APs. they do nothing to reflect the way pathfinder is played and nothing to reflect 3.5. the pregens are a pretty face to look at and nothing more
i could build a sickly bard, whom outperforms Lem in the skill department, despite being drastically inferior in melee combat. i'll even use the worthless half-elf, 3rd weakest core race.
lousy melee combatant? okies? dies in a single round? excellent for year of the Diplomat thought.
I played In Shadow's Wrath with Lem and someone else played Seelah, both at level 4. Seelah crushed that adventure. And while Lem is not much of a fighter, he had a significant contribution. Forty minutes of Heroism is nothing to sneeze at.
While I don't know the intentions behind these pre-gens, the philosophy behind a pre-gen should be that it represent an average build if not slightly below average. By doing so, the game developers can use those characters to test the difficulty of the mission. The pre-gens provide a way for the developers to gain some confidence that the average PFS player will be able to complete the mission.
I'll also add that playing pregens will probably improve your overall gaming as you'll have to learn how to win without the brute force of massive modifiers.
if it weren't for massive modifiers, i wouldn't be hitting the broad side of a barn
it's why i can't play savage worlds for long
Savage worlds, has next to no static bonuses
if i played a gunslinger, i'd be in perpetual misfire
there is a reason i feel the need to increase static numbers so high
because if i aren't optimizing, my bad luck negates any chance i have of contributing.
Well, I have no idea of there is some Tachyon field which follows you around and skews your luck, but I'll assume you are like the rest of us.
It is precisely the lack of massive modifiers that will force you to employ tactics that grant you the modifiers and improve your overall odds.
Right now, I'm Gming a game where nobody is trying to help each other flank, nobody is concentrating their fire power on the same target, nobody is helping anyone else (except the person playing Kyra). They are all playing pre-gens. Slowly, they are realizing that they lack the brute force to win the encounter and they are starting to coordinate their efforts. For the first time in six rounds of combat someone finally suggested they concentrate fire.
When I ran this with my PC, we crushed the combat. Nobody had to work together. It'd be interesting to see the difference in attitude/development of a group of players who started PFS with pre-gens for the entire 1st level.
i do have such a field. it's not contagious, but it is irksome. i can't always rely on tactics or flanking buddies
the policy with Weekly William's group is BYOB, or Bring Your Own Buffs. the reason why, is because with few exceptions, the players are very competitive in the number of kills they make.
either i build a pseudomartial whom can buff themselves to massive bonuses, build a character that can inflict guaranteed or near guaranteed damage in a low of scenarios, or build a buffer and healer, whom can drastically enhance everyone else, and get my bonus damage through everybody elses attack rolls. or i optimize a more skill oriented role on the side, i'm usually either the skill monkey, a buffer or both. but Seth tends to dominate the diplomacy portion of the game, making my face attempts worthless because i haven't had public speaking lessons.
I played In Shadow's Wrath with Lem and someone else played Seelah, both at level 4. Seelah crushed that adventure. And while Lem is not much of a fighter, he had a significant contribution. Forty minutes of Heroism is nothing to sneeze at.
Actually, looking at the NPC codex Seelah and Lem aren't that well built imo. Seelah for instance has extra lay on hands but no free hand, and Lem has an okay spell list but not much going beyond that. Seelah also has vital strike, which is... Vital strike. Its possible you might have done well because of what's in wrath's shadow. That's not to say they're good or awful, but just a quick look. The only iconic I've seen that I really think is way off is Harsk.
I'll also add that playing pregens will probably improve your overall gaming as you'll have to learn how to win without the brute force of massive modifiers.
Also, I don't think that's how that works.
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Sheesh, yet another circular argument about pregens. :sigh:
People, outside a few mechanical/rules errors, the pregens ARE JUST FINE! Could they be tweaked? Sure. And we all have a different idea of what the "right" tweaking would be. And the variations would increase exponentially as you move from the 1st to 4th and 7th level versions.
Chris explained the origins of the pregens very well and I do not expect Paizo is going to make significant changes to their iconic, yes ICONIC, characters. Harsk has a crossbow instead of a composite longbow. Valeros is a two-weapon fighter instead of using a greatsword or pole-arm. Sajan doesn't have maximized AC. Merisiel uses daggers instead of a bow. Deal with it!
The intent of the 1st level pregen is to allow a new player the opportunity to sit down immediately and play with only a few minutes of explanation of the character sheet. And let's face it, the majority of the time, most characters at first level are not much different. All can die from a single hit or a single failed save. Essentially they are brittle, and are barely able to function in their role. Generally speaking, the difference between the pregens and an optimized PC is marginal at best.
Level 4/7 pregens are a stop-gap to help a player fill a slot. They are not intended to be used regularly. In my opinion, if you are playing a pregen more than 2-3 times per year, either you are mismanaging your character roster, or your organizer is not accommodating the player base (or a combination of both). As an organizer, I consider it a fail if one of my players is forced to play a pregen. The best way to avoid having to "suffer" through the experience of an un-optimized pregen is don't play one. Stick to playing your own PCs. And if you are seating new players at mid/high-tier tables where they have to use a higher level pregen...stop it!
