|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Calling all Cavaliers, Samurai and Paladins!
There was a very good blog on poison use in Pathfinder, and I wonder if a similar one could be made to clear up mounted combat and charging issues.
I am going to be running a cavalier in PFS, and have realised that the mounted combat rules are extremely confusing, especially when combined with a charge…
As a result I have some questions:
1 . If you making a mounted charge and attack with a lance, does:
a. The charge stops at the reach distance of the lance (ie 10 foot away) from the enemy, and you then make your lance attack, and your dog stops and gets no attack, or
b. You make your lance attack at the reach distance of the lance (ie 10 foot away) and the dog charge then continues and your dog attacks the enemy when it is adjacent. You get to CHARGELANCEBITE!
2. What happens if your mount has reach, such as an axe beak?
3. If you have ride-by attack, can your mount attack the same enemy (E1) as you did? Or does it need spring attack? Can it instead go on to attack a 2nd enemy (E2) at the end of its charge? Or do you simply lose the attack of the mount if you use Ride-By Attack?
Y = Y
E1 = 1st enemy
E2 = 2nd enemy
| = path of your charge
Y
|
|
|
|E1
|
|
|
E2
4. When you and your mount attack, do you just make a ride check, or do you also need to make a handle animal check?
These questions seem to crop up again and again, so it would be great to have developer input, especially as I am now playing PFS.
I have done multiple searches, and managed to find very little developer input:
Here is what I have found
The thread dates from 2010
This is a brief summary of Sean K Reynolds main posts.
Sean K Reynolds Oct 12 2010
If you want to move, have the mount attack, and move, the mount has to have Spring Attack. Ride-By Attack lets you attack in the middle of moving; it doesn't change the attack sequence for your mount (it doesn't mention your mount attacking at all).
Sean K Reynolds Oct 17 2010
Many, many times I say while running a game, "don't let the squares on the map tell you what is or isn't a straight line."
I just can't draw a straight line in the message boards except in 45-degree-angle increments. :p
Here's a diagram I put together. All four of the charge paths shown (gray, yellow, green, and orange) are perfectly valid charge attacks. The red asterisk shows the "closest space from which you can attack your opponent" according to the charge rules. If you don't have RBI, you have to stop there as the end of your charge; if you do have RBI, you can keep moving past that (as the arrow does).
Hello, I am a link to a charge diagram. ….
Well, if you look at my diagram, you'll note that most of those paths mean you attack at about a 45 or 60 degree angle from your attack vector. Only the yellow path puts you at a steeper angle, and that's probably because it's debatable whether or not you should be counting the square to the left of the asterisk--the line passes right through the intersection of four squares northwest of that asterisk, so if you ruled that the hero passed through the square west of the asterisk as part of his charge, that square would be the closest square from which the hero could attack, in which case even the yellow path's attack angle would be about 45 degrees.
A handy thing about being a creature with bendy arms is that even if your weapon is long and rigid (like a lance), your body lets you hold it at an angle from your movement vector; don't let the grid confuse you into thinking that the situation is any different than two jousters approaching each other on parallel separate paths. Take away the grid and look at the approach... it's still a guy charging and hitting someone in a square he could reach with the weapon if he were standing still (i.e., if the Hero could hit an Enemy from an asterisk square in the diagram when he's not charging, he should still be able to do it when he's charging).Ravingdork wrote:
Sean, the very definition of charging (both as a gaming term and as a real world term) requires that you be moving directly towards your enemy.Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Well, that's stupid. (And not how we did it in 3.0. Another annoying 3.5 change, I guess.)
If I charge someone, I should be able to charge directly at them, or obliquely. If I charge and cut a guy as I run by, that should still be valid... my momentum applies to the weapon whether it's in front of me or to my side.
And the 3.5 ruling (as people have pointed out) basically makes it impossible to use RBA because you'd have to move *through* your target. Which means it should be called Ride-Through attack.
Noting for personal houserule and errata-lobbying.
Stephan Neufang wrote:
Sean, would you please answer us the following questions:
- Can a mount attack at a ride by attack?
- If not, can a mount with spring attack attack at a ride by atack
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
1) No, because the mount is doing all the work moving. If the mount is to attack, it needs to use Spring Attack.
2) Without rereading all of the mounted combat rules, I think so.
and also this
Brief summary:
Sean K Reynolds said on Dec 12 2012 :
“If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge.”
Some Rules:
Ride-By Attack (Combat)
While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.Mounted Combat
These rules cover being mounted on a horse in combat but can also be applied to more unusual steeds, such as a griffon or dragon.
Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
Thanks in advance for any input!
You know what they call a mount with an attack?
That's right - a target!
Regardless of ruling unless your GM is a sucker or you have video of him kicking puppies, I'd avoid using the mounts attacks.
I read somewhere that a mounted rider can attack from anywhere in the mounts square. ( but I cannot remember where this is from). If this is the case the mount can move next to the opponent.
In the case of the axe beak it would stop 10 feet away.
For your last question the mounts attack is lost. For you to do the ride by attack I believe it hss to charge. So if its doing anything else ( like spring attack) your not getting the benefits of charging.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As a GM, I always rule that the reach of your lance keeps your mount from attacking, whether that is in a charge, ride-by-attack, or a regular attack.
If the PC is not using a reach weapon, and charges an enemy, I rule that both the PC and the mount could attack with the charge bonus (assuming the handle animal check can be done as a free action - so cavaliers and druids, mostly). Same would be true if the mount had reach.
If the PC does a ride by attack, and does not have a reach weapon, I rule that only the PC gets the attack. Never had a mount with spring attack, so it never came up. I would probably say you can't combine a charge with spring attack, so no attack from mount (the +2 has to come from somewhere). Plus, spring attacks limit the movement of the utilizer to its speed, which would significantly hamper the whole point of a ride-by-attack.
In addition, if you want to charge and go through the space of the enemy, you use the mount's CMB, so the Mount needs Improved Overrun (and Charge Through if wanted later). If you want to Trample, however, the PC needs the feat, not the mount.
Ride check is only to attack while your mount is attacking. Handle Animal directs the mount to attack. If you direct your mount to attack and fail your ride check, you can't attack (you spend the round trying to remain in the saddle).
YMMV on all of this. As written, ride-by-attack doesn't work because, as you posted above, someone forget to read the rules on charging and Ride-by-Attack when switching from 3.0 to 3.5. I usually house-rule the 3.0 rules for charging so that Ride-by-Attack can work.
|
|
I read somewhere that a mounted rider can attack from anywhere in the mounts square. ( but I cannot remember where this is from). If this is the case the mount can move next to the opponent.
Are you thinking of this:
For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
I don't think this allows you to pick the space you attack from, otherwise a character with a reach weapon on a horse would be able to attack adjacent squares as well as squares 10 foot away.
But I could be wrong...In any case, it doesn't help if you have a medium mount.
Thanks to everyone for the replies so far.
|
|
As a GM, I always rule that the reach of your lance keeps your mount from attacking, whether that is in a charge, ride-by-attack, or a regular attack.
If the PC is not using a reach weapon, and charges an enemy, I rule that both the PC and the mount could attack with the charge bonus (assuming the handle animal check can be done as a free action - so cavaliers and druids, mostly). Same would be true if the mount had reach.
If the PC does a ride by attack, and does not have a reach weapon, I rule that only the PC gets the attack. Never had a mount with spring attack, so it never came up. I would probably say you can't combine a charge with spring attack, so no attack from mount (the +2 has to come from somewhere). Plus, spring attacks limit the movement of the utilizer to its speed, which would significantly hamper the whole point of a ride-by-attack.
In addition, if you want to charge and go through the space of the enemy, you use the mount's CMB, so the Mount needs Improved Overrun (and Charge Through if wanted later). If you want to Trample, however, the PC needs the feat, not the mount.
Ride check is only to attack while your mount is attacking. Handle Animal directs the mount to attack. If you direct your mount to attack and fail your ride check, you can't attack (you spend the round trying to remain in the saddle).
YMMV on all of this. As written, ride-by-attack doesn't work because, as you posted above, someone forget to read the rules on charging and Ride-by-Attack when switching from 3.0 to 3.5. I usually house-rule the 3.0 rules for charging so that Ride-by-Attack can work.
So reach is necessary for your mount if you want your mount to attack if you perform a lance charge.
Do you need to make a handle animal check to get your mount to charge, even if it is not attacking? Or is this covered by the ride check?
We'll. The thing is the spot a person sits is on a. Grid intersection. Without the rules saying so why does an attack have to be from the front square?
|
|
We'll. The thing is the spot a person sits is on a. Grid intersection. Without the rules saying so why does an attack have to be from the front square?
Interesting point. It means there is more contention about mounted combat, especially if you can pick which square you attack from. I assumed it to mean that when you are on a large sized mount using a lance you count as a large size, with 10 foot reach, but without 5 foot reach. However, your reading might be the correct one.
If this is the case, a large mount suddenly got much better, even if there is problems fitting it into dungeons.
