The Eagle (or celestial variant) seems to be considered a top choice for most casters that use the summon monster I spell. Or even summon monster II for 1d3 of those animals.
I am unsure how to properly play that creature. After re-reading the rules, here is some scenarios that can highlight how to properly handle the creature.
Caster starts casting summon monster I. Opponents get to roll on a spellcraft to identify the spell.
1 round later, just before the caster goes again in initiative, assuming nothing broke his concentration, the spell goes off.
1)Where can the creatures appear ? I assume mid-air to be a fair "surface", or rather "medium that can support" the creature.
1.b)Can it be summoned in a foe's square ? Probaby not. So the summoned eagle appears anywhere at close range to the spellcaster (25' +5' /2CL), ready to act.
2)It most probably charges (dive) on the intended target. No need for handle-animal check since it can be presumed to know friends from foes ? Baring tactical considerations it can't comprehend, it thus charges at the nearest, say goblin.
2.b)The eagle has 0 reach, as such it must enter the enemy square to attack. So diving onto the goblin's square triggers an AoO, assuming said goblin is armed and not flat footed. Is there 2 AoOs ? one for leaving the 5' reach of the goblin's dogslicer, and another for entering the goblin's square? Seems to me it's not the same source, one being movement, the other being entering enemy square, so possibly 2 AoOs. I ask because entering an enemy's square, even with a 5' step (from a normal humanoid) would still provoke. IF the eagle survives the AoOs (or avoids them) it can now do a single attack on the goblin?
2.c)If the eagle was summoned 5' from said goblin. Can it 5' step inside the goblin's square ? That would lead to an AoO for entering the enemy square even if it's a 5' step ? For further considerations regarding that see question 4).
3)Before the eagle initiative comes up again, the goblin will act. Can it attack the eagle that is within it's space with a regular dogslicer or must it 5' step outside the square ?
3.b) if it doesn't want to bother with the eagle, can it move it's full speed and do a standard action elsewhere without incurring an AoO ? bottom line : do the eagle threaten its own square?
3.c) Assume the goblin has a reach weapon (horsechopper). Is it possible for the summon to appear at 5', close in, full attack, and never trigger an AoO since the goblin only threatens at 10' ?
4) the eagle is up again. Lets say the goblin didn't move, and still share the square. Can the eagle full attack for 3 attacks at this point? Must it do a fly check to hover in place ? What is that DC, 10 or 15 ? Doing that fly check can be made with the full attack ? Because if it's a move action to do the fly check our poor eagle will never full attack...
4.b) Similar to the above, but now the goblin actually moved 5', out of the square. Can a flying eagle do a "5' air step" to close in the goblin's square ? Does it incur an AoO for entering the square, despite the 5' step ? Does that need a fly check ? This is 2.c) redux.
4.c) The goblin actually moved 15 feet away from the eagle to attack another hero. Can the eagle follow that movement and attack once ? It's less than half it's movement (fly speed), so it needs to roll for a fly check ? what’s the DC ?
4.d) The monster in question is no longer a goblin but something medium with a bite attack, a reach weapon, and combat reflexes. It moved 15' like in 4.c) Now the eagle triggers for leaving the reach square at 10', triggers again for entering the monster's square (bite attack threatens) , all this before 4.c) considerations.
I know summon monster I is a low level spell, but if ruled correctly, the eagle is really not that good. It will most probably die every time before it gets to attack because of AoOs. And will probably never full attack, while it's most favorable stat-block entry is the 3 attacks.
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Greetings, fellow traveller.
Let's try to answer your questions - dunno how much of help I might be...
1)
It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.RAW would mean the bird appears on the ground when summoned, because that's the surface it would support it and honestly, I don't see a problem with that as it is stated that
A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action.
So I'd asume it could even take 5' steps while ascending/resuming flight to avoid AoOs and eventually gain a +1 to attack for attacking from a position above its opponent.
1b) No, since it
cannot appear inside another creature or object
2) Totally feasible to gain another +2 for a charge.
2b) The eagle is a small animal, thus has a reach of 5 ft..
