The raw spell list: Druids
The druid's basic spell list is a hybrid between the wizard and the cleric. Summon ally as a spontaneous spell is very versatile, and the druid get quite a few of the better Save or Suck spells that the cleric does not. A well built druid can be almost as good at battlefield control as a wizard while still being able to cover a lot of the same bases that a cleric can.
Depending on the domains you choose: Clerics
There are a few key domains that have an amazing spell list for specific purposes. For example, travel domain will give you fly, teleport, and greater teleport. If there are a few key spells that you want, there is a good chance that a clerics domains will give those too you. Going into a PrC will stop your domain abilities from advancing, but your domain spells are part of your casting abilities, and will continue to advance.
Ignoring all other class features (spontaneous casting, wildshape, domains, animal companion, skills, weapons, armor), I'd choose cleric. It gets the staples I want (dispel magic @ 3rd level), the summon monster line, and raise dead). Druid has some nice stuff (entangle, neutralize poison @ 3rd, wall of fire) but I'm more comfortable having my go-to spells.
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This is one of those questions that people wish was simple X or Y, but it's just not.
BF control? Druid. Healing? Cleric.
Level 20 [SL9]? Cleric. Level 10 [SL5]? Druid.
Undead? Cleric. Out in nature? Druid.
Solo/small party? Druid. Normal/larger party? Cleric.
... and none of those are absolutes, you can expect 20-25% of the time circumstance can make those flip, as whatever part of reality you need to change by a spell to fit the situation is better served by the other classes list due to some extra factor.
... and that's BEFORE
Battle cleric vs Caster cleric
WS Druid vs Caster druid
Archtypes
Splat book spells
Etc, etc, etc.
In the end they're both top tier (probably both at THE top tier, at most .5 down), which means they're both versatile in what they do, are survivable, and powerful, plus they even have options in what they don't spec in [ie a caster cleric is still 'okay' in a fight, a wild shape druid is still 'okay' at casting].
Too many variables exist for a simple answer, and they have/can have ebough overlap, just pick the one you want and be glad you like playing divine casters not poor rogues or monks. ;)
[Note: that's a joke, one of my gaming peers plays a monk and I couldn't like his character more, tier be damned he's fun.]
The druid list is good but the domains give the cleric the edge. Plus due to the ability to wear metal armour, some of the cleric buffs really do reap dividends.
The druid has better area affect but the cleric better vs BBEG guy.. and also the cleric does have some very tasty single person blast spells that kick in at 5th/6th.... Elemental Assessor really is tasty!
Well TBH I would like both in my party, but if I had to choose just one I would rather have the cleric. The cleric has more "must have" spells on its list, particularly the important spells regarding non HP healing like remove curse and the full restoration line. Also summon monster (particularly with sacred summons) is usually better than natures ally. Druids have good DoT spells, but combat rarely lasts long enough to make full effective use out of those.
Cleric has a stronger spell list.
Druid's spell list is more fun/interesting. Which is obviously kind of YMMV sort of thing.
Cleric has a better save or suck/lose/die arsenal. Is much better at healing. Summon Monster is much stronger than SNA, and creating/controlling undead (if you're non-good) is also very potent. He's also leagues and leagues ahead in the buffing department. Finally, and most critically... cleric beats the pants off of druid when it comes to anti-caster spells. Mainly, abjurations but not all. Druids just... don't have them. Antimagic Field, Dimensional Anchor/Lock, spells that inflict negative levels (very quick way to ruin someone's caster level)... Cleric is just much better equipped to defeat enemy casters.
Also, the domains allow for potentially a lot of flexibility, such as picking up flight or teleportation spells, or illusions.
Druid has more blasty spells and a better array of battlefield control spells. They're definitely the better class to wipe out an army of non-casters. Spike Stones, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Entangle...a lot of spells that will just utterly dismantle a large group of noncasters.
