Reincarnation and the Familiar bond

[Alleran]

In a recent session, an interesting situation came up (not me, but one of my players). His improved tumor familiar (small elemental; he's an alchemist/wizard multi) was killed, but since we have a druid it promptly had a Reincarnate spell cast on it... which has led to a slight problem, in that it has reincarnated, based on the list, as a half-elf.

Except, of course, that a half-elf does not technically qualify for being a familiar that I'm aware of. I ruled that yes, Reincarnate and other resurrection-based spells can work on things from the Improved Familiar list, but does it remain a familiar? Or would the bond be "broken" and thus it would be separated?

Now, I'm not opposed to letting it remain as a half-elf familiar ("A wiz-erm, druid did it!"), but can anybody see any particular problems or similar that could arise? Or interesting plot hooks I could work in surrounding his familiar? Is there precedent for something like this occurring? The player also has Leadership, and has voiced to me the possibility of allowing him to swap out his current cohort for his new half-elf familiar (so it would be a cohort and still benefit from the familiar bonuses, but he'd no longer have his current cohort).

As a reference, this player is largely not an optimiser, so I don't have much fear that it'll see any abuse if I do allow it. Although opinions on any potential abuses I might need to curb are also welcome.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

An elemental, being a non-native outsider, is not able to be reincarnated any more than it would be able to be raised.

[VRMH]

Interesting! An interesting situation indeed...

What does the player intend to be his PC's attitude towards the Half-Elf? Technically it's "flesh of his flesh", so the former tumour could be seen as a son or daughter.

Another option is to have the (former) familiar try to crawl back into the Alchemist's body, get stuck there and become a Parasitic Twin of sorts.

[williamoak]

I think this is one case where it cant stay as a familiar. It becomes it's own person I would say. There is nothing as per raw, but I wouldnt give everything a familiar normaly gets. Mybe look into the witchguard archetype? But yeah, now that it can take PC levels, allowing to also get familiar advancement might be either a bit much or too little (since you can no longer hide it in your bag).

[Cevah]

There is a Tumor Familiar, and an Improved Familiar, but I don't see any Improved Tumor Familiar. I will assume you meant Improved Familiar.

As mentioned, an elemental is not a valid target for the spell, but lets say the spell is hand-waved to work. There is no reason to use the standard table.

Reincarnate said wrote:

For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the table below. For non-humanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.

So, create a table of creatures suitable for inclusion and let the player roll. Such a table could be the Improved Familiar list with invalid choices re-rolled.

SRD Improved Familiar:

Familiar Alignment Arcane Spellcaster Level
Arbiter (Inevitable) Lawful neutral 7th
Augur (Kyton) Lawful evil 7th
Brownie Neutral 7th
Cacodaemon (Daemon) Neutral evil 7th
Carbuncle Neutral 5th
Cassisian (Angel) Neutral good 7th
Celestial Hawk1 Neutral good 3rd
Ceru Any 7th
Clockwork Familiar Any 7th
Coral Capuchin Within one step of Neutral 3rd
Cythnigot (Qlippoth) Chaotic evil 7th
Dire Rat Neutral 3rd
Doru (Div) Neutral evil 7th
Dweomercat Cub Chaotic Neutral 7th
Elemental, Small (any type) Neutral 5th
Entropic Monkey Chaotic neutral 3rd
Faerie Dragon Within one step of Chaotic Good 7th
Fiendish Viper1 Neutral evil 3rd
Harbinger (Archon) Lawful good 7th
Homunculus2 Any 7th
Imp Lawful evil 7th
Lyrakie (Azata) Chaotic good 7th
Mephit (any type) Neutral 7th
Nosoi (Psychopomp) Neutral 7th
Nuglub Gremlin Chaotic evil 7th
Paracletus (Aeon) Neutral 7th
Pseudodragon Neutral good 7th
Quasit Chaotic evil 7th
Raktavarna (Rakshasa) Lawful evil 7th
Ratling Chaotic evil 7th
Resolute Owl Lawful neutral 3rd
Severed Head Any 3rd
Shikigami (Kami) Lawful neutral 7th
Silvanshee (Agathion) Neutral good 7th
Skvader Neutral 3rd
Spirit Oni Lawful evil 7th
Sprite Chaotic neutral 5th
Stirge Neutral 5th
Tidepool Dragon Within one step of Chaotic Neutral 7th
Tripurasura (Asura) Lawful evil 7th
Wolpertinger Neutral 5th
Voidworm (Protean) Chaotic neutral 7th
Zoog Chaotic neutral 5th

1 Or other celestial, entropic, fiendish, or resolute animal from the standard familiar list.
2 The master must first create the homunculus.