2c) Since it has fly listed as one of its speeds: yes. The "problem" here is that combat is usually imagined, explained and described with bipedal humanoids moving on a (more or less) level plane, aka 2D in mind.
3, 3b, 3c) Moot due to 2b--or at least needs to be reconsidered.
4) No sharing squares, full attack possible if adjacent to goblin or able to 5' foot step/fly to get within reach. For hovering we only have the description form the Skills section, a DC 15 is given there for the hover manouver; action: none.
4b) Yes, see 2c).
4c) The Skill section lists a DC 10 for this kind of manouver, action: none. After the movement 1 attack is possible as per the normal combat rules.
4d) You can only trigger one AoO from movement or any other action which would trigger an AoO for that matter. Combat Reflexes would only come into play if you first move towards the enemy triggering an AoO and then would try to cast a spell within its reach.
Hope that answers some of your questions.
Ruyan.
Air is a medium that can support an eagle.
Read the Magic Chapter, Spell Descriptions, School section. It has a bit more info about Conjuration school and the Summoning Sub-school. It says:
"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."
You are correct, it can appear anywhere within range, subject to the above quote.
There is only one AoO for the eagle's movement - the goblin can take it when the eagle leaves its square or when it enters the goblin's square - either way, that's the same action, one AoO.
As far as I know, the Jury is still out on 5'step provoking or not provoking when you move into an enemy's space. My personal ruling is that you may not take a 5' step into terrain that is "hampered". The CRB says "Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement". I consider an enemy who doesn't want you in his square to definitely qualify as an "obstacle". Ergo, no 5'step into enemy squares. I am not sure that this is RAW (enemies are not usually considered obstacles) so maybe it's just a house rule, but it works for me.
CRB again, Combat, Big and Little Creatures in Combat: "You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally."
CRB again, Combat, Attacks of Opportunity: "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack" This makes it pretty clear that the eagle does threaten its own square, so if it is sharing a square with an enemy then yes, when that enemy leaves the shared square it will provoke unless it is a 5'step.
Yes, if the goblin has a reach weapon, it is possible for the eagle to appear inside of 10' so the goblin cannot attack the eagle, even with an AoO, without moving first.
Yes, the eagle needs to hover (DC 15 in normal winds) if it wants to full attack. No, this does not require a move. CRB, Skills, Fly: "A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation." So the hover check is part of the full attack action.
For 4c, flying is automatic for anything with a flight speed and the ability to fly - just like running is automatic for anything with a land speed - no checks are needed, even if it flies up and makes an attack (just like the goblin doesn't need to make a run check to run up and hit an enemy).
Finally, one move never provokes more than one AoO. CRB (again), Combat, Attacks of Opportunity: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
RAW would mean the bird appears on the ground when summoned, because that's the surface it would support it and honestly, I don't see a problem with that as it is stated that
I disagree, somewhat. By extension, if you summon a shark, it must appear on the bottom of the ocean and then swim up, because water is not a surface that can support it. Clearly not the intent of the spell. Water CAN support a shark and air CAN support an eagle.
True, the word "surface" is used, but if we read that literally then there is no way to summon fish if you're swimming at sea unless you're within a few feet of the ocean floor, and there is no way to summon anything if you're flying up in the air unless you're within a few feet of the ground.
So maybe ignoring the word "surface" is RAI instead of RAW, but I think we can very loosely define "surface" as including any medium the creature is capable of moving through, and you only cannot summon a non-flying creature into open space.
There have been tons of debates on this and so far, I know of no official ruling. Everyone seems to play by my loose definition of "surface" in order to allow summoning of fish and birds in water and air, but it does seem as if the RAW literally forbids this.
2b) The eagle is a small animal, thus has a reach of 5 ft..
The PRD/SRD seems to be wrong. It is missing the "Space/Reach: 2.5 feet/0 feet" entry that is found in the Bestiary. I don't see any errata to correct the Bestiary, so I assume the printed version must be correct, ergo, the eagle has 0' reach and must enter a square to attack.
Thanks a lot guys.
