The Genius Guide to the Talented Rogue (PFRPG) PDF

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Rogues are the iconic masters of stealth and subterfuge, with access to both a number of powerful set class features (primarily relating to traps, evasion, and sneak attacks) and a flexible set of customizable talents. While this gives them a wide range of options, it can also lead to characters with specific sneak, criminal, or adventurer concepts having abilities they don’t need, such as a wilderness scout being a master of urban traps, or an entirely scholarly researcher and archaeologist gaining a huge number of sneak attack dice. Rogues are supposed to be masters of picking up tricks of the trade, but half their class abilities are static bonuses with little customization.

The Genius Guide to the Talented Rogue rewrites the classic rogue class to use a system of edges and talents, rather than static class abilities alternating with talents. Edges represent the “core” features of each rogue, areas of study so intense and specialized that no rogue can master all of them, while the classic talent system has been expanded to include any rogue-like ability a character could reasonable pick up at any time with study. This allows the rogue, ninja, and all their archetypes to be covered by a single class that is far more flexible than the versions in the core rules, without allowing overpowered combinations.

To make this system as flexible as possible, and to keep players and GMs from constantly having to check multiple sources for talents, this product includes talents, advanced talents, archetypes, the assassin, and the ninja alternate class for its abilities (as well as including new talents to expand its breadth). Because some abilities (such as a ki pool) are not appropriate for every campaign, and some GMs dislike allowing abilities from multiple archetypes to be taken by a single character, when an ability is adapted from another class or an archetype, the name of that source is given as a descriptor.

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***** (based on 5 ratings)

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A must have

*****

If you play Pathfinder for the options available at character creation this is a must have. You're not re-inventing the Rogue you just get to design the exact one you want. No more cookie cutter rogues.


Rogue Genius

*****

Talented Rogue

I have enjoyed the entire talented line. It allows you the flexibility (even more than archetypes) to play the character concept you want while still being the core Pathfinder/D&D class-based system.

The rogue always felt like a flexible, but underpowered class to me. Talented Rogue amps up the flexibility and effectiveness. It also just subsumes the Ninja (which to me is really just a flavor of rogue).

With Talented Rogue, you could build a no sneak attack, no trap-finding rogue and have it be a strong niche character. While not my style, it is cool that you could do it.

Buy this and More Rogue Talents. You’ll be happy you did.

Rogue Genius..... ’nuff said.


What character creation *should* look like!

*****

I just staggered my way through "The Genius Guide To The Talented Rogue" by Owen Stephens. There is not a lot of necessarily new material in this. What is staggering - in a very GOOD way - is the concept behind it and the presentation itself. Nothing is set in stone, now. Everything is an option and it will take an astronomical number of character before you start repeating them. In fact, as I was reading thru it, I was mentally designing James Bond, Indy, the A-Team, Aragorn, Stormshadow, & Snake-eyes. Yes, you totally can.

I say I staggered thru it. That's because this product and its "More Talents" follow-on will give you ideas for more characters than you could possibly play in a mighty long time. You can focus with laser-like intensity on a limited core concept and become *very* good at one thing. You can concentrate on being good a set of related abilities. You can spread out and be competent at a little bit of everything. My gaming group has often threatened to make an all-rogue party. Well, now they can, and can do it with NO overlap. Assassin, burglar, diplomat, scout - all doable from here.

THIS is the way character creation should look. It is familiar. It is straightforward. It is complex without being complicated.

It is genius.

(also reviewed on DTRPGNOW and Facebook)


An Endzeitgeist.com review

*****

This re-imagining of the rogue is 27 pages long, 2/3 of a page front cover, 1 page editorial/SRD, leaving us with 25 1/3 pages of content, so let's take a look, shall we?

All right, as the regular rogue, the talented rogue gets d8, 8+Int skills per level, 3/4 BAB-progression, good ref-saves and proficiency-wise, talented rogues get proficiency with all simple weapons, the crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow and short sword as well as light armor, but not shields.

Now unlike regular rogues, that's about where the fixed part of the class ends and where a cornucopia of options begins: At the first 4 levels, talented rogues have to choose an edge each- and they better think carefully, which one they take: After that, no new edges can be acquired in any way! When applicable, the respective edges include the information from which archetype they were taken in brackets. A massive total of 30 such edges are yours for the taking and from evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense etc., there are a lot of different edges to choose from - special mention deserves the fact that there's also a ki pool tied to int or cha in here - allowing for a more versatile choice than via the standard ninja's options. But more on that one later - follow up, effortless sneak etc. - all the favorites from archetypes we've come to love are in here, yours for the combination and to make your rogue a truly unique individual.

Edges are the one component and a rather strong one that mirrors well the more powerful abilities rogues get at low levels. Beyond that, at first level and every level after that, the talented rogue gets one rogue talent - and yes, sneak attack is now a rogue talent, but one of the few that can be taken multiple times to allow you to truly customize how far you'd want to go with the respective sneak attack power. From the Sniper's Accuracy to the Ninja Acrobatic Mastery, combat feats to grit (via the amateur gunslinger feat and only after learning firearm training), fast stealth, hidden weapons, a small wis-based ki pool (or 1/2 wis-mod ki points as bonus to an existing one) to wall climbing, there are a lot of talents - unless I have miscounted 111 of them! And no, I'm not going through them piece by piece - neither will I go through the 42 advanced talents which are added to the list at 10th level - though, as always, some (like the assassin's angel of death at level 15) require higher levels - or edges. If you don't have the evasion edge, there'll be no improved evasion advanced talent for you - and yes, others require specific talents.

