as a question, why do Drawn adventurers in general try to impress?
you are talking about a high risk high reward lifestyle so difficult that you have to be deemed clinically insane to be an adventurer. but adventurers are merely glorified bandits.
it's not the lowly infantrymen who gather in small groups to raid the orcish tribe. it costs too much, both in equipment, and in coffins and funerals, to afford a large scale orcish genocide. it takes roughly 5 human soldiers to kill one orcish soldier
it is cheaper to commision a reward for a group of 5 adventurers to kill an encampment of 100 orcs than to hire 500 human soldiers.
if the 5 of them kill 25 orcs per day before resting, then on the 3rd day, the last 25 will feel a grand message of fear, even if they don't fight to the death of their tribe, they will forever fear the adventurers that took out 3 quarters of their encampment in 3 days, a task that could take those 500 humans a month.
i think crazy elite bandits who make a living commiting murder of fantastic creatures and selling the loot, should not be dressing to impress, donning makeup, or trying to cover up their fearsome presence, those guys probably slaughtered multiple tribes of orcs, countless mines of kobolds and goblins, and crushed 3 hobgoblin armies, not counting the dragons they slew. i wouldn't be messing with these guys, let alone placing restrictions or forcing them to dress up all fancy. out of fear, i'd accept their foul stench and learn to tolerate the look of their bloodstained armor and body fat greased weapons. they are professional killers, most attempts to arrest them would end poorly for the detainers.
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I think boob-plate distracts from the real problem in fantasy art. Posing. Boobplate is barely sexual. Maybe if you're younger, but it's really not so tantalizing. The problem here is that female characters are often drawn in titillating, silly poses. Or they are drawn vulnerable and submissive. This is the real problem in fantasy art and sexism. Boob plate isn't even treating a symptom. It's treating a cut near a severed arm.
I find the boobplate arguments silly because it's so insignificant compared to everything else.
I'll just leave this here to help illustrate your point... ;)
The Hawkeye Initiative| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
i think crazy elite bandits who make a living commiting murder of fantastic creatures and selling the loot, should not be dressing to impress, donning makeup, or trying to cover up their fearsome presence,
And yet such folk the world over for centuries have been doing the exact opposite of what you suggest, instead dressing in the 'bling' of their ages, from ostentatious pirates though to the thug-life bling-bling gangsta's of today.
High-end rollers have always been about the style>substance, and fantasy characters are not necessarily any different.
I think boob-plate distracts from the real problem in fantasy art. Posing. Boobplate is barely sexual. Maybe if you're younger, but it's really not so tantalizing. The problem here is that female characters are often drawn in titillating, silly poses. Or they are drawn vulnerable and submissive. This is the real problem in fantasy art and sexism. Boob plate isn't even treating a symptom. It's treating a cut near a severed arm.
I find the boobplate arguments silly because it's so insignificant compared to everything else.
I'll just leave this here to help illustrate your point... ;)
The Hawkeye Initiative
Hawkeye never looked so FABULOUS~
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There is a case to be made for not doing stupid armour, certainly. This case is, as has been stated, that the image of the game in the eyes of people who might try it should include those people, not drive them away.
About physics, though... Really, get over it. Now. Take a good look at all the iconics. These intrepid people all put themselves into natural and supernatural danger all the time. Some of them have armour to protect their sternums, some have armour that would not even do that... but almost all of them are willing to go into battle WITHOUT A HELMET. Yeah, I know, the force of the blow would be focused into the sternum, which would break. Now tell me, if you have the armour to protect your sternum (yay!), it sure is lucky that that javelin only passed through your temple, your eye, and into your frontal lobe, causing a massive brain hemmorhage. I mean, it could have hit YOUR STERNUM, amirite? You keep talking about "protecting the killbox", while consequently referring to the torso and stomach, but not once in these discussions have I heard anyone complain about the lack of helmets. If there is ONE PIECE of protective wear that EVERY SINGLE PERSON working in ANY KIND OF DANGEROUS CONDITIONS wears, it's a helmet. Thinking that anyone would go adventuring without one is beyond ludicrous.
Give it a rest, okay?
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The problem here is that female characters are often drawn in titillating, silly poses. Or they are drawn vulnerable and submissive.
I agree. It's the stupid poses and oddball stances, as though they are about to start twerking.