It seems I was mislead into thinking the eagle was smaller than "small", or that it had reach 0. Maybe my Bestiary (1ED) is too old? can't verify it's the case or just muddy memory. That clears up some of the questions.
As for the other ones, you guys provided clear rulings on the subject.
Related :
1) The eagle COULD be summoned above the target and thus gain +1 due to height advantage. That's like automatic +1 to its attack on anything that is earth bound.
2) Baring range limitation, first round should always be either : summon at charge distance to get 1 attack at +2 (+3 with height advantage), or adjacent for full attack (again at +1 for height advantage). Do you guys enforce a fly check during that first round to hover, or just on subsequent rounds if eagle remains in melee ?
3) If enemy has a reach weapon and step back 5' to attack the eagle on its turn, when the eagle is up in initiative, the 5' fly-step is counted like a 5' step, and do not provoke? Since it's a 5' step only (far from half the fly speed), it's essentially a hover skill check, same as if it didn't move?
3.b) moving up to an enemy, if less than half the mvt speed of the eagle is required, a DC 10 is needed. Otherwise the eagle can't remain adjacent to it's target and must keep going. Do you roll the skill check as it moves, so if it fails it can't attack. Or do you roll after the attack, and thus only provokes an AoO for leaving the threatened square + is forced to abandon the position. This is easier than a hover at DC 15 (which according to 3) includes 5' steps).
2b) The eagle is a small animal, thus has a reach of 5 ft..The PRD/SRD seems to be wrong. It is missing the "Space/Reach: 2.5 feet/0 feet" entry that is found in the Bestiary. I don't see any errata to correct the Bestiary, so I assume the printed version must be correct, ergo, the eagle has 0' reach and must enter a square to attack.
Glad to see I am not totally mad. Just checked the prd/pfsrd and saw the small/5' reach. I assumed there was an errata on my old Bestiary.
That is bizarre. Are there other Small or larger animals with zero reach? As far as I know, it's illegal to enter a (conscious, unparalyzed, etc.) goblin's square if you're a Small creature. It seems like the Bestiary entry couldn't decide whether the creature was Small or Tiny, or that the writer forgot which size kicked in the "zero reach" mechanic.
Stealth errata, according to the last post of this thread.
Hmmm....never notice the space and reach of an eagle were non-standard. I don't see how that makes much sense. It is a Small creature with the space and reach of a Tiny creature?
It is a conflict. Small with tiny reach. But that is exactly what real eagles are - their body isn't much bigger than cat, smaller than even an average dog, and their beak is quite short and their talons are not much longer. The only thing the eagle has that seem to be larger than the rest of it are its wings which are really just used for locomotion and not for attacking.
Or another way of looking at it, strap a 7' long stick to the back of a cat. The cat still has a reach of 0' and has to enter your space to attack - the eagle's wings are essentially the same thing, 7' of wing that have no bearing on its combat capability.
Nevertheless, small with tiny reach is not covered by the rules. I've always played it as if it were tiny, but then, I only have first printing Bestiaries at my table and didn't realize until today that later printings match the PRD despite no update in the official Errata document.
I guess if there are two versions of the eagle, depending on which edition of the Bestiary you're using, go with the stats that you actually have, or make a house rule to use stats you don't have. If you have both, or if you don't but just want to take everyone else's word for it, go with the latest edition (no listed reach so it should work like all other small creatures).
In which case, RuyanVe's description of small creatures not entering spaces is more applicable than my previous post.
Does anybody in this thread have the second or later printing of Bestiary so that we can confirm that this was, in fact, errata'd?
But it isn't just the eagle's reach, it is also it's space. 2.5x 2.5 is not the normal space for a small creature either.
Plenty of Large creatures have 5' reach (Large long) and plenty more have 10' reach (Large tall), but they all have 10' space.
I can't think of another Small creature having the space of a Tiny creature.
So, I guess my question would be, if it only takes up Tiny space, and it has Tiny reach, why is it Small?
As a comparison, the Great Horned Owl and Vulture (both Bestiary 3) are also Small, but they don't have a non-standard space or reach listed.