The same counts for the 3 capstone grand talents that are available at 20th level. At the end of the pdf, we get an extremely useful list of talents organized by category (e.g. Offensive [sneak attack] or movement), helping you find just which talent you wanted at first glance.

Conclusion:

Editing and formatting are very good, I didn't notice any crucial glitches. Layout adheres to SGG's 3-column, full color standard and the artworks are fitting. The pdf comes fully bookmarked for your convenience.

Owen K:C. Stephens second talented class is interesting in that it is more complex than the fighter - while being less complex than the monk - and yes, I've read this after the monk. And one can see a progression - the monk has been the harder to get right in my opinion, with the rogue already featuring talents and all. Still, the breaking down of all those static abilities into edges and talents is awesome, minor modifications adding to the value of them and how difficult abilities like ki pool etc. are handled make this so much nicer - also, it should be called "Talented Rogue/Ninja" - since all the tools to customize the ninja are in here as well - with options to make ninja that are not dashing scoundrels, but rather cold killers - which makes much more sense to me than the weird cha-mod-based ki pool of the original class. Modular, well-organized, cool - this pdf is glorious and well worth the investment for the sheer amount of customization and options it allows you to explore: 5 stars + seal of approval.

Endzeitgeist out.


So. Beautiful. Can't. Even. Question It.

*****

Normally I start with some sort of clever pun or silly question, but I can't for this one. Not for this one. It is stupendous. Exceptional. Read on to find out why.

Crunch
There is a reason that Owen is referred to as a "Crunch-Master." The man is darn fine at designing and balancing such things, and as I mention in all of my Talented line reviews, Owen's history with character talents in RPGs allows him to shine in this role. This product is roughly 30 pages long, not including its title and ending page. It has a small explanation section, but after that its 100% crunch. And wow, the Talented Rogue goes far beyond any expectations that the two current Talented Fighter products set for me. This product has nearly everything, EVERYTHING you could possibly want or ask for. Almost every core Rogue Talent is present in this product, and the beautiful thing is that their power levels aren't altered very much, making it easy to just slap in whatever new talents other publishers (including Paizo) make into the Talented Rogue model. The class is divided into edges, which represent powerful rogue abilities like trapfinding and uncanny dodge, and talents, which represent everything from existing rogue talents to sneak attack. Yes, sneak attack. You can build a rogue without sneak attack, which I know is something that many people look for.

The sheer scope of this product is incredible. Unlike the talented fighter, I couldn't find a single rogue archetype that wasn't accounted for in this product; you can even mix and match with the ninja with this product, allowing you to make a trapmaster ninja or one of a hundred different unique rogues. If you like the Core Rogue, you will love this product just because of how flexible it makes the Rogue class. 5 / 5 Stars.

Flavor
This is a tough category to talk about. As a revision product, there isn't much flavor in here. Most of the abilities are reprints or reimaginings of rogue archetypes and talents already produced by Paizo. However, the spirit of the product shines through, which is to make a fully customizable rogue. I don't really think flavor is very applicable in this product, and when you buy a Genius Guide, its not often you're doing so for the flavor anyway. — / 5 Stars.

Texture
This product follows the standard Paizo layout and it is absolutely huge. 27 pages of content, most of it rules. One of the things I HATED about the Talented Fighter was that it didn't include a table or some other way to sort the huge amounts of content it presented. Fore Fighter Talents didn't solve this problem either, and I despaired. But then, a light shone through and parted the clouds surrounding my irrational love of organization, and lo, the Talented Rogue contents a list! An honest-to-goodness LIST at the end of the product that sorts all of the talents by their purpose! It was amazing! Stupendous! Spectacular! And I loved every second I spent reading it. Thank you, Owen. Thank you. 5 / 5 Stars.

Final Score & Thoughts
Crunch: 5 / 5
Flavor: — / 5
Texture: 5 / 5
Final Score: 5 / 5 Stars

This is the first Talented product that I have given a 5 of 5 to. Not because Paizo's messageboards prevents me from awarding fractions of stars, but because this product has truly earned it. I am firmly in the camp that the rogue is not a bad class as designed in the core Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. I don't think that of any class, actually. But when I look at the Talented Line, especially the Talented Rogue, I see customization that is simply not available in the core game. I see the pieces of myraid unique characters learning in every talent and in every edge, waiting to be placed together by a loving player with a specific style, flair, and heart in mind. I honestly thing that this is not only how Rogues should be, but how character creation itself should be. Not a premade package that is exactly the same for everyone, but a thousand real, hard choices that allow you to make the character that you have always been searching for. I would consider this product a staple in the library of any fan of the d20 system.

— Alexander "Alex" Augunas


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Webstore Gninja Minion

Now available!

