I've seen some people claiming kukris are the best for dealing damage, however, this isn't true according to the numbers I've crunched.
As I recall, people prefer a scimitar/kukri setup for two-weapon fighting, not just kukri/kukri.
Unless you really do mean only using 2 of the same weapon, in which case never mind me.
As I recall, people prefer a scimitar/kukri setup for two-weapon fighting, not just kukri/kukri.
Unless you really do mean only using 2 of the same weapon, in which case never mind me.
I do, but that shouldn't change the numbers too much, it would be a change of 1.00 dmg/hit vs the two-bladed swords net 2.00 dmg/hit over the kukri.
But yes, I did mean that, but even so, it shouldn't skew the numbers too much, just lower the strength breakover point.
Should the numbers be run with the two-bladed sword user one feat behind the kukri user, to represent the exotic weapon proficiency requirement?
Or is that being assumed to be covered with an ancestral weapon trait or racial quality like ancestral arms?
Yes and no. There shouldn't be any feats that affect damage and/or hitting without effecting both, i.e. power attack, that both fighters can't take. Even then, if the kukri was non-human and the two-bladed sword was human it would be equal.
The fighters have so many feats to burn that increase non-single weapon damage or other things that they always have enough feats to max out a single weapon stat at any one time.
SAWTOOTH SABERS!!! 1D8 in both hands, plus you can drop one to 1.5 your Str when you needed.
I'm assuming that is so splat book, that it hurts. I try to not splat as much as possible. The number of cheese books you let in, the greater the chance the game just suddenly breaks.
Mr. Jade, The reason the Kukri is superior is because:
1) Damage dice is not the main section of DPR calculations. Static bonuses are.
2) Kukri have a better threat range. This, combined with static bonuses are where the Kukri will (barely) edge out other weapons. But, it may take awhile in the career of a PC.
BTW, your calculations are incorrect. You factored out other damage bonuses as being 'equal' and they are not. You cannot factor out any damage bonuses in DPR calculations because those damage bonuses relate to different threat ranges and crit modifiers differently.
The DPR calculations are:
[(Chance to hit)*(Average damage+precision damage)]+[(chance to hit)*(chance to crit)*(critical modifier-1)*(average damage)]
Starting Ability Scores (20point buy): Str 16, Dex 15+2, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Level 20 relevant ability Scores Str 26 (+6 Belt and +4 from levels), Dex 24 (+6 Belt and +1 from levels)
Feats and other relevant abilities:
Weapon Training: +6att/dam (Gloves of Dueling)
Weapon Mastery: Increases multiplier by 1.
Gr. Weapon Focus: +2att
Gr. Weapon Specialization: +4dam
Power Attack: -5/+10 and -5/+5
Double Slice: (offhand has full strength damage)
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (including pre-req feats)
Improved Critical: Doubles threat range
Total feats: 10 (11 for Two-Bladed)
Attack bonus: 20(BAB) +5magic +8strength +2Focus +6Training -2TWF -5Power = 34
calculations
The AC of a "base" CR20 creature is 36 (Bestiary p291, Table 1-1)
Chance to hit on first pair of Iteratives: 2+ = 95%
Chance to hit on second pair of Iteratives: 7+ = 70%
Chance to hit on third pair of Iteratives: 12+ = 45%
Chance to hit on fourth iterative: 17+ = 20%
Chance to Critical (not to exceed chance to hit):
20% for Two-bladed sword vs 30% for Kukri
Kukri average (main): 2.5 +5magic +8strength +4specialization +6training +10power = 35.5avg
Kukri average damage (off-hand): 2.5 +5magic +8strength +4specialization +6training +5power = 30.5avg
TBS average (main): 4.5 +5magic +8strength +4specialization +6training +10power = 37.5avg
TBS average (off-hand): 4.5 +5magic +8strength +4specialization +6training +5power = 32.5avg
No precision damage so that is being removed.
Formula: [(Chance to hit)*(Average damage)]+[(chance to hit)*(chance to crit)*(critical modifier-1)*(average damage)]
Kukri main1: [(0.95)*(35.5)]+[(0.95)*(0.3)*(3-1)*(35.5)] = 53.96
Kukri off-hand1: [(0.95)*(30.5)]+[(0.95)*(0.3)*(3-1)*(30.5)] = 46.36
Kukri main2: [(0.70)*(35.5)]+[(0.70)*(0.3)*(3-1)*(35.5)] = 39.76
Kukri off-hand2: [(0.70)*(30.5)]+[(0.70)*(0.3)*(3-1)*(30.5)] = 34.16
Kukri main3: [(0.45)*(35.5)]+[(0.45)*(0.3)*(3-1)*(35.5)] = 25.56
Kukri off-hand3: [(0.45)*(30.5)]+[(0.45)*(0.3)*(3-1)*(30.5)] = 21.96
Kukri main4: [(0.20)*(35.5)]+[(0.20)*(0.2)*(3-1)*(35.5)] = 9.94
Kukri Total damage: 231.70
TBS main1: [(0.95)*(37.5)]+[(0.95)*(0.2)*(3-1)*(37.5)] = 49.875
TBS off-hand1: [(0.95)*(32.5)]+[(0.95)*(0.2)*(3-1)*(32.5)] = 43.225
TBS main2: [(0.70)*(37.5)]+[(0.70)*(0.2)*(3-1)*(37.5)] = 36.75
TBS off-hand2: [(0.70)*(32.5)]+[(0.70)*(0.2)*(3-1)*(32.5)] = 34.79
TBS main3: [(0.45)*(37.5)]+[(0.45)*(0.2)*(3-1)*(37.5)] = 23.625
TBS off-hand3: [(0.45)*(32.5)]+[(0.45)*(0.2)*(3-1)*(32.5)] = 20.475
TBS main4: [(0.20)*(37.5)]+[(0.20)*(0.2)*(3-1)*(37.5)] = 10.5
Two-Bladed Sword total damage: 219.24
As you can see, Kukri does more damage at level 20 than the Two-Bladed Sword. But, while I did not show the calculations I did them ages ago and they show that it takes quite awhile for the Kukri to catch up to the TBS.