There is a case to be made for not doing stupid armour, certainly. This case is, as has been stated, that the image of the game in the eyes of people who might try it should include those people, not drive them away.
About physics, though... Really, get over it. Now. Take a good look at all the iconics. These intrepid people all put themselves into natural and supernatural danger all the time. Some of them have armour to protect their sternums, some have armour that would not even do that... but almost all of them are willing to go into battle WITHOUT A HELMET. Yeah, I know, the force of the blow would be focused into the sternum, which would break. Now tell me, if you have the armour to protect your sternum (yay!), it sure is lucky that that javelin only passed through your temple, your eye, and into your frontal lobe, causing a massive brain hemmorhage. I mean, it could have hit YOUR STERNUM, amirite? You keep talking about "protecting the killbox", while consequently referring to the torso and stomach, but not once in these discussions have I heard anyone complain about the lack of helmets. If there is ONE PIECE of protective wear that EVERY SINGLE PERSON working in ANY KIND OF DANGEROUS CONDITIONS wears, it's a helmet. Thinking that anyone would go adventuring without one is beyond ludicrous.
Give it a rest, okay?
Adventurers published in sourcebooks have all sorts of impracticalities, we accept it on the grounds of artistic empowerment
i think crazy elite bandits who make a living commiting murder of fantastic creatures and selling the loot, should not be dressing to impress, donning makeup, or trying to cover up their fearsome presence,And yet such folk the world over for centuries have been doing the exact opposite of what you suggest, instead dressing in the 'bling' of their ages, from ostentatious pirates though to the thug-life bling-bling gangsta's of today.
High-end rollers have always been about the style>substance, and fantasy characters are not necessarily any different.
our real world bandits, couldn't reach the mythic levels of power the fantasy bandits could kill.
it takes 5 1st level human warriors to kill 1 1st level orc warrior, a human fighter or barbarian could solo the orc warrior at 1st level
a fresh out of the war academy fighter, can take on a foe that 5 graduate guardsmen struggle with. that is a reasonable extent
but the 5th level seasoned fighter or barbarian, is taking on countless hordes of orcs and dropping them in one swing, this guy can solo an encampment of 100 low level orcs. this 5th level veteran is equal to 500 freshly recruited and lightly trained guardsman. he is also able to take on 20 5th level warrior guard captains without a sweat. with 4 other allies, he took on a juvenile dragon and survived, 5th level guard captain can't do that.
1st level magewright or adept, is a lowly magician of common yet cheap talent, a 1st level wizard or sorcerer can take on 5 magerights and a 1st level cleric or oracle, can take on 5 adepts, at 5th level, the wizard or sorcerer, and cleric or oracle, helped the fighter or barbarian, take on a juvenile dragon and survive, while they don't have the spells to take on 20 5th level magerights or adepts, they have far more versatility and enough class features to outshine 3 8th level adepts or magewrights
a 1st level expert is a 1st level expert, they are your generic con man, merchant or swindler. they aren't very practical. a 1st level bard can inspire armies, and a 1st level rogue can deal with magic traps. a 5th level bard or rogue, can solve skill related issues a 5th level expert cannot in their chosen skillset. and they have class features giving them uses for their skills the expert can never touch and will be better in combat than a 3 8th level experts
if you don't know what a magewright is, it is a 3.5 noncore NPC class, the arcane counterpart to the adept with a slightly different spell list.
either way, most fantasy adventurers are far more powerful than anyone in our real world, if they wear bling, that bling usually has a secondary function that makes them better at murder.
Hrmph. More aggression to vent:
No helmet is a classic. Helmets look wonky, they muss up your perfect blow-dried hair, they are sweaty and worst of all, THEY COVER YOUR PRETTY FACE! Movie-makers everywhere have been guilty of this. If ANYONE in a medieval or fantasy movie is even wearing a helmet, it's because they have a secret identity and will later reveal who they are at a dramatically appropriate moment by taking the helmet off. Some people, like Richard Gere in First Knight, even do this WHILE STILL IN COMBAT.