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Thanks Liz!

I shared this teaser section on Facebook, and some folks who don't like/don't use Facebook found out about that and asked if I'd share it here, sooo.....

Save Vs. Wall of Text
Because it includes well more than 175 edges, talents, advanced talents, and grand talents, getting through the talented rogue class write-up can be daunting. Once a character has been written up its easy to look any selected edges and talents if they are presented alphabetically, but when thinking about what talent to take next the abilities can form a nigh-impenetrable “wall of text.”
To help with this issue we’ve categorized all the edges and talents into the following themes and sub themes, based on common rogue character concepts: Defensive (general and saving throws), Flexible Customization, Magic/Mysticism, Movement, Offensive (general and sneak attack), Traps, and Skills (with several sub-categories for specific skills). Each talent gives its name and notes if it is an edge, advanced talent, or grand talent. This allows a GM or player looking for a new option to see which edges and talents are most likely to match his desired character concept without reading through the entire list of options.

Defensive (General)
Another Day (advanced)
Blade Sense (edge)
Defensive Roll (advanced)
Deflect Arrows
Hardy (edge)
Hold Breath
Improved Uncanny Dodge (edge)
Offensive Defense
Redirect Attack (advanced)
Resiliency
Slow Metabolism
Snatch Arrows
Uncanny Dodge (edge)

Defensive (Saving Throws)
Daring (edge)
Divine Purpose (edge)
Evasion (edge)
Hard to Fool (advanced)
Improved Evasion (advanced)
Iron Guts
Slippery Mind (advanced)
Unbending (edge)
Unflinching (edge)

Flexible Customization
Feat (advanced)
Forgotten Talent
Talent (edge)

Magic/Mysticism
Divine Epiphany
Endure Elements
Familiar (advanced)
Feather Fall
Ghost Step (advanced)
Hidden Master (grand)
Invisible Blade (advanced)
Ki Talent
Ki Pool (edge)
Major Magic
Major Petition
Minor Magic
Minor Petition
Mystic Disguise (advanced)
See the Unseen (advanced)
Shadow Clone
Shadow Split (advanced)
Unbound Steps (advanced)
Vanishing Trick
Ventriloquism

Movement
Driver’s Fortune
Expert Leaper
Fast Getaway
Fast Tumble (advanced)
Getaway Artist
Getaway Master (advanced)
Ghost Step (advanced)
Hard Drive
High Jumper
Ledge Walker
Light Steps
Positioning Attack
Rogue Crawl
Roof Running (edge)
Rope Master
Sea Legs
Spring Up
Stand Up
Swinging Reposition
Terrain Mastery
Tumbling Descent
Wall Climber

Offensive (General)
Accuracy
Adaptable Flanker
Ambush (edge)
Assault Leader
Blinding Bomb (advanced)
Choking Bomb
Combat Swipe
Combat Trick
Convincing Lie
Deadly Cocktail (advanced)
Deadly Shuriken (advanced)
Finesse Rogue
Firearm Training
Flurry of Stars
Greater Finesse
Grit
Gut Stab
Instant Poison (advanced)
Ki Block
Ki Pool (edge)
Ki Charge
Lasting Poison
Martial Mastery
Martial Training (edge)
Master of Poisons (advanced)
Master Poisoner
Ninja Training
Opportunist (advanced)
Poison Bomb
Poison Use (edge)
Shank
Smoke Bomb
Snap Shot
Strong Impression
Swift Poison
Unarmed Combat Training
Unarmed Combat Mastery (advanced)
Weapon Training

Offensive (Sneak Attack)
Angel of Death (advanced)
Assassinate (advanced)
Befuddling Strike
Bleeding Attack
Bravado’s Blade (edge)
Brutal Beating
Confounding Blades (advanced)
Crippling Strike (advanced)
Deadly Range
Deadly Sneak (advanced)
Dispelling Attack (advanced)
Distracting Attack
Entanglement of Blades (advanced)
Fearsome Strike
Hunter’s Surprise (advanced)
Knock-Out Blow (advanced)
Master Strike (grand)
Offensive Defense
Powerful Sneak
Pressure Points
Scout’s Charge (edge)
Skirmisher (edge)
Slow Reactions
Sneak Attack
Sneak Stab
Sniper’s Eye
Style Master
Surprise Attack
True Death (advanced)
Underhanded
Unwitting Ally (advanced)

Traps
Careful Disarm (edge)
Cunning Trigger
Frugal Trapsmith (advanced)
Quick Disable
Quick Trapsmith
Trap Master
Trap Sense (edge)
Trap Spotter
Trapfinding (edge)

Skills (General)
Master expert (grand)
Ninja Training
Skill Mastery (advanced)
Survivalist

Skills (Acrobatics)
Acrobatic Master
Daring (edge)
Expert Acrobat (edge)
Fast Tumble (advanced)
Ki Pool (edge)
Ledge Walker
Peerless Maneuver
Second Chance (edge)

Skills (Bluff)
Coax Information
Natural Born Liar (edge)
Honeyed Words
Rake’s Smile (edge)
Rumormongering (advanced)
Skilled Lair (edge)