However, would a mounted lance charge from horseback still stop at 10 foot away rather than 5 foot away, as 10 foot away would be 'the closest space from which you can attack the opponent', so you may still be left with the problem of your mount being unable to attack on a lance charge unless it has reach.
No wonder the cavalier isn't a hugely popular class!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1. Solution A. As soon as you attack your charge end.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after.
2. Both can attack because both have a target in reach.
3. Ride-By-Attack is for the rider, Spring Attack for the mount. You need both (RBA for rider, SA for mount) if you want to move-attack-move with rider and mount. Without SA the mount loses the attack. Splitting the attacks like Move-Attack (Rider)-Move-Attack(Mount) is not legal by RAW.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again ..
4. You only need a ride check. Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount DC10 or Control Mount in Battle DC20
We'll. The thing is the spot a person sits is on a. Grid intersection. Without the rules saying so why does an attack have to be from the front square?Interesting point. It means there is more contention about mounted combat, especially if you can pick which square you attack from. I assumed it to mean that when you are on a large sized mount using a lance you count as a large size, with 10 foot reach, but without 5 foot reach. However, your reading might be the correct one.
If this is the case, a large mount suddenly got much better, even if there is problems fitting it into dungeons.
However, would a mounted lance charge from horseback still stop at 10 foot away rather than 5 foot away, as 10 foot away would be 'the closest space from which you can attack the opponent', so you may still be left with the problem of your mount being unable to attack on a lance charge unless it has reach.
No wonder the cavalier isn't a hugely popular class!
No the Cavalier isnt a hugely popular class because many players are hugely fixated on the whole 'horse' thing. You can honestly ignore the mount and a few other abilities related to mounted combat. OR use them when they are usable.
With the group i play with we Just Moved the mount next to the target and the cavalier go the lance attack. Honestly? wether the mount gets its attack in is really meaningless. If the cavalier is well built the target will be a fine red mist.
The last time a player played a paladin in our group, Once he figured out out to ge this mount flying the only thing preventing him from basically killing anything in range was walls and we hadnt figured out ow to get him passwall easily to solve that issue.
@hoshi
Thanks for correction.
|
|
After some thought and consideration of what others have said in this thread I have edited the text of Ride-By Attack to what I think is implied by the feat, bearing in mind that Sean K Reynolds said “If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge.”
The additions are in bold and brackets:
Ride-By Attack (Combat)
While mounted and charging, you [and your mount] can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and [your mount] use[s] the charge action, you [and your mount] may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
I think this is a valid interpretation as in English, 'you' is both singular and plural. Hence 'you' can be interpreted as both the PC and the mount.
What does everyone else think?
This interpretation would also allow both you and your mount to attack on the way through. (You both attack enemy E1), and the Ride-by Attack stops at any point between E1 and E2
Y = Y
E1 = 1st enemy
E2 = 2nd enemy
| = path of your charge
Y
|
|
|
|E1
|
|
|
E2
|
|
No the Cavalier isnt a hugely popular class because many players are hugely fixated on the whole 'horse' thing. You can honestly ignore the mount and a few other abilities related to mounted combat. OR use them when they are usable.
With the group i play with we Just Moved the mount next to the target and the cavalier go the lance attack. Honestly? wether the mount gets its attack in is really meaningless. If the cavalier is well built the target will be a fine red mist.
The last time a player played a paladin in our group, Once he figured out out to ge this mount flying the only thing preventing him from basically killing anything in range was walls and we hadnt figured out ow to get him passwall easily to solve that issue.
The mount getting its attack means quite a lot when you are 1st level :-)
How did the paladin get his mount to fly?
*This doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the discussion, but I'd just like to add that all this confusion is what made me abandon my mounted character concept completely.
No the Cavalier isnt a hugely popular class because many players are hugely fixated on the whole 'horse' thing. You can honestly ignore the mount and a few other abilities related to mounted combat. OR use them when they are usable.
With the group i play with we Just Moved the mount next to the target and the cavalier go the lance attack. Honestly? wether the mount gets its attack in is really meaningless. If the cavalier is well built the target will be a fine red mist.
The last time a player played a paladin in our group, Once he figured out out to ge this mount flying the only thing preventing him from basically killing anything in range was walls and we hadnt figured out ow to get him passwall easily to solve that issue.
The mount getting its attack means quite a lot when you are 1st level :-)
How did the paladin get his mount to fly?
Gave it the int bump to 3, potions of fly or spider cimb to get around obstacles.
Looks like rider with lance just readies action to attack, then mount charges, as soon as lancer is within reach he resolves his attack (and count as chargin) then mount continue its move and as charge directs "must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent" then attacks it.
