Hi, I am planning to start a game next month, and I have been thinking about possible house rules to help with the biggest balance offenders. I have often heard it said that fighters, monks and rogues are generally the three classes most in need of a buff, and I do think they seem a bit lacking compared to some of the others - so I'd like to hear from everyone if they have tried doing something about them and how it worked.
So far, I have the following ideas:
Fighters:
- bravery gives +1 to saves vs fear and to stabilization rolls every 2 levels. At level (11), it allows you to reroll a failed will save vs fear one round afterwards
- armor training gives DR equal to the bonus to maximum dexterity bonus as the fighters are experts in using armor to cushion the impact of enemy blows. This bonus is removed when the fighter is flat-footed. Armor mastery doubles the bonus and removes the restriction. (I wanted to improve the defensive abilities of armor mastery, but I'm not sure if I want to bring back the straight AC bonuses from the beta, especially with the below)
- weapon mastery also gives insight bonus to AC against attacks made with weapons from that category and to the DC of any saves with effects, made with such weapons (i.e. the XXXX critical feats). Weapon mastery also adds to the CMD against any attacks when the fighter is using this weapon (as they are more proficient in using it for defense as well).
- Arms Master: at level (8), fighters suffer only a -2 penalty when attacking with a weapon they are not proficient in. At level (14), they do not suffer any penalties.
- The current weapon mastery ability is shifted to lvl 17.
- At level 20, the fighter doubles all weapon training bonuses with the weapon he chose at level 17 .
- Alternatively: at level 20, the fighter can reroll one missed attack per round.
Rogues:
- The rogue gets an inspiration pool, based off (charisma), that covers near-supernatural feats of luck, cunning and insight, or just bloody-mindedness and opportunism. I am thinking of either using the Gunslinger's grit or the ninja's ki pool for possible effects (although for those who have the 3.5 Dungeonscape supplement, the mechanic there also seems interesting.
Possible uses of the pool: bonus to skills, using touch AC for an attack, ignoring DR for one round, dodge bonus to AC for one round, "empowering" a sneak attack (50% more, like the spell), +1 use of a limited per-day ability, and so on.
Monk:
Sadly, I am a bit out of ideas here apart from using some of the psionic material, such as incorporating the psychic fist or the unarmed soulknife.Giving monks full BAB is an option, although I am trying to shy away from it - perhaps having an ability to move and use their furry to a reduced effect, the way the Mobile Fighter archetype can.
Take a look at The Book of 9 Swords from 3.5. Its a wonderful addition.
Warblade - Fighter
SwordSage - Rogue
Crusader - Paladin (I assume you could convert this to a monk)
Or if you are feeling a bit more adventurous and want to include something that is still in playtest, I'd recommend taking Dragonnamedrake's suggestions, but use the pathfinder versions being developed by Dreamscarred Press in Paths of war.
My idea for fighter improvements are pretty simple, and they don't really ramp up fighters a whole lot:
Fighter gets:
PIck 4 more class skills.
4 skill points per level
pick one more strong save
The idea here is to keep the fighter as the customization class. fighters do plenty of damage already, and can be built to be AC machines. However their saves and skills suck, so hence the above changes.
Now rogues, I prefer to change into skirmishers. The problem with changes to rogues are the edge cases (sap master for example). You can't easily apply a general solution without over powering the edge cases. I just ban the sap feats myself.
But my idea was:
good will save
full BAB (but only counts as 1/2 BAB for feat qualification)
With the style feats and other things now available to monks, it's very hard to find a blanket solution for monks which doesn't exacerbate the edge cases. Perhaps if you outlawed the archetypes it would be possible. Right now, though, without enough system mastery you can make a pretty mean monk.
@ DrBuzzard - how have those solutions worked for you?
I have certainly considered expanding the fighter's skill pool somewhat, but at heart I want them to be the best at what they are meant to do, and that is fighting. For saves, one of my ideas was to replace bravery with a trait called conditioning, that gives +1 bonus to all saves per 6 levels, with double the bonus against fear (will), to resist fatigue and exhaustion (fortitude) and to avoid splash/area weapons (reflex). However, that seems too related to the idea of the fighter as army soldier, not so fitting for the other archetypes the class has to cover. I definitely consider adopting the option form the Campaign guide where they could trade the bonus feat at lvl 1 (and maybe tower shield proficiency) for a larger skill list and 4+int sp. The thing is, I do not want to detract from their focus, and that is meant to be battle. They are good at it at the moment, but not as good as their specialization in it should lead them to be imo.
Rogues need something extra, and I think pilfering the pseudo-but-not-magic resource from ninjas or gunslingers and the like seems a good enough choice. A few things may have to go, a few things may need to be introduced, that sort of thing.
Monks have that system, but it doesn't seem to go quite far enough in most cases (and I'm not sure I've seen a really scary monk, maybe except for the zen archers). Something like the Psychic warrior paths could be an interesting idea, but tbh I am not sure just how to best do it.
I have read Bo9S, and consider it interesting, if not the be-all, end-all of combat types. It reads a bit too magical, and I'd like to find a solution within what PF already offers (or at least as close as possible).
Thanks for the help, by the way :) .
I'm still waiting for my current campaign to end to implement this stuff (and it is taking longer than expected). For the rogue fix, I did a lot of DPR calcs to make sure they didn't get out of hand.
Though actually I do run with minimum 4 skill points per level as a house rule.
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Some simple fighter fixes (without changing too much of the game or adding in mechanics):
Skill points 4 per level (everyone who got 2 now get 4 anyway). Same as Dr. Buzzard.