Face it: Valeros' outfit, despite the lack of boob plate, is outright and completely stupid because of lack of helmet. Seelah, likewise, and the boob plate is a very minor problem by comparison. When we get to Feiya and Alazra, though, my brain starts to hurt. In Feiya's case, I can accept it as inconsequential jewelry of sorts. It MAY not hurt her to wear, depending on how it's fastened. But, for the love of Shelyn, ms. Oracle's headpiece/helmet/whatever it is takes all sorts of cakes. First off, she would have an unspeakable headache after ten minutes from the sheer weight. Second, it would break her neck if she made any really sudden moves (like a Reflex save...), not to mention what kind of mess it would make of her head and neck if someone actually hit it. A boob plate would at least deflect some minor blows. Wearing her headpiece is ONLY and COMPLETELY dangerous to her.
Boob plate pales in comparison. Really. And, just to be clear: SCA has NOTHING to do with actual combat of any sort. Nothing.
our real world bandits, couldn't reach the mythic levels of power the fantasy bandits could kill.
Simo Häyhä, Audie Murphy, Daniel Inouye, Charles Upham and the unnamed axeman of Stamford Bridge (among many many others) might disagree with your assertion... though I have absolutely no idea what kind of point you're even trying to make with the rest of your post.
our real world bandits, couldn't reach the mythic levels of power the fantasy bandits could kill.Simo Häyhä, Audie Murphy, Daniel Inouye, Charles Upham and the unnamed axeman of Stamford Bridge (among many many others) might disagree with your assertion... though I have absolutely no idea what kind of point you're even trying to make with the rest of your post.
most of them are badass by earth standards, i'd rate them 3rd level, 5th would be pushing it. they can still be killed by a bullet to the skull or dagger to the chest
the fantasy adventurers, consist typically in most RPGs. of characters that can survive multiple rocket launcher rounds to the face consecutively, survive a critical bullet to the brain, fall hundreds of thousands of feet and survive, without a parachute, wade through lava, slaughter dragons like sheep, you are talking about stuff no human in our own world could survive.
blackbeard doesn't have anything on a 5th level Pathfinder character
One of the Barbarians in NPC codex has 419 hp. That's pretty cool.
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Simo Häyhä took a bullet to the head, and survived.
One of the Barbarians in NPC codex has 419 hp. That's pretty cool.
419 HP?
that is one barbarian no martial character below 10th level should deal with, it would take 10 10th level martial PCs to take him down. and multiple would die.
Simo Häyhä took a bullet to the head, and survived.
probably not from a modern firearm. black powder or anything pre 20th century, i can understand, no way he'd have survived a 21st century bullet or a late 20th century weapon
It is actually not uncommon. A small calibre bullet usually doesn't have the power to punch through the skull (bone is about as hard as steel, and we're packing several millimeters of it). Add to this glancing blows and such, and more people than you think do survive bullets to the head.
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Vesna Vulovic - 10,160m without a parachute.
This unlucky dude
But I digress... back to what I think might be your point... historical armor certainly didn't lack in bling.
Have a look at the Polish Winged Hussars as a very simple example... and yes they did ride into combat like that.
The German Pickelhaube (spiked helmet) also.
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If there was one episode I've not yet seen that I'd like to see. It would be the mythbusters episode to test the validity of boob plate damage distribution...
I say if you don't like boob plate, take the initiative like Kate in the knight's tale... I have yet to see a female character take armorsmithing in any of my campaigns... If you don't like what the men be making... Make it yourself!
Thats what crafting is for!
This is Grognard... signing off...
our real world bandits, couldn't reach the mythic levels of power the fantasy bandits could kill.
Umm how does that relate to the point at hand or support your "low key dress" opinion vs cross cultural and several thousand years of habit to the contrary?
Sure, some players like to keep it low-key, but there is and always has been the majority that want flash and show. Money and power, signified by ostentatious displays of wealth.
My personal experience is that most people I know are a bit embarrassed by flashier and showier pieces of roleplaying art, but I don't have the information to go around trumpeting my stance as the majority position to try and give myself some faux authority.
Wait, your personal experience dealing with high-roller criminal elements and stone cold killers? Really?
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If there was one episode I've not yet seen that I'd like to see. It would be the mythbusters episode to test the validity of boob plate damage distribution...
I say if you don't like boob plate, take the initiative like Kate in the knight's tale... I have yet to see a female character take armorsmithing in any of my campaigns... If you don't like what the men be making... Make it yourself!
Thats what crafting is for!