Skills (Climb)
Expert Acrobat (edge)
Nimble Climber
Second Chance (edge)
Wall Scramble

Skills (Diplomacy)
Black Market Connections
Charmer
Coax Information
Follow Up (edge)
Rake’s Smile (edge)

Skills (Disable Device)
Careful Disarm (edge)
Quick Disable
Trap Master
Trapfinding (edge)
Undetected Sabotage’

Skills (Disguise)
No Trace (edge)
Quick Disguise
Master of Disguise (advanced)
Mystic Disguise (advanced)
Sudden Disguise

Skills (Fly)
Expert Acrobat (edge)
Getaway Artist
Second Chance (edge)

Skills (Intimidate)
Frightening (edge)

Skills (Linguistics)
Guileful Polyglot

Skills (Knowledge)
Esoteric Scholar
Thoughtful Reexamination (advanced)

Skills (Perception)
Canny Observer
Darkvision
Follow Clues
Thoughtful Reexamination (advanced)
Trapfinding (edge)

Skills (Sense Motive)
Hard to Fool
Thoughtful Reexamination (advanced)

Skills (Sleight of Hand)
Deft Palm
Expert Acrobat (edge)
Fast Fingers
Hidden Weapons
Measure the Mark (edge)
Stab and Grab (edge)
Underhanded
Weapon Snatcher (advanced)

Skills (Stealth)
Camouflage
Distraction
Effortless Sneak (edge)
Expert Acrobat (edge)
Fast Stealth
Hide in Plain Sight (advanced)
Misdirection (edge)
No Trace (edge)
Stealthy Sniper (advanced)

Skills (Swim)
Strong Stroke


My eyes! My eyes!

Will there be a book 2 with more rogue talents in it, like for the talented fighter?

Are there options, say a feat, to take talents from another class?

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

I don't know yet if we'll have a "More Rogue Talents" pdf. There are things in development that could go in one, but I'm not sure if A: Sales of this will justify a follow-up (both Talented Fighter and More Fighter Talents were strong sellers, but I can't extrapolate that to a new class yet), B: if that's the best way to use the material (Talented Rogue already has more new talents in it than Talented Fighter did), and C: how many will come through playtesting and development intact (if all but 5 get tossed out as unworkable, I don't have much of a product...)

And no, there's no option for taking talents from another class, although I already drew from the ninja, assassin, rogue, and all the rogue archetypes for this set of options. And I have an option for expanding what kinds of feats you can take.

But as things stand, I want fighters to have fighter talents and rogues to have rogue talents. If you want access to both, multiclass. A multiclass talented fighter/talented rogue can be a *very* effective build.

I probably will have options for using the talented gunslinger with the talented fighter, when that book comes out, but I'll be doing things like that on a case-by-case basis.

Dark Archive

I strongly support this take on classes, as well as combining in some way Fighter and Gunslinger. Do you have plans for other classes? I know about the Monk, but I would very much love to see a Talented Barbarian (with an option to combine it with Fighter in some way).


Dang it.

*sigh*


I also would like to see The Talented Barbarian. After the Monk the Barbarian in my go to class and you guys are doing a stellar job with everything else, I will be buying the whole talented series.

Contributor

Oh, fine Owen. I'll bite.

Contributor

Under the Frightening Edge, you incorrectly refer to the character as a "thug" (the archetype this ability is from) instead of a "rogue."

Your Ki Pool edge is better than the Rogue Talent because it works off of Int instead of Wis (Ninja was always Charisma). Is this intentional?

Under the Natural-Born Liar edge, you incorrectly refer to the character as a "charlatan" (the archetype this ability is from) instead of a "rogue."

Under the Skilled Lair edge, you incorrectly refer to the character as a "spy" (the archetype this ability is from) instead of a "rogue."

I would recommend adding the special ninja weapons to the list of weapons you can use with Greater Finesse; the Katana would be nice, for example.

OWEN!

YOU MADE A BEAUTIFUL TABLE / CHART / WORK OF ART AT THE END OF THE PRODUCT!

That is SO going to be reflected in my review tomorrow. <3 Let me give you a sneak peak:

I adore the Talented Line. It allows a player to build and customize your character like never before. Its a gem, its wonderful, and it makes me wonder why archetypes weren't done this elegantly in the first place.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
I adore the Talented Line. It allows a player to build and customize your character like never before. Its a gem, its wonderful, and it makes me wonder why archetypes weren't done this elegantly in the first place.

^^^ This. I've been looking for a way to create a ninja "plus this, minus that" for a while now, and behold, here it is! You jokers are ace, Owen.

One quick niggle - Page 11, under the 'Greater Finesse' talent, there are three references to "Combat Finesse", including the sentence explaining its prerequisite: "A rogue must have the Combat Finesse feat to select this talent." I presume these are meant to be references to the Finesse Rogue talent (or Weapon Finesse feat)?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Trace Coburn wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I adore the Talented Line. It allows a player to build and customize your character like never before. Its a gem, its wonderful, and it makes me wonder why archetypes weren't done this elegantly in the first place.