- Gauss
Edit: The Sawtooth Sabres are not splatbook. They are in the main Golarion Sourcebook: Inner Sea World Guide.
They are functionally identical to a Two-Bladed Sword but are two weapons instead. Man of Steel 84 may have forgotten that you can switch to a two-handed grip on a Two-bladed sword and get 1d8*1.5str (but you lose the offhand attacks).
To Guass
How? Only strength and base damage is multiplied. Your equation would multiply unmultipliable number. The core rulebook states this. Magic and precision damage aren't multiplied.
Also, to me, Inner Sea Guide is certainly splat.
If anything this forum adeptly proves is that the Core rule book is not god otherwise there would not be so much errata and editions. Also, what Gauss uses for calculating DPR is the most accurate method for calculating DPR (there is even a thread on this forum for biggest DPR at certain levels and they use this formula).
Well, there's always that. In the newest CR, it says magic dice aren't multiplied. I'm going to go thumb through my hardcopy, because I referenced that today for these calculations.
Other than that, I'll take your word on the DPR calculations. I'm no math whiz, just a biology one. I will say, my character have specialized in Combat Maneuvers since PF dropped, which would be the best counter to this build at a non-20 level. At 20th level, there are plenty of other classes that could basically insta-death any melee class.
Mr. Jade, everything is multiplied except for Precision and extra dice from things like energy, vital strike, etc.
Static bonuses such as Strength, Power Attack, enhancement bonuses, weapon specialization, and weapon training are usually multiplied except if they are from a precision source (none of what I was doing was from precision or extra dice).
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
It's that last sentence that trips people up but that sentence is intended to mean that extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage dice is not multiplied.
Here is where it is explained in more detail:
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.
Just a note: extra damage that is not multiplied on a critical is factored into the DPR equation. It is in the first part of it (the non-critical calculation) but not the second part (the critical calculation).
If you would like me to walk you through how it works I'd be happy to do so. :)
- Gauss
SAWTOOTH SABERS!!! 1D8 in both hands, plus you can drop one to 1.5 your Str when you needed.
I think this silliness is why two bladed sword was used. A double weapon can be wielded as a two handed weapon. You can't do that and TWF with it at the same time obviously, but that just means you reserve that for when you are doing some kind of standard action attack.
That is why I put my hat in with the two bladed sword for more damage in general. Unless you pick specific archetypes for fighters (mobile fighter gets a pseudo pounce, but sacrifices the highest BAB attack...not sure how that interacts with TWF), it is hard to compete with that on a high strength build.
If you would like me to walk you through how it works I'd be happy to do so. :)
I'm an old Grognard, my greatest weakness is thinking that AD&D rules still apply here in PF.
I think this silliness is why two bladed sword was used.
Back in my day, we used bloody stone clubs. I kid. But really, I agree. Weapons can be much too overpowered.
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For straight up damage in actual play I'd go with a double weapon for the fact that during standard action or AoO you get 1.5 STR and 3:1 Power Attack.
However, the kukri has other qualities that make it a better choice in general (IMHO), namely its a martial weapon, it can be used in a grapple or when swallowed whole, and it's easily concealed.
Mr. Jade, Ive been playing D&D for 30+ years. Sometimes I still get confused between different editions. Not often though. :)
Krodjin, what is this thing you call grapple?
Otherwise known as: I love Liberating Command!! :D
- Gauss
Nope, it was originally in the Inner Sea Guide book (the hard bound one) and has been reprinted in the ultimate equipment book.
The MAXIMUM amount is actually to Duel Wield either Scimitars or Falcata's but the only class that can do that without sucking the penalties for Heavy weapons is the Two Weapon WARRIOR archetype.
Before level 11 it's best to go Scimitar/Cestus (for 2 handing on standard action attacks and AOO's) then go with 2 scimitars once you can wield them as light weapons.
In actual play a lockdown TWW that focuses on crits will do most damage per full attack and two weapon AOO's
The MOBILE FIGHTER or Dawnflower Dervish or a pouncing barbarian do the most damage on a move (though the barbarian will still just likely be a 2 handed pouncer)
I am referring to full attacking OPPORTUNITIES here. Which is different than math. You need to make full attacks happen for the math to work.