This is Grognard... signing off...
Kari Byron in boob-plate....
I'd watch!
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This farce of a debate made up of people on one side going, "Guys, come on... it's clearly a sexist thing." and the other side going "NOPE NOPE NOPE Shut up NOPE NOPE."
What really gets me is the people who say that they don't even like boobplate, but will still argue for it on the principle of showing up those "noisy feminists."
Then we get to the people who are simply saying... "But I like boobs... D:" Hey, I don't blame you. I like boobs a lot too! They are wonderful! There is no shame in that (even snarky sarcastic shame). But you know... metal bumps on armor? Shouldn't really do it for anyone older than 12.
Put boobs in your game if you want, but don't create weird new sets of armor to "accentuate" them in battle.
What is more satisfying to you?
A female warrior wearing a bumpy tin can into battle or a female warrior sweating in her more conventional tin can... taking it off after a battle... and then bearing her heaving breasts in lighter clothing.
You can't tell me any of you really want to climb into bed with a women who is wearing boobplate? That would be strange.
Seen Excalibur?
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This farce of a debate made up of people on one side going, "Guys, come on... it's clearly a sexist thing." and the other side going "NOPE NOPE NOPE Shut up NOPE NOPE."
How interesting you feel that way; that for one side you portray a calm reasoned and reasonable non-inflammatory approach, and then demonise the contra party as as being oafish misogynists.
Surely you are going to at least exclude the fencing women that wear breastplates tailored to their bodies, from that statement?If you do not see the difference between practical light armor for fencing and gratuitously sexualized, ineffective and dangerous cleavage plate, I really can't help you.
Boobplate saves lives, and lowers bruising.Bull doody. Boobplate exists in the game mainly because artists like drawing boobs and because heterosexual men find the female form attractive. Also to some extent because some women may want to emphasize their character's femininity and attractiveness, and sticking boobs on the outside of armor is one way to do that in artistic shorthand.
While there is nothing intrinsically wrong with any of that, it does get problematic when female players have a hard time finding character art that is a normal, nonsexualized representation of a female character rather than being primarily a male fantasy about a female character.
The male gaze is not evil, nor are products made with the male gaze in mind. There is nothing wrong with porn. The problem is treating RPG art the same as porn, where the female characters are viewed mainly from the direction of male gaze, emphasizing their boobage at the expense of their adventuring gear. Characters in nonsexual survival situations should generally not be sexed up. Not because it's immoral, but because it's stupid.
Why not practical light armour for game characters? All this talk of gratutious sexualisation, I think you are over-reacting and trying to get offended and up on some sort of high horse. The reasons behind the kerfuffle over boob plate has already been covered. You could let this go you know? You have no power here!
Oh, right, one more thing:
Binding breasts of larger-than-small size to let the wearer don heavy armour would get pretty uncomfortable pretty fast, whether the breasts are man-boobs or regular. And, you know, armour isn't just something you wear the moment a sword hits you. In D&D/PF women routinely walk around all day long in half a ton of armour-shaped metal junk. There IS an argument to be made for comfort, no?
Simo Häyhä took a bullet to the head, and survived.probably not from a modern firearm. black powder or anything pre 20th century, i can understand, no way he'd have survived a 21st century bullet or a late 20th century weapon
Simo was in WW2.
Lol, can't believe you don't know of the grandfather of sniping. This man was the "White Death". He had 505 confirmed kills.
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I think boob-plate distracts from the real problem in fantasy art. Posing. Boobplate is barely sexual. Maybe if you're younger, but it's really not so tantalizing. The problem here is that female characters are often drawn in titillating, silly poses. Or they are drawn vulnerable and submissive. This is the real problem in fantasy art and sexism. Boob plate isn't even treating a symptom. It's treating a cute near a severed arm.
I find the boobplate arguments silly because it's so insignificant compared to everything else.
I too want male and female characters to be standing competently. The poses, oh the poses. It was annoying me for quite a while there.
This farce of a debate made up of people on one side going, "Guys, come on... it's clearly a sexist thing." and the other side going "NOPE NOPE NOPE Shut up NOPE NOPE."How interesting you feel that way; that for one side you portray a calm reasoned and reasonable non-inflammatory approach, and then demonise the contra party as as being oafish misogynists.