Personally, I have played pregens quite a few times. Usually it is because I have an unexpected slot off from Gm'ing or organizing and didn't think to bring my PC binder. And in those cases, I try to do something fun with the pregen and not depend on their stat block for all my enjoyment. I routinely play Kyra as Paula Deen, minus the racism ;-). She's not the best healer around, but is usually requested.
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i don't touch pregens
for home games, i will help newbies with optimized pregens, not quite minmaxed to the hilt, but they will do good at their job. most of them are fairly straightforward for their role, and tailored to the newbies desires and concept.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Sheesh, yet another circular argument about pregens. :sigh:
People, outside a few mechanical/rules errors, the pregens ARE JUST FINE! Could they be tweaked? Sure. And we all have a different idea of what the "right" tweaking would be. And the variations would increase exponentially as you move from the 1st to 4th and 7th level versions.Chris explained the origins of the pregens very well and I do not expect Paizo is going to make significant changes to their iconic, yes ICONIC, characters. Harsk has a crossbow instead of a composite longbow. Valeros is a two-weapon fighter instead of using a greatsword or pole-arm. Sajan doesn't have maximized AC. Merisiel uses daggers instead of a bow. Deal with it!
The intent of the 1st level pregen is to allow a new player the opportunity to sit down immediately and play with only a few minutes of explanation of the character sheet. And let's face it, the majority of the time, most characters at first level are not much different. All can die from a single hit or a single failed save. Essentially they are brittle, and are barely able to function in their role. Generally speaking, the difference between the pregens and an optimized PC is marginal at best.
Level 4/7 pregens are a stop-gap to help a player fill a slot. They are not intended to be used regularly. In my opinion, if you are playing a pregen more than 2-3 times per year, either you are mismanaging your character roster, or your organizer is not accommodating the player base (or a combination of both). As an organizer, I consider it a fail if one of my players is forced to play a pregen. The best way to avoid having to "suffer" through the experience of an un-optimized pregen is don't play one. Stick to playing your own PCs. And if you are seating new players at mid/high-tier tables where they have to use a higher level pregen...stop it!
Personally, I have played pregens quite a few times. Usually it is because I have an unexpected slot off from Gm'ing or organizing and didn't think to bring my...
That may be true for local game days, but high-level pregens show up all the time at Cons. I was at CharCon this last weekend, and I had a level 7 pregen at every table but two (ironically, those two were low-level and didn't have any pregens). New players may not know how tiers work when they sign up, or they may show up too late to get a spot in a low-level game, or they just came to play with their friend, etc.
It's no fun for someone to sit down with a level 7 Harsk, and then find out he can't hurt any of the enemies because they all have DR, and Harsk does piss-poor damage and has no cold iron or silver bolts. It's no fun for someone to sit down at [REDACTED] with a level 7 Reiko with 38 hp, and then get killed outright in the first round of the first encounter because the GM rolled above-average damage on a trample attack.
If the purpose of the level 1 pregens is to teach people the basics of the game, then the level 4/7 pregens should teach the basics of higher-level play. That includes getting past invisibility, DR, deeper darkness, etc. And it doesn't violate the theme/looks/feel of the iconics to give them cold iron backup weapons or an oil of daylight. The problem isn't really one of numbers; the problem is that the pregens are woefully unprepared for the hazards that show up at higher levels, and so train new players to be similarly unprepared when they reach that level.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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[What about the pregens who are not from the crb? I don't think this complaint really holds water, but I would be fine with crb + apg only
Fair enough. Perhaps I should revise my statement to "Core rulebook pregens should be CRB only." TBH I haven't seen the non-CRB pregens at tables much, except for the gunslinger for some reason. She always ends up using her sword more than her gun, which is an indicator of something "off" right there.
Now I have a crazy idea I want to see someone try - I wonder if it's possible to successfully "campaign" one of the pregens. Basically, start with a first level pregen and keep playing it, building towards the 4th level and then the 7th level version. You wouldn't take anything the higher level version doesn't have. I'm curious as to whether it could be pulled off. I bet it could.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Now I have a crazy idea I want to see someone try - I wonder if it's possible to successfully "campaign" one of the pregens. Basically, start with a first level pregen and keep playing it, building towards the 4th level and then the 7th level version. You wouldn't take anything the higher level version doesn't have. I'm curious as to whether it could be pulled off. I bet it could.
Someone locally started with 1st-level Ezren, re-named him Fred and kept playing. I think he may have hit 12th by now, but I don't know if he matched the pregen at 4th or 7th.
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Now I have a crazy idea I want to see someone try - I wonder if it's possible to successfully "campaign" one of the pregens. Basically, start with a first level pregen and keep playing it, building towards the 4th level and then the 7th level version. You wouldn't take anything the higher level version doesn't have. I'm curious as to whether it could be pulled off. I bet it could.Someone locally started with 1st-level Ezren, re-named him Fred and kept playing. I think he may have hit 12th by now, but I don't know if he matched the pregen at 4th or 7th.
Reminds me of a hilarious story of a 4th level Ezren and a Bull Rush...