I personally prefer the blasting and BFC stuff and can't stand all-or-nothing save or die/lose spells, so I like druid casting better. But cleric's definitely the stronger list. Especially vs. other casters or outsiders (banishment spells), which are the most powerful/dangerous enemies in the game.
Weal or woe?
Clerics are pretty much the only class for healing, though healing patron witches get everything necessary. Anything else and you have to hope your GM just doesn't use certain monsters and/or spells against you because you have no countermeasures.
Druids play more like the treeantmonk god wizard with lots of movement impairing spells and with the robust blasting to abuse condition metamagic like dazing and rime.
Well this isn't quite true, most classes can do HP healing, or buy items scrolls to UMD. Also oracles can make for effective healers, but with all the problems of spontaneous vs prepared that entails. Paragon surge fixes that at least for half elf oracles (you choose expanded arcana for the free feat).
It is a matter of taste more than anything else, until you can cast 9th level spells, at which time the cleric wins the spell contest.
But druids have other options besides spells that are comparable to spells. Up to mid levels I think the druid wins hands down. At higher levels, prior to gaining ninth level spells, it's more of a wash.
It is a matter of taste more than anything else, until you can cast 9th level spells, at which time the cleric wins the spell contest.
I think cleric wins long before then. But yeah, Miracle is pretty freaking sweet.
Well considering that clerics can take an animal companion with the right domain, and with a small easily paid feat tax have it druid powerful, I think clerics win (especially since most clerics don't because the other options are better, says something about how good domains are). They also have better buffing spells, a more powerful summons list, and the ability to remove conditions better I have to put my money on the cleric. Both are amazing classes though, the difference in power level between the two is smaller than the difference between the next best class.
Druids have better CC and DoTs, and both are good to have but in my experience as a player and GM that combats usually tend to be to short and brutal for that to make a big deal about.
I think discounting everything else clerics definitely have the spell game won.
Just bear in mind spellcasting is like 1/3 of what a druid can actually do where with clerics it's like 1/2 of what they do.
Clerics better.
Hate Druids. Too much magic stop my regeneration.
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The druid has the best spell list for druids.
The cleric has the best spell list for clerics.
Funny how it turned out that way.
Summon Monster is much stronger than SNA, and creating/controlling undead (if you're non-good) is also very potent.Being able to spontaneously cast SNA is much more powerful than Summon Monster
Mmm... I would argue that the casting time mitigates the spontaneous aspect in a way that makes it somewhat less than "much more powerful."
It's nice to have, but it hardly breaks the druid over the cleric.
Bruunwald, generally if you're waiting until combat begins to cast SNA, you've already gotten yourself into a bad tactical situation. Propertly used, the casting time of SNA shouldn't be a major problem. Besides, shaman druids can do it in a standard action anyway.
Both clerics and druids have great spell options. Druids have somewhat better non-spell options. I tend to prefer the druid spell list for messing around with the battlefield, but clerics have plenty of options for that too.
Until you get to "miracle" it's really a matter of taste. Miracle and Wish are the two spells that make druids a lesser caster than wizards or clerics. And I think druids should totally get miracle.
I think discounting everything else clerics definitely have the spell game won.
Just bear in mind spellcasting is like 1/3 of what a druid can actually do where with clerics it's like 1/2 of what they do.
For clerics, especially in higher levels, its about 3/4ths of what we do. Battle Clerics fall off pretty hard after 5th level spells. Theres a sad point where you go, "Yeah I could full attack it and maybe hit.....or I could cast something that might win the fight."
Summon Monster is much stronger than SNA, and creating/controlling undead (if you're non-good) is also very potent.Being able to spontaneously cast SNA is much more powerful than Summon Monster
Not really. More versatile, not more powerful.
The creatures themselves still are blatantly inferior.
Druid: Has to prep any healing spells he thinks party might need, and often is paying +1 spell level compared to cleric for them. Can spont. convert slots to summons that are inferior to cleric's summons.
Cleric: Has to prep any summons he thinks he might need. Can spont. convert slots to healing as needed.