^^^ This. I've been looking for a way to create a ninja "plus this, minus that" for a while now, and behold, here it is! You jokers are ace, Owen.

One quick niggle - Page 11, under the 'Greater Finesse' talent, there are three references to "Combat Finesse", including the sentence explaining its prerequisite: "A rogue must have the Combat Finesse feat to select this talent." I presume these are meant to be references to the Finesse Rogue talent (or Weapon Finesse feat)?

Yea me too. I'd love to oh I dont know, have a ninja without poison use and with trap finding...I even have that as the sort of default rogue of my table. I am starting to think Owen tracks the email exchanges my group has on our pathfinder games. Its the only reasonable explanation for the slew of things that I've really wanted that have turned up as SGG products shortly there after.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kolokotroni wrote:
Yea me too. I'd love to oh I dont know, have a ninja without poison use and with trap finding...I even have that as the sort of default rogue of my table. I am starting to think Owen tracks the email exchanges my group has on our pathfinder games. Its the only reasonable explanation for the slew of things that I've really wanted that have turned up as SGG products shortly there after.

O.o

/me starts looking around for the mind-reading lasers

Minister of Propaganda, Super Genius Games

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kolokotroni wrote:
I am starting to think Owen tracks the email exchanges my group has on our pathfinder games. Its the only reasonable explanation for the slew of things that I've really wanted that have turned up as SGG products shortly there after.

Well... we are Geniuses after all.... ;)

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Alexander Augunas wrote:
Under the Frightening Edge, you incorrectly refer to the character as a "thug" (the archetype this ability is from) instead of a "rogue."

Yeah, that error snuck through in a few placed despite my best efforts. (In addition to the ones you mentioned, master poisoner, knife master, a gender mismatch in angel of death, and so on). I'll get those fixed, but fortunately they don't have any impact on using the rules.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
Your Ki Pool edge is better than the Rogue Talent because it works off of Int instead of Wis (Ninja was always Charisma). Is this intentional?

So, the ki pool edge can be based on Int or Cha. Actually, a lot of abilities that were originally one or the other can now be either. that's an intentional design choice, to allow both the Smart Rogue and the Charming Rogue to be valid builds with lots of different character concepts. And that's because taking ki pool as an edge is like having it as a ninja, rather than taking it as a rogue talent -- it's a crucial part of your character abilities.

The ki pool talent IS still based on Wis, because it's based on taking the ki pool talent as a rogue -- a secondary option you can take at any time. In fact, the differences between the ki pool edge and ki pool talent is a good example of why the number of edges you can take is more limited than the number of talents you can take.

(There's also no Extra Edge feat, and that's intentional.)

Alexander Augunas wrote:
I would recommend adding the special ninja weapons to the list of weapons you can use with Greater Finesse; the Katana would be nice, for example.

We played with that in playtesting, but it ended up looking too effective for me.

However, if someone DOES want to go that route, for the additional cost of a feat they can take Performance Weapon Mastery, and use their Dex rather than Str with anything.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
YOU MADE A BEAUTIFUL TABLE / CHART / WORK OF ART AT THE END OF THE PRODUCT!

I DO try to pay attention to fan feedback, and while you were the first person to mention the organizational issue others did as well. This was my effort to provide a solution for both people who wanted something like talent trees, and people who strongly preferred an alphabetical presentation. :)

Alexander Augunas wrote:
That is SO going to be reflected in my review tomorrow.

I look forward to it!

Contributor

And ... reviewed.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Trace Coburn wrote:
You jokers are ace, Owen.

Thanks!

Trace Coburn wrote:
One quick niggle - Page 11, under the 'Greater Finesse' talent, there are three references to "Combat Finesse", including the sentence explaining its prerequisite: "A rogue must have the Combat Finesse feat to select this talent." I presume these are meant to be references to the Finesse Rogue talent (or Weapon Finesse feat)?

D'oh! And no one caught that in playtesting.

It should now already be fixed.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Kolokotroni wrote:
Yea me too. I'd love to oh I dont know, have a ninja without poison use and with trap finding...

Yep, it's in there. :)

Kolokotroni wrote:
I am starting to think Owen tracks the email exchanges my group has on our pathfinder games. Its the only reasonable explanation for the slew of things that I've really wanted that have turned up as SGG products shortly there after.

"Track" is such a harsh word... gently monitor sounds better. :)


So.....just replaced the Rogue at my table for my players. This is how a rogue should be done...well done guys, well done indeed.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Alexander Augunas wrote:
And ... reviewed.

As always, many thanks for the review!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Regarding the recent review (of one star) that said the cover art was used without permission...

On Gabriel Verdon's site Here, you can see a list of products that Mr. Verdon is proudly demonstrating his artwork on. The list includes several E-books (Genius Guides, Bullet Points, and Ultimate Options). Since I don't own the product I can't review it and correct it in the reviews.


One of which is the Genius Guide to the Talented Rogue...huh...


Arazni wrote:


Regarding the recent review (of one star) that said the cover art was used without permission...

On Gabriel Verdon's site Here, you can see a list of products that Mr. Verdon is proudly demonstrating his artwork on. The list includes several E-books (Genius Guides, Bullet Points, and Ultimate Options). Since I don't own the product I can't review it and correct it in the reviews.

