Death of a Magus, Rise of Barbarian - An Exercise In Unoptimization

[Seika]

So that Magus was deemed too OP, the class was banned, and she died after slaying a fleeing enemy and failing to make an impossible reflex save. She was true revived, but came back as a dragon-heritage (my choice) Kobold Barbarian. due to a flawed stone. (Race/Class was rolled.) I was given a choice of one of the 1st party archetypes that replace Fast Movement, and settled on Armored Hulk.

I'm looking to effectively NOT be an OP Barbarian, but I do want to do more than hit things in combat, and maybe set enemies up for my teammates a bit. I have the option of trading Human racial bonuses and the bonus feat for all the Kobold bonuses and penalties. Can shift stat values around, but not adjust them. I'm considering the two builds below – Sunderer and Tormentor/Intimidator

Kobold Stats

Build One - Sunderer
Stats STR 20 DEX 16 CON 18 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 14

Traits Reactionary, Dangerously Curious, Princess (+1 to Intd, Diplo Class Skill), Considering Highlander for Stealth CS instead despite high armor pen.
Drawback Cruel

1 Power Attack, Improved Sunder
2 Superstition
3 Extra Rage Power: L. Beast Totem
4 Witch Hunter
5 Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
6 Beast Totem
7 Greater Sunder
8 Spell Sunder
9 Combat Reflexes
10 Greater Beast Totem
11 Extra Rage Power: Surprise Accuracy
12 Come and Get Me
13 Dazing Assault
14 Unexpected Strike
15 Extra Rage Power: Strength Surge
16 Eater of Magic

Weapons: +2 Furious Dueling Courageous Greatsword/Battleaxe/Earthbreaker Small/Med/Small Size; Dragon Breath 1d8 per 2HD x2 Crit, Fire Dmg, 15ft cone, DC 15 Reflex to halve; Claws x 2 1d3 x 2 Crit
Defense: AC: 25 (10 + 11 (+2 Mail of the Dead/Stonecoat) +4 Dex ) Touch AC:14

+18/16 CMB to Sunder Item/Spell by Level 7 with Bracers of Maneuver Mastery, not counting stat bonuses.

Running Sunder build since there’s no size penalty, and DM likes constructs. If the DM rules against Spell Sunder, I can just pick up Surprise Accuracy earlier. AC will be increased with a Ring of Deflection. Debating between Amulet of Nat. Armor or Mighty Fists. 17 Modifier to Intimidate if I want to cause Shaken for fun. Here’s hoping the DM let’s me trade in my Blackblade for a +1 Furious weapon..

Build Two - Tormentor
Stats STR 20 DEX 14 CON 18 INT 12 WIS 16 CHA 14
Traits Reactionary, Dangerously Curious, Princess (+1 to Intd, Diplo Class Skill), Considering Highlander for Stealth CS instead despite high armor pen.
Drawback Cruel

1 Power Attack, Improved Sunder
2 Reckless Abandon
3 Extra Rage Power: Dazzling Display
4 Animal Fury
5 Intimidating Prowess
6 Intimidating Glare
7 Cornugnon Smash (If DM allows.)
8 Terrifying Howl
9 Shatter Defenses
10 Surprise Accuracy
11 