I think cleric has the better deal there...
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Clerics are also much better in low-combat campaigns. For example:
- Need to solve a murder? The Druid has to hope it happened in the forest so he can interrogate the rabbits, and their responses may not even be helpful. The Cleric can interrogate the body, the murder weapon, and even check in with his deity who is busy keeping NSA-level surveillance on the planet just by existing.
- Need to uncover the scheming lord's plot by attending his charity ball? Clerics are generally respected members of society long before you get to the spell list. Once you're inside, you have Detect Evil to single out suspicious people, Comprehend Languages to figure out what they're whispering about in the corner, Find Traps to help you snoop around without tripping alarms, Darkness/Silence to sneak around, Shatter to bypass locks etc, and even Augury to know whether or not you should do that.
- Ally or NPC has mystery ailment? You get restoration earlier, remove X earlier, Heal earlier, Status, and if all else fails, Raise/Resurrection.
I think that, for most adventuring groups, the cleric has a spell list that is more 'party friendly'. That is to say, clerics have more or easier access to more of the spells that their group is going to wish somebody could cast.
That's not to say that a cleric is better than a druid. Wild shaping, animal companions, summoning allies, and domains all complicate that to the point of making the question unanswerable in the general and immensely variable in the specific.
The cleric spell list just seems to have a more basic 'general utility' for the group than the druid spell list. Maybe 'easier to be useful to almost any group' is the best way to put it.
Battle Clerics fall off pretty hard after 5th level spells. Theres a sad point where you go, "Yeah I could full attack it and maybe hit.....or I could cast something that might win the fight."Frightful aspect combined with a quickend divine power is pretty potent. I have a level 1 fighter / level 15 cleric that is just kicking booty all over the place. I started with 16 str / 16 wis and put all stat increases to wisdom and have never felt the need to stop going melee when I want to. Now I did take leadership and have a 14th level bard tossing out a hefty morale bonus every combat, but I don't think that is the make or break point of the build. I end up something like this when I pull out all the stops:
+8 to hit & damage for strength
+5 to hit & damage for luck (divine power)
+3 to hit & damage from enchantement (greater magic weapon)
+3 to hit & damage morale (+d6 sonic damage) (bardic performance)
+2d6 holy damage (holy weapon)
BAB = 12/7/2so my attack bonus is +31/26/21 for weapon damage + 19 + 3d6
I can also use fervor if someone hasn't cast haste (but that would chew up another round, so I don't.) We don't have a fighter in the party, so I don't know how that compares to a normal melee guy, but I seem to be keeping pace with the monk, and we are routinely hitting opponents way over our CR.
Not a bad build. I seem to be having problem at lower levels however. I assume you get Frightful Aspect as a bonus spell from your domain and you use your only slot for a Quickened Divine Power? My problem stems from, yeah I could buff up for this one fight but where would I be for the rest of the day? But I see your point. Perhaps I should use more lower level spells to augment my abilities. I just feel so stingy with my spells. Part of me wants to scream but what if we get hit with a greater dispel magic, but the other side is checkin out dem numbers.
Perhaps it's a GM thing, but I have found that martial combatants who depend on multiple buffs to be effective tend to find themselves dispelled, out of spells or fighting in anti-magic fields enough to make a difference when compared to pure full BAB martial characters.
Yeah, they work fine when you can depend on your magical effects, I just find that to be less dependable in our games.
Perhaps it's a GM thing, but I have found that martial combatants who depend on multiple buffs to be effective tend to find themselves dispelled, out of spells or fighting in anti-magic fields enough to make a difference when compared to pure full BAB martial characters.
Yeah, they work fine when you can depend on your magical effects, I just find that to be less dependable in our games.
I was hit by an antimagic field just the other day and the one before that dispel magic @_@
Perhaps it's a GM thing, but I have found that martial combatants who depend on multiple buffs to be effective tend to find themselves dispelled, out of spells or fighting in anti-magic fields enough to make a difference when compared to pure full BAB martial characters.