That is pretty peculiar given the item in question is listed on the artists page you listed under "e-books" as Cheapy mentioned. The "reviewer" is a one post wonder too...

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

We are aware of this issue, and are taking it seriously. Apparently the artist has stated on twitter that we do not have permission to use this piece. The first I heard of this was yesterday evening, when someone else sent me a link to his twitter post. We've sent the artist an email to figure out what the situation is and try to resolve it.

I'll note (since I've been asked in private) the other piece of art of his we used he has publicly confirmed we had permission to do so, after his initial statement we didn't.


Yes, I was trying to say that the Reviewer was wrong/incorrect/mistaken/false/misdirecting/bluffing/libelous/slanderous/de ceptive/etc... I don't know which is the case, but in either case what he posted on the Review seems to be the opposite of the truth.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I just purchased this product, along with its companion, More Rogue Talents, and I must say I'm impressed.

I feel like I will finally be able to play just the rogue I want, and to make the NPCs I need for my games.

The only thing that would please me more regarding those fine pdfs is if they were (already) available for Herolab :-).


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Hi everyone. Artist here - it turns out it was just an honest mistake. Two years ago I released several of my works under Creative Commons, several of which Super Genius used for cover images (which I was very happy about, since that's the idea behind Creative Commons!). However, this particular image was not released under Creative Commons since I made it specifically for a copyrighted IP.

But I just talked to Hyrum via email, and we've got everything squared away. They are great guys and I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions - it's just that there are a lot of art thieves out there, so we artists tend to startle easily.

Sorry about that!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Thanks for being an understanding fellow Gabriel!

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

I'm very glad to have this all cleared up, and appreciate Gabriel Verdon coming to talk about it here in the forum.

Thank you, sir!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Class act all around.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Yea me too. I'd love to oh I dont know, have a ninja without poison use and with trap finding...

Yep, it's in there. :)

Kolokotroni wrote:
I am starting to think Owen tracks the email exchanges my group has on our pathfinder games. Its the only reasonable explanation for the slew of things that I've really wanted that have turned up as SGG products shortly there after.
"Track" is such a harsh word... gently monitor sounds better. :)

Well you succeeded, there is a talented rogue and a talented fighter in my rise of the runelords game I am starting next month.

Contributor

Kolokotroni wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Yea me too. I'd love to oh I dont know, have a ninja without poison use and with trap finding...

Yep, it's in there. :)

Kolokotroni wrote:
I am starting to think Owen tracks the email exchanges my group has on our pathfinder games. Its the only reasonable explanation for the slew of things that I've really wanted that have turned up as SGG products shortly there after.
"Track" is such a harsh word... gently monitor sounds better. :)
Well you succeeded, there is a talented rogue and a talented fighter in my rise of the runelords game I am starting next month.

Good for you, kind sir!

I'm still trying to convince my GM to let me switch my Rogue levels for Talented Rogue levels. My Charisma-based Samurai REALLY wants to pick up both Bravado's Blade and Frightening! :-)

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in my review, but that's probably my favorite thing about the Talented line. In addition to helping out the Rogue/Fighter class a lot, it also gives a nice boost to multiclassing. Being able to pick what you want out of the class is very nice for making unique, personalized builds which is something I've always thought Pathfinder was lacking.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Yea me too. I'd love to oh I dont know, have a ninja without poison use and with trap finding...

Yep, it's in there. :)

Kolokotroni wrote:
I am starting to think Owen tracks the email exchanges my group has on our pathfinder games. Its the only reasonable explanation for the slew of things that I've really wanted that have turned up as SGG products shortly there after.
"Track" is such a harsh word... gently monitor sounds better. :)
Well you succeeded, there is a talented rogue and a talented fighter in my rise of the runelords game I am starting next month.

Good for you, kind sir!

I'm still trying to convince my GM to let me switch my Rogue levels for Talented Rogue levels. My Charisma-based Samurai REALLY wants to pick up both Bravado's Blade and Frightening! :-)

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in my review, but that's probably my favorite thing about the Talented line. In addition to helping out the Rogue/Fighter class a lot, it also gives a nice boost to multiclassing. Being able to pick what you want out of the class is very nice for making unique, personalized builds which is something I've always thought Pathfinder was lacking.

Well certainly more modular classes will be more multi class friendly than archetypes. I kind of like the idea of having both modular and linear version of the classes. Modular ones are better for player characters, where as the normal classes are better for npcs. Players have the time to pick through the huge amount of talents and edges to make a character (one character), for a dm, that is extremely frustrating and time consuming. It is more or less why I dont dm saga edition anymore, it just takes too long to make mid or high level npcs.

This gives players the flexibility to meet thier concepts without having to take 'filler' class features that dont fit their concept, while the existing classes give dms a faster route to simpler npc builds (just using classes and archetypes with set abilities).

That said if it werent for the fact that the fighter, rogue (and possibly monk) are on the low end of the power scale, I would be worried about power creep. Once you make every option selectable, you make optimization alot easier. Its more or less the problem with summoners, that every single thing they get can be chosen from a wide list. It definately seems to me this line is going to give a bump in power to most rogues and fighters, but as long as the classes altered are on the low end of the power curve that doesnt really bother me.