And I disagree about the real life eagle, depending on specific species. Many eagles are BIG birds, much bigger than a cat in body size.
Thanks a lot guys.
It seems I was mislead into thinking the eagle was smaller than "small", or that it had reach 0. Maybe my Bestiary (1ED) is too old? can't verify it's the case or just muddy memory. That clears up some of the questions.
As for the other ones, you guys provided clear rulings on the subject.
Related :
1) The eagle COULD be summoned above the target and thus gain +1 due to height advantage. That's like automatic +1 to its attack on anything that is earth bound.
2) Baring range limitation, first round should always be either : summon at charge distance to get 1 attack at +2 (+3 with height advantage), or adjacent for full attack (again at +1 for height advantage). Do you guys enforce a fly check during that first round to hover, or just on subsequent rounds if eagle remains in melee ?
3) If enemy has a reach weapon and step back 5' to attack the eagle on its turn, when the eagle is up in initiative, the 5' fly-step is counted like a 5' step, and do not provoke? Since it's a 5' step only (far from half the fly speed), it's essentially a hover skill check, same as if it didn't move?
3.b) moving up to an enemy, if less than half the mvt speed of the eagle is required, a DC 10 is needed. Otherwise the eagle can't remain adjacent to it's target and must keep going. Do you roll the skill check as it moves, so if it fails it can't attack. Or do you roll after the attack, and thus only provokes an AoO for leaving the threatened square + is forced to abandon the position. This is easier than a hover at DC 15 (which according to 3) includes 5' steps).
Bump, as the thread derailed into the question regarding the size of the eagle. Assume it's small and standard 5' reach for the sake of those 3.5 questions.
This eagle entry in the PRD has no reach/space indicated meaning it is the standard for small characters.
*Doh*. Beaten to it.
It's been that way for a couple of months, this question came up in the advice guide to summon monsters awhile back and someone noticed it then (hence the guide updating Eagles back to clearly best choice unless aquatic).
OK, got pretty much all the insight i was looking for. So now onto the matter of corner cases, just for fun :
The eagle is adjacent to a medium creature without reach, in the square right above it. On it's turn, it full attacks with +1 for height advantage.
1) The eagle stands hovering in that square, succeeding at DC 15 fly check to hover. The enemy wants to get the frak out. It can't use the withdraw action in any direction to avoid AoO, since the diagonal squares under the eagle are still threatened. So even if the first square left (under the eagle) does not provoke, the second one (any diagonal) will.
2) The eagle, after completing the full attack, ascend 5' to be out of reach. Is that possible ? ascending at 45 degrees is supposed to use twice the amount of mvt, and doing a true vertical mvt requires a DC 20 fly check. So i guess, no, it's impossible to use the 5' fly-step in this manner since it would require at least 10' of mvt, and a successful fly check.
3) The eagle "stands" 5' above the medium target, so 1 vertical square between them. If said target wants to strike at the eagle, it must do a jump check. "Straight cube creatures" would mean a medium creature must make a DC 20 jump check - 5' jump to close that vertical gap (part of it's mvt action) to try to attack the eagle once. Table
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/acrobatics#table-jumping-and-falling-high
seems to imply a medium creature can already reach 8' from the ground, so a DC 8 jump check would be enough to reach the total 10', and strike at the creature in the cube above. If the creature is small, it's rather a DC 24 jump.
Regardless of the actual DC for this to work, the creature incurs an AoO from the eagle since it goes in, then out, a threatened square on the way up, then down.
1. Correct.
2. Correct.
3. Awkward. This is up to the GM. The NBA (National Basketball Association) puts the rim 10' above the floor. Some athletic humans can jump that high and touch the rim with bare hands, even well above that rim, so far above the rim that they can dunk a basketball (the ball is higher than the rim and their hands are on top of the ball). Some very tall humans can reach that rim without jumping, though that's rare.
Your eagle is, presumably, only a foot or two above that height, in its square. Adding a 3-4 foot long weapon would allow them to easily strike the eagle, even without jumping. Fairly short humans would need more, of course.