We hobgoblins are oafish misogynists as a free action... especially the women.
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Tell you what. I'll believe all this oh-so-sensitive concern about the evil male boob-gazing when I walk into a grocery store and stop seeing "women's magazines" with actresses and models wearing the most provocative clothing possible (sometimes NO clothing) and posing in the most suggestive ways possible.
This idea that boob display and interest is exclusively a male thing is laughably naive and ignorant.
Again, back to my original post on this. I work in a typical professional environment. I NEVER see men wearing provocative clothing, and I see women doing so EVERY DAMN DAY. As far as I know nobody is MAKING them wear that crap, but they wear it proudly.
When women start acting as if this stuff truly matters to them, maybe then I'll start worrying about it myself.
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Tell you what. I'll believe all this oh-so-sensitive concern about the evil male boob-gazing when I walk into a grocery store and stop seeing "women's magazines" with actresses and models wearing the most provocative clothing possible (sometimes NO clothing) and posing in the most suggestive ways possible.
Speaking as a straight guy who likes to look at attractive women, 9 times out of 10, the cover of Cosmo is better than the cover of Maxim.
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Speaking as a straight guy who likes to look at attractive women, 9 times out of 10, the cover of Cosmo is better than the cover of Maxim.
What always makes me shake my head is the ridiculously overt sexually exploitative poses and clothing on FITNESS magazines. It's not enough to have a model in a bikini, she always has to be yanking one side of her bikini bottoms down while standing in such a way that her posterior and chest are both prominently displayed. To sell EXERCISE drugs, doodads and equipment to women.
But gaming miniatures with boob plate are eeeeevillll!
Sheesh.
Oh, right, one more thing:
Binding breasts of larger-than-small size to let the wearer don heavy armour would get pretty uncomfortable pretty fast, whether the breasts are man-boobs or regular. And, you know, armour isn't just something you wear the moment a sword hits you. In D&D/PF women routinely walk around all day long in half a ton of armour-shaped metal junk. There IS an argument to be made for comfort, no?
Absolutely.
Of course, that rules out much of the clothing worn by both male and female characters in Fantasy art.
But I think that this thread has spun out of control to the point, that it no longer matters.
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On boob binding... my wife is... er... well-endowed. When she exercises, she wears the tightest, most "binding" sports bra she can find. She tells me that binding them down tightly is far more comfortable than the alternative if she's doing anything physically active.
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But I think that this thread has spun out of control to the point, that it no longer matters.
Started on a pretty farcical premise, has been a circus sideshow since :)
From this thread, the only genuine information I can take away from this is that:
-If I happen to be reborn as a female in my next life, and in said next life, I happen for some reason to come upon the need for metal plate armor, I'd better be sure it's practical.
-Other stuff about boobs.
/thread
On boob binding... my wife is... er... well-endowed. When she exercises, she wears the tightest, most "binding" sports bra she can find. She tells me that binding them down tightly is far more comfortable than the alternative if she's doing anything physically active.
Actually I think the "lady" fencers also like the plates for that. Bra it down, strap it in, armour it up, adjust for snugness and get to work, lol. A breastplate can assist comfort and proper placement when you are going to swing swords at people.
On boob binding... my wife is... er... well-endowed. When she exercises, she wears the tightest, most "binding" sports bra she can find. She tells me that binding them down tightly is far more comfortable than the alternative if she's doing anything physically active.
That's a sports bra. Now try that with a flat steel plate that needs to sit completely flat against the tummy to actually protect.
Tummy?
Women make it work. They know what they are working with.
Yes. Tummy. A well-endowed woman using a male armour (excepting certain styles, I suppose) is going to have problems. Comparing a sports bra to a chest plate is... not even vaguely similar.
I am saying that as much as a stink can be made of breast shaped breastplates (lol, the nerve!), women today use bras and other parts of clothing and make it work with a breastplates providing space, support and protection during sparring. This isn't really about women in male armour, but women in armour that seems definitely for women (and how this is wrong, bad or sensible).
Is boobplate in fantasy ridiculous? I don't think so. Some customisation would likely be required to accommodate the goods, lol.