Contributor

I don't agree with you in your assessment that the Talented Rogue is more powerful than the standard rogue. Better optimized? Certainly. But not more powerful. The key is that the Talented Rogue has the same system that limits the core rogue; the fact that most of the offensive abilities, the ones that modify sneak attack are limited to one modification per sneak attack. Most of the very strong abilities don't stack for this reason.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
I don't agree with you in your assessment that the Talented Rogue is more powerful than the standard rogue. Better optimized? Certainly. But not more powerful. The key is that the Talented Rogue has the same system that limits the core rogue; the fact that most of the offensive abilities, the ones that modify sneak attack are limited to one modification per sneak attack. Most of the very strong abilities don't stack for this reason.

Distinguishing between more powerful and better optimized is semantics. A talented rogue can more easily be more likely to succeed in what it is attempting to do then a normal rogue, because it can pick and choose abilities that work towards that end (whatever the character is being made to be able to do) without taking abilities that dont. I am not saying this is a bad thing for the rogue, its a good thing for the rogue, but it is a reality of making things more modular. As most people consider the ninja to be 'better' then the standard rogue, the talented rogue is more so, because it can have everything the ninja gets but also trade in or out anything from the rogue. If ninja < rogue, then the talented rogue is better then both.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

The *idea* was to create a class that was no more effective at helping a party through an adventure than a well-built standard rogue (and for that matter no more effective in general combat than a standard rogue), but that *could* successfully achieve combat aims and adventure aid in more different styles.

The same theory applies to the fighter. I have described the talented fighter as "able to do what a fighter does was well as a core fighter, but with more potential effective builds."

The line between "more builds that are effective" and "builds that are more effective," is a thin one and ultimately the playing public will decide how good a job I did, but my take on "balanced" allows for lots and lots of the former, as long as you generally stay away from the later.

Dark Archive

I just got Talented Rogue and More Fighter Talents. I must say that I am very pleased with both products, as well as Talented Fighter. I would even like to see Barbarian and Gunslinger broken down into Fighter Talents - for instance, d12 for HP could be a talent, as well as various Barbarian Rage Powers. Perhaps this could be done via archetype for Talented Fighter, which forbids heavy armor.

Anyway, excellent stuff by SGG.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

nightflier wrote:
I just got Talented Rogue and More Fighter Talents. I must say that I am very pleased with both products, as well as Talented Fighter.

Glad to hear it!

nightflier wrote:
I would even like to see Barbarian and Gunslinger broken down into Fighter Talents - for instance, d12 for HP could be a talent, as well as various Barbarian Rage Powers. Perhaps this could be done via archetype for Talented Fighter, which forbids heavy armor.

Right now I'm assuming I'll have sections talking about how to do that when/if the Talented Barbarian and Talented Gunslinger come out.

nightflier wrote:
Anyway, excellent stuff by SGG.

Thanks!

Dark Archive

Are there any news about new products in this series? Can you tell us if you are satisfied with the sales so far?

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

Sales have been quite strong, as have reviews, IMs, and comments from my own game group. I expect to release The Genius Guide to the Talented Monk late this month, though development could theoretically delay that until early or mid-July. I'm nearly done with the changes from my last playtest wave from weeks ago, and may or may not send it out for one more playtest pass. And even if I don't, going from a rough playtest draft to a final form is time-consuming.

But the line is definitely continuing. I expect to, at the minimum, also do the Talented Cavalier and Talented Gunslinger. If things continue to be strong, I'll be looking at how I want to continue past those.

Contributor

Cavalier would be interesting for sure. I wonder if Challenge would function like Sneak Attack, where you have to pick the talent multiple times in order to gain multiple uses?

Also, how would order abilities fit into the talented cavalier? Would they too have to be selected? Or would they be like Rogue Edges and just sit there? Really makes you think.

Dark Archive

I am looking forward to see those classes, since I think that they can be merged with Talented Fighter with very little or no work on my part. I'd like to allow my players the greatest possible degree of customization, and I must say that the guy who usually plays Fighter (actually, he mostly plays gish characters) is thrilled with Talented Fighter. He bought the Guides for our party, in fact.


quick question - going through this product, I found an edge that stumped me.

Where does the Unbending edge come from?

I looked at the Pirate Archetype and it isn't there. Couldn't find it through d20pfsrd.com either.

PS: MORE talented classes!!! I am loving these. Of course, I loved the Ultimate Classes for 3.5e as well.

Contributor

amberkat wrote:

quick question - going through this product, I found an edge that stumped me.

Where does the Unbending edge come from?

I looked at the Pirate Archetype and it isn't there. Couldn't find it through d20pfsrd.com either.

PS: MORE talented classes!!! I am loving these. Of course, I loved the Ultimate Classes for 3.5e as well.

A few of the edges / talents are brand-new material. That might be one of them.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

amberkat wrote:

quick question - going through this product, I found an edge that stumped me.

Where does the Unbending edge come from?