About ride-by-attack it does not say that mount can attack durnig move, it even say "When you are mounted" and you mount is not mounted unless you have some wierd concept when you sit on top of eidolon that rides a horse but i dont even want to look that way.
|
Looks like rider with lance just readies action to attack, then mount charges, as soon as lancer is within reach he resolves his attack (and count as chargin) then mount continue its move and as charge directs "must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent" then attacks it.
I like this idea. It resolves most issues.
Therefore - decide the square where you want your mount to charge to. Ready your lance attack.
The PC & the mount do not have to attack the same target - the PC attack and the mount attack are separate.
The mount can charge at an empty square, and this would allow you to get your readied action attack. The mount would forfeit its attack, or fruitlessly attack the empty square. (Charge rules wrote 'After moving, you may make a single melee attack'.)
ie
Y = Y
E = enemy
X = where you attack from with your lance
Sq = Square to which your mount is charging
| = path of your charge
Y
|
|
X
| E
|
|
|
Sq
Depending on the reach of the enemy (E), this may provoke attacks of opportunity from the enemy (E).
If the stars and the grid aligns, then your mount may be able to charge to the appropriate square to also get an attack.
|
|
There is little change between 3.5 and PF regarding mounted combat rules. There is a very good set of articles in how the mounted combat rules work in 3.5 as part if the Rules if the Game series. There is a link in my profile.
Thanks Howie23. The articles are good, but unfortunately I cannot cite these articles in PFS. Also, the explanation that both the character and the mount are charging has been rejected in Pathfinder due to the nerf of RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
|
There is little change between 3.5 and PF regarding mounted combat rules. There is a very good set of articles in how the mounted combat rules work in 3.5 as part if the Rules if the Game series. There is a link in my profile.Thanks Howie23. The articles are good, but unfortunately I cannot cite these articles in PFS. Also, the explanation that both the character and the mount are charging has been rejected in Pathfinder due to the nerf of RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
The RotG articles form a pretty coherent system that works. It isn't a matter of citing them as rules, it is a matter of adopting them as reasonable interpretations. What are you seeing that is contradictory with PF RAW? I'm probably do for an in depth re-read of them, but will put that off until I ever figure out how lighting, stealth, and grapple work in PF. ;)
Edit: For PFS, playing a mounted character requires a healthy dose of being willing to accept table variance and/or educate GMs away from the table.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is little change between 3.5 and PF regarding mounted combat rules. There is a very good set of articles in how the mounted combat rules work in 3.5 as part if the Rules if the Game series. There is a link in my profile.Thanks Howie23. The articles are good, but unfortunately I cannot cite these articles in PFS. Also, the explanation that both the character and the mount are charging has been rejected in Pathfinder due to the nerf of RAGELANCEPOUNCE.The RotG articles form a pretty coherent system that works. It isn't a matter of citing them as rules, it is a matter of adopting them as reasonable interpretations. What are you seeing that is contradictory with PF RAW? I'm probably do for an in depth re-read of them, but will put that off until I ever figure out how lighting, stealth, and grapple work in PF. ;)
Edit: For PFS, playing a mounted character requires a healthy dose of being willing to accept table variance and/or educate GMs away from the table.
Quote:
Full-Round Actions
If a full-round action is shown on Table 8-2 but not included here, you can perform it from a moving mount. You complete the action after the mount completes its movement for the turn. Some full-round actions require some additional notes:
Charge: Performing a mounted charge works just like performing a charge on foot. You use your mount's speed rating. Remember that no creature can charge through an obstacle, another creature, or terrain that hampers movement. Due to its larger size, your mount might be unable to charge in a location where you could if on foot (see page 148 in the Player's Handbook).
The lance charge rules in 3.5 required both you and your mount to charge, which was denied in Pathfinder during the nerf of RAGELANCEPOUNCE. In Pathfinder, only your mount charges leaving the mounted lance attack as a standard action.
PS If you are only going to reread them when you figure out how lighting, stealth and grapple works, then I predict you will never read them again!
PPS I would like a consistent rule to apply for PFS, as although I have only recently started PFS, I both play and GM.
|
|
Yes! Let's have a blog post! These rules are way too subject to GM fiat and questionable wording. I'd love SKR to clarify this section of the rules.
Exactly what I was thinking :-)
I think the first step is to sort out how a mounted charge works, and then move on to how the other feats, such as Ride-by Attack.
If everyone could go to this thread on click on FAQ, it would be great.
Also, there is another thread FAQ on mounted overrun here:
Thanks!