So now the GM needs to arbitrate how high a person must jump to strike into the square the eagle is in. So many variables. Height of the jumper, length of his arm, length of his weapon, height of the eagle (top of square, bottom of square, somewhere in between).
So the simplest game mechanic would be to make him jump 5 feet. But that's silly, a 6' tall human might jump 5' and now his head is IN the eagle's square, maybe even head-butting the eagle. Adding arm length and sword length, this seems ridiculous, but might be closest to RAW.
Or, another way to look at it by RAW is that it is impossible. If you take a move action to jump, you jump up and then come down, all within that move action. It doesn't matter if you make your standard attack before or after the jump, you're on the ground either way, unable to reach the hovering eagle. Maybe, with Spring Attack, you might make it within the RAW, but without it, it would be impossible to attack that eagle without reach. Also ridiculous, but welcome to turn-based and action-based combat.
So we're well within GM houserule territory here.
If the GM allows jumping and attacking, then maybe the jump provokes, but not the upward movement (going into a threatened square NEVER provokes), only the downward return after the strike. There is even debate on this - since "falling" is not an "action" and the AoO rules say that "actions" provoke, some people say that falling never provokes. This is backed up by certain maneuvers that involuntarily move enemies and almost always say that involuntary movement doesn't provoke.
Then again, the jump was not involuntary and it was an action, so it can be said that the jumper deliberately jumped into and out of the threatened space and therefore this action provokes.
So this requires a second GM ruling.
So yeah, this bit is fairly awkward - check with your GM.
Yeah, figured 3) would case some headache. Any DM worth it's salt wouldn't deny a PC a chance to strike a hovering flyer "just out" of reach. jump DC might vary from one to the other, AoO from the flyer or not, but denying the possibility of an attack based on the "you don't have spring attack feat" is just mean.
Somehow combat seemed much more fluid and imaginative when we were running Ad&d. Called shots (old school) and lack of tactical grid based rules/abilities made for much more memorial combat.
I blame the rules.
Thanks guys
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I disagree, somewhat. By extension, if you summon a shark, it must appear on the bottom of the ocean and then swim up, because water is not a surface that can support it. Clearly not the intent of the spell. Water CAN support a shark and air CAN support an eagle.
True, the word "surface" is used, but if we read that literally then there is no way to summon fish if you're swimming at sea unless you're within a few feet of the ocean floor, and there is no way to summon anything if you're flying up in the air unless you're within a few feet of the ground.
Those two situations aren't entirely equivalent though. The shark can remain floating in the water with no effort, but the eagle has to actively be hovering to remain in the air.
I'm not sure that's true.
You put a bullet in a shark's head and it will sink to the ocean floor to have its corpse picked apart by crabs. So it must be using some effort to remain floating in the water. Sure, less effort than an eagle uses to fly, but still, it cannot be said that the water is "a surface that can support a shark" any more than air is "a surface that can support an eagle".
I am inclined to let aquatic adventurers summon aquatic creatures in the middle of the water and I am inclined to let airborne adventurers summon flying creatures in the middle of the air - which also means I'm inclined to let land-bound adventurers summon aquatic or flying creatures into water and air (respectively) as long as they are in range of that medium.
By strictest RAW definitions, none of that seems legal, but I'm going more for RAI here.
Those two situations aren't entirely equivalent though. The shark can remain floating in the water with no effort, but the eagle has to actively be hovering to remain in the air.I disagree, somewhat. By extension, if you summon a shark, it must appear on the bottom of the ocean and then swim up, because water is not a surface that can support it. Clearly not the intent of the spell. Water CAN support a shark and air CAN support an eagle.
True, the word "surface" is used, but if we read that literally then there is no way to summon fish if you're swimming at sea unless you're within a few feet of the ocean floor, and there is no way to summon anything if you're flying up in the air unless you're within a few feet of the ground.
You can drown a shark by holding it still--it can't breath because no water is moving across it's gills. One could argue that a shark requires as much effort to float as a bird does to fly.