Yeah, they work fine when you can depend on your magical effects, I just find that to be less dependable in our games.
OR you get into rushed situations where you are not given time to cast buffs.
OR you are put in situation where you are forced to wait long enough that your short durations spells expire.
Perhaps it's a GM thing, but I have found that martial combatants who depend on multiple buffs to be effective tend to find themselves dispelled, out of spells or fighting in anti-magic fields enough to make a difference when compared to pure full BAB martial characters.
Yeah, they work fine when you can depend on your magical effects, I just find that to be less dependable in our games.
OR you get into rushed situations where you are not given time to cast buffs.
OR you are put in situation where you are forced to wait long enough that your short durations spells expire.
Which are all risks that everyone faces. A fighter may be in a better position than a cleric in an antimagic field but only marginally.
Dispels don't happen too often and if you play conservatively on your buffs mean nuthin in the long run.
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Like I said Tark, it may be a GM thing. I seem to run into dispels or get put in situations where I have to be very careful about using up my spells quite a bit. I also do the same to my players when I GM. Dispelling their magical effects or making them use up magical resources seems to me to be a rather obvious tactic to employ against enemies that rely heavily on magical effects.
Perhaps it's a GM thing, but I have found that martial combatants who depend on multiple buffs to be effective tend to find themselves dispelled, out of spells or fighting in anti-magic fields enough to make a difference when compared to pure full BAB martial characters.
Yeah, they work fine when you can depend on your magical effects, I just find that to be less dependable in our games.
OR you get into rushed situations where you are not given time to cast buffs.
OR you are put in situation where you are forced to wait long enough that your short durations spells expire.
Which are all risks that everyone faces. A fighter may be in a better position than a cleric in an antimagic field but only marginally.
Dispels don't happen too often and if you play conservatively on your buffs mean nuthin in the long run.
Yes, but buffing caster have to deal with it more than most. So a buff centered cleric would be hit harder by these things that a battlefield control focused druid. It is just something you have to account for in comparing the spell lists.
Yes, but buffing caster have to deal with it more than most. So a buff centered cleric would be hit harder by these things that a battlefield control focused druid. It is just something you have to account for in comparing the spell lists.
Less so than you think.
In my mind a buff centric cleric isn't hitting himself full time wiht buffs. He's hitting everyone. He may drop a single buff on himself given an opportunity but sometimes you've buffed yourself and everyone to a poitn where, if the wizard/sorcerer have done their work well, that you don't need to do much more to be effective.
And keep in mind a cleric is not without his share of battlefield control. No entangle mind, but it's there. Ask anyone whose ever had to deal with a stonewall/blade barrier combo.
A buff heavy character's best friend is a cheap 4000 gp Ring of Counterspells to store a (Greater) Dispel Magic in.
StreamOfSky is right.
Also,being targeted by a dispel isn't really that hard. Unless we are talking about Mage's disjunction, dispel works roughly half the time. If it miss, then the bbeg just wasted his action.
If you are talking about the GM puposellt using dispelling traps and such to target the cleric, then that's not really different to the GM using a lot of Blurr spells to screw the party rogue sneak attack, or using dead magic zones to screw wizards or wind wall/fickle winds to screw the archer fighter.
Unless something has cropped up in a recent book clerics have no battlefield control below 5th level.Most of us don't start the game at 9th level or later, after all.
I suppose Stone shape, vision of hell, obscuring mist, chain of perdition, and wind wall to name a couple just aren't on most people's list either.
Then of course no one ever starts with the rune, ash, plant, caves, smoke, or storms domains just off the top of my head.
Granted I'll be happy to tell you a druid is better off in this department (which is handy in a group without a good god wizard). But it'd be disingenuous for me to tell you that it doesn't exist.
Then of course their's also the debuffs. Or the nastier domain powers.
Yeah I think clerics will be fine.