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Ok this is definitely off the topic of 'safe' armor, but for those who are whining that morals are subjective... Obviously this is fantasy we are talking about, but it sure would be nice if my two kids,12 and 16, that both LOVE gaming and happen to be girls wouldn't have to keep asking me to tone down what they call 'the hooker look' to the minis they use. We are always filing down and filling in for their characters and commiserating over the art and why the female baddies so often are heavily sexualized while the male ones rarely are (not that that makes it ok for my kids or less sad). Rated R gaming just doesn't need to be the norm.
Certainly in an adult home game setting the only rules that need apply are yours, and when we sit down at a table and you can see the filters come on for most guys it is truly appreciated. But whether we are talking about art, storytelling, or attitudes at the table there is still a problem. It is just sad that for a game genre that started before I was born we are still having to argue about why its not ok to publicly objectify women as a matter of course. Do whatever you want in your home game, but don't expect to be respected by any intelligent self-respecting women who sit down to game with you for it.
I get where you're coming from and I almost entirely agree, until you had to go and say this part:
...but don't expect to be respected by any intelligent self-respecting women who sit down to game with you for it.
Your standards for decency in your own home are your business, and I support your right to filter/exemplify what you find appropriate for not only your typical gaming group, but your daughters as well. I too have 2 daughters(though much younger than yours).
I have to disagree with your post(at least the last sentence) because, simply put, you don't get to speak on behalf of your entire gender. I have 2 women in my gaming group who have no issue with "boob plate" or the like, and they are quite intelligent, and self-respecting.
This is all subjective, so you are just as right to call me wrong as well. But one person's "objectification" is another person's "sexuality assertion." Believe it or not, some people(both genders) embrace their sexuality, and don't think of their bodies as "objects." I can't speak on behalf of what the artists of Pathfinder's books were thinking when they painted those images, but labeling every expression of sexuality as "the hooker look" is a little short-sighted at the very least.
Human(or demi-human in PF's case) sexuality is a thing. Perhaps in several cases, what you call "the hooker look" might be nothing more than a confident, liberated individual. Just my opinion.
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It has come to my attention that apparently I have been actively arguing against the existence of breasts. I was not aware that I was doing it, but after going back and reading my posts I realize their must be no other alternative.
Because indeed, to argue against boobplate is to say that boobs must be always hidden. But this is not true. Boobs must always be everywhere, because women want it that way.
It is all so clear to me now: men have never wanted to show themselves off to the extent women do. All women wear provocative clothing because they can't help themselves. They've shaped their own culture into one where you must "go big or go home" and we men have no role in it. How sexist of these women to exclude us, simply because we lack breasts of our own. How exclusionist and wrong that women get to wear such impressive boobplate armor and we cannot.
So why be exclusive any longer? Boobplate for all! Men, women, children, dragons, gnolls, kytons, oozes... Everyone! Why let copyright infringement stop us? I want to see beholders and mind flayers in boobplate or this thread will have been for naught.
Let us put boobplate onto other boobplate! Let us drag this boobplate into the twenty-first century!
... I'm probably leaving this thread for more productive ones.
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More productive threads? You speak with confused tongue. The new and improved Boob Plate II is the very definition of productive threads!
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Hm. Quite the fascinating thread. It's also completely pointless - a joke thread with a joke premise.
Really - what does "retiring" boob plate armor really mean? How? For who? How much? How often? Or, is this nothing more than a laughable call to wipe it out from existence - "I don't like boob plate armor, so no one gets to see it." Wow... that's going to get you far.
And why is the thread even here? Paizo is supposedly 'progressive' on this front, so...? Then I see someone bringing up "well, it's DC and DeviantArt." Well - what does that have to do with inclusion in RP games? They're not synonymous (hell, I barely even know what DeviantArt is). So - is it really about "inclusion"? That's a pretty big reach. It's especially a reach when anyone can do what they want in their home games (something that was admitted in this thread, making such a protest even more pointless). If there's a problem with DC and DeviantArt, then give them a ringy-ding.
No, this looks like nothing more than a veiled jab at the 'evil male gaze'. It's especially obvious (and galling) when one is railing against boob plate while at the exact same time ignoring the lack of helmets. "Boob plate is silly! But there's nothing wrong with the male gaze. And I'm saying nothing about the lack of helmets. Take me seriously!" Give me a break.
If you don't like boob plate, ignore them for your home games. But other people are allowed to like boob plate. That's the way things go.