I looked at the Pirate Archetype and it isn't there. Couldn't find it through d20pfsrd.com either.

PS: MORE talented classes!!! I am loving these. Of course, I loved the Ultimate Classes for 3.5e as well.

Unbending is half of what used to be in Unflinching, but got changed in playtesting (separating out the two bonuses). Since I was changing how it worked, i changed the name to prevent people from seeing that they had Unflinching on their sheet, and looking it up in the archetype and using that version or being confused.

Since the core bonus was from the pirate, I still listed it as the archetype or origin.

Paizo Employee Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

amberkat wrote:
PS: MORE talented classes!!! I am loving these. Of course, I loved the Ultimate Classes for 3.5e as well.

Talented Monk should be out this week, and Talented Cavalier is being worked on.


Just picked this up today. I love the concept and will probably be incorporating it into my game in some fashion.

A couple things jumped out at me, though:

1) What's an Edge vs. what's a Talent doesn't always seem to make sense. For example, the Swashbuckler archetype's proficiency in a single martial weapon is designated an Edge, while the Ninja's weapon proficiencies are considered a Talent. Edges generally feel like they should be more than Talents, but this seems the other way around.

2) It's very easy to build the Core Rogue with this system (you just need to spend the 20th level Edge to buy a talent. Otherwise, everything is one for one.) The Ninja, as printed, however, ends up missing out on two talents' worth of stuff, by my count. I guess this proves the common contention that the Ninja is flat-out better than the Rogue, but it seemed odd. (I have not tried building any of the other printed archetypes yet, so I'm not sure how they hold up.) It's not the end of the world, but I don't think I'm going to get buy-in on this from the player who's currently planning on playing a ninja. :)

All that being said, I definitely don't regret the purchase as there is plenty of great stuff in here (I like some of the new talents) and as I said before, the concept itself is golden.


Kalshane wrote:
1) What's an Edge vs. what's a Talent doesn't always seem to make sense. For example, the Swashbuckler archetype's proficiency in a single martial weapon is designated an Edge, while the Ninja's weapon proficiencies are considered a Talent. Edges generally feel like they should be more than Talents, but this seems the other way around.

That's actually one of the things I liekd about this design. Picking up a bunch of thief-like stuff from another culture (ninja proficiencies) is easy. Picking up a two-handed sword, land, or great-axe (martial weapons thieves don't already get) is the same as burning a feat. You can DO it, but it takrs a bigger resource.

Kalshane wrote:
2) It's very easy to build the Core Rogue with this system (you just need to spend the 20th level Edge to buy a talent. Otherwise, everything is one for one.) The Ninja, as printed, however, ends up missing out on two talents' worth of stuff, by my count.

Well, first your talented ninja ends up proficient with hand crossbow and rapier for free, which *my* ninja players love. (Hand crossbow is an awesome poison-delivery system).

Secondly, if your player's ninja has no interest in (draws breath) Ambush, Bravado's Blade, Expert Acrobat, Freightening (to go with Bravado's Blade), Misdirection, Roof Running, Scout's Charge, Trapfinding, Accuracy, Distraction, Master Poisoner, Sneak Stab, Spring-Up, or Tumbling Descent, then let him play a core ninja. (Or don't -- youre right, this is proof they aren't balanced against rogues). But if any of those appeal (and that's JUST the list of things a ninja can't get normally, and I didn't even both with advanced talents), then they'll be happy to have the more flexible build given here.

Heck, one of my ninja players went crazy-happy because he could build a Ninja with Ki based on Int, rather than Cha. He didn't WNAT to be a dashing, loveable rogue. He wanted to be a keen-thinking, cold assassin.

Kalshane wrote:
All that being said, I definitely don't regret the purchase as there is plenty of great stuff in here (I like some of the new talents) and as I said before, the concept itself is golden.

So far in my experience, no one who in my games who has access to this and wants to be sneaky or sly at all isn't thrilled. :)

Also, it means I can have some players make "ninja" and some stick to rogues, and no one complains. :P


Reviewed first on Endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to GMS magazine and NErdtrek and posted here, on OBS and d20pfsrd.com's shop. Cheers!


Picked mine up and read through it last night. I worked REALLY hard at not looking at it as an editor, but simply as a GM/player/end-user. Also picked up the More Talents companion.

These two products absolutely sold me on the other three talented classes, as well as any more that show up.

I've already had so many character ideas that I may have to create a "Talented Rogues Gallery" just so I can work with all the concepts.


While using the T/rogue, I ran into what is likely just a misunderstanding on my part. The main question, boiled down, is - how do Ki Pool (edge) and High Jumper (talent) work together? A couple of quotes:
Ki Pool (...) At 10th level, she also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2
and
High Jumper: When a rogue with this talent makes a high jump, the DC for that jump is half the normal DC.

You have to have the Ki Pool edge to have the High Jumper talent, so they are obviously intended to work together. Does a T/Rog10 with the Ki Pool/Acrobatics Master/High Jumper chain reduce the DC of a high jump by 1/2 for Ki Pool and then by 1/2 again for High Jumper? (I'm seeing Luke coming out of the carbon-freezing chamber on Bespin, here!)

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