Note: This chart has been updated according to the Ultimate Magic Appendix & Bestiary 3.

/cevah

[Alleran]

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

An elemental, being a non-native outsider, is not able to be reincarnated any more than it would be able to be raised.

Clarification: since this particular elemental familiar is technically part of the character's body and a familiar, I hand-waved that it's considered a non-extraplanar native outsider. I disliked the idea that the familiar can be banished given that it's come from a sentient tumour on the character's body, and saves on dismissal, banishment and similar spells.

Sorry - I should have mentioned that to begin with.

Quote:

What does the player intend to be his PC's attitude towards the Half-Elf? Technically it's "flesh of his flesh", so the former tumour could be seen as a son or daughter.

It is "a bit weird" (his words), but beyond that I don't think he's quite worked out what to do yet, and he's waiting on me to figure out how the familiar bond could be affected. So sorting through possibilities. It was the druid player's idea to try reincarnating it originally.

Quote:

There is a Tumor Familiar, and an Improved Familiar, but I don't see any Improved Tumor Familiar. I will assume you meant Improved Familiar.

Correct. Tumor Familiar with the Improved Familiar feat for the upgraded list. The player liked the idea of having living fire as part of his body/soul/whatever.

[Cevah]

Alleran wrote:

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

An elemental, being a non-native outsider, is not able to be reincarnated any more than it would be able to be raised.

Clarification: since this particular elemental familiar is technically part of the character's body and a familiar, I hand-waved that it's considered a non-extraplanar native outsider. I disliked the idea that the familiar can be banished given that it's come from a sentient tumour on the character's body, and saves on dismissal, banishment and similar spells.

Improved Familiar replaces the familiar. Technically, the new familiar replaces the Tumor Familiar. As you are GM Fiat changing this, and the player likes it, I see no problem.

Alleran wrote:

Quote:

What does the player intend to be his PC's attitude towards the Half-Elf? Technically it's "flesh of his flesh", so the former tumour could be seen as a son or daughter.

It is "a bit weird" (his words), but beyond that I don't think he's quite worked out what to do yet, and he's waiting on me to figure out how the familiar bond could be affected. So sorting through possibilities. It was the druid player's idea to try reincarnating it originally.

I would say that the bond is re-established as normal.

Alleran wrote:

Quote:

There is a Tumor Familiar, and an Improved Familiar, but I don't see any Improved Tumor Familiar. I will assume you meant Improved Familiar.

Correct. Tumor Familiar with the Improved Familiar feat for the upgraded list. The player liked the idea of having living fire as part of his body/soul/whatever.

This is where it gets weird. :-)

I would have the interaction be that whatever it is replaced with is STILL capable of merging with his flesh as the previous one was. If Air, it could be breathed in to merge and out to separate. If Earth, it might be like scales that fall into a pile and animate. Water could be sweat. Creatures would be as before the Imp F. feat.

Still think you should roll on a created/alternate table.

/cevah

[Alleran]

Cevah wrote:

I would say that the bond is re-established as normal.

Would you think the former-elemental-half-elf should now be capable of gaining levels, or would it effectively remain a pure familiar (i.e. in terms of mechanics, only the "meat-suit" changes and everything else stays the same) with regards to HD and suchlike, including the HD-treatment that the Familiar rules incorporate?

Quote:

Still think you should roll on a created/alternate table.

Well, the roll is already done and made. I'm hesitant about walking it back now. I do like the ideas of how merging would work for particular elemental forms, though, and may well use them in the future.

[Cevah]

Alleran wrote:

Cevah wrote:

I would say that the bond is re-established as normal.

Would you think the former-elemental-half-elf should now be capable of gaining levels, or would it effectively remain a pure familiar (i.e. in terms of mechanics, only the "meat-suit" changes and everything else stays the same) with regards to HD and suchlike, including the HD-treatment that the Familiar rules incorporate?

I think the new creature should either remain a familiar, in a new meat package, or should graduate to a free willed creature suitable for the Leadership feat. Perhaps with a bonus to the leadership score relative to this creature.

If graduating, then for the standard replacement cost, the alchemist can get a new familiar as well. Perhaps even at a reduced cost.

Alleran wrote:

Quote:

Still think you should roll on a created/alternate table.

Well, the roll is already done and made. I'm hesitant about walking it back now. I do like the ideas of how merging would work for particular elemental forms, though, and may well use them in the future.

Hey, outsiders come in all shapes and sizes. Maybe it is an elf shaped elemental or other planar creature. As I recall, the Tumor Familiar looked "like" a regular creature, but was not actually one.

As to giving you ideas for the future, I get ideas from the forums all the time. Glad to give one back for a change.

/cevah