If that's too extreme you can limit the extra +2 per level over book listed points as Muscle memory skill points which can only be placed in skills modified by STR, DEX or CON.
Fighters now get one extra good save which determined at when they get their 1st level of Fighter. So they can either have a Good Save on Will or Reflex. Same goes with Rogue, but they choose either Fort or Will as their second good save.
Expanded Combat/Fighter feat list:
Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude (and all of their Improved versions)
Also -
Athletic
Endurance/Diehard
Fleet
Run
Toughness
Rogue has a Luck mechanic (new mechanic) that gives him a pool of points equal to 1/2 level plus Dex mod. Points are spent to do some agility/luck related stunts (I don't have the list in front of me) and used as a form of "luck" currency that is spent based on the level of trick they are trying to perform (Skill boost or skill stunt).
Also, the Rogue gets one additional Good Save category (as detailed under the Fighter) of their choice at their 1st Level of Rogue.
Rogues also fight as if they had Full BAB if using Rogue weapons. You can mix weapons types for TW fighting Rogues (using rogue and non-rogue weapons) but that can be too hard for some people to manage the different BAB schemes for each weapon. Keeping it simple, when using Rogue weapons the Rogue gets BAB = Rogue level.
I have nothing for you on Monks - besides giving them Full BAB on "Monk" weapons. No one wants to play the class nor would I want to run it. Sorry
The Fighter changes tested well, some of the Rogue stuff has been tested, but not as much as I would have liked.
I rewrote a lot of the rogue talents to add the ability to use a grit-like mechanic based on Intelligence called cunning (or panache, if you're playing a Charisma-based rogue).
Here's a link to the second revision of it that I posted on the boards a while ago. People seemed to like it pretty well, and I think it works to make the rogue a more viable and effective class. It also gets rid of the ninja, which is IMO just a rogue 2.0 (with more magic!)
Or if you are feeling a bit more adventurous and want to include something that is still in playtest, I'd recommend taking Dragonnamedrake's suggestions, but use the pathfinder versions being developed by Dreamscarred Press in Paths of war.
I cant wait to get my hands on that. First 3PP product that will be a staple at my gaming table.
Should be interesting. I've always allowed tome of battle classes at my pf table, but few have shown interest in favor of new stuff. It might be just whats needed to spark interest.
Monk fix (yes, he needs all that...probably more).
Rogue, though I haven't finished the epic skills still, along with my most recent attempt to fix the Acrobatics skill (crucial to any rogue, but especially melee ones).
Fighter...hits plenty hard, he mainly could use 4 + int skill points, more class skills, and maybe some other utility non-combat stuff. People are attracted to the class for its simplicity, so I'm loathe to make it much more complex.
BTW, one more thing about the fighter - how would you like weapon specialization giving +1 to weapon training bonuses for one specific weapon type, instead of the flat +2 to damage it gives now?
One thing I implemented for Fighters back in 3E was that they got all the improved/greater feat improvements for free, for the ones based on Fighter level.
For example, Greater Weapon Focus requires Fighter 8, so w/ my houserule, an 8th level fighter would just plain get his Weapon Focus improved by +1, w/o having to spend another feat. Ditto for the Weapon Specialization chain.
I also gave him the Warblade's (tome of battle class) Weapon Aptitude class feature, which frankly should have been a fighter thing from the start. Weapon Aptitude allows you to re-assign your weapon-related feats to a different kind of weapon each morning.
So if you're spec'd out for a greatsword then find an awesome +5 holy falchion, you're not up the creek.
Weapon aptitude is interesting, but in between reduced (or no) nonproficiency penalties and weapon training I think fighters are decent in that category. Plus, I do like the idea of mastering one weapon as a concept.
BTW, can I get your feedback on the idea of weapon specialization working off weapon training and just giving you +1 to all WT bonuses with 1 type of weapon?
P.S: Also thinking of changing combat expertise so that it improves defensive fighting rather than giving a different option. I am thinking about reducing the penalty to attack and increasing the bonus to AC by one and eliminating the CMB penalty (or giving a bonus) when fighting defensively. However, I can't find anything stating whether fighting defensively impacts your CMB/CMD.
I like Weapon Aptitude. I've seen too many times where a fighter's focus on a single weapon has come back to bite him in the ass when the DM randomly rolls and gets nice other weapons. The odds of finding your exact weapon are tiny, you basically need a DM who will ensure you find a new [insert weapon name] once in a while. And I think it does make sense that such a skilled martial character could shift his training with one weapon to another. *shrug*
The weapon specialization idea is fine. It's very similar to the 3E variant rules for Weapon Groups.
A game master who uses this variant can rule that any feat that requires a character to choose a specific weapon to apply the feat's benefit to (such as Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, or Weapon Specialization) can instead be applied to a weapon group. The character must still meet the prerequisites for the feat.
Though this variant seems to grant a large benefit to the character, it really doesn't significantly improve the character's power level. Since a typical character only wields one weapon at a time (or two, with a different weapon in each hand), the character doesn't really become any more powerful in a typical fight.
It does mean that a character is more likely to benefit when new magic weapons are found, since he's more likely to be skilled in their use. That can actually be beneficial to a campaign, in that it allows the game master to include a wider range of interesting treasures that the characters actually use (rather than simply sell or trade).
And combat expertise / fighting defensive gives you a dodge bonus to AC, which CMD states applies to it.
Well, if it is fighter only, might as well be a class feature :) .
I have to say though, scaling weapon focus and specialization are an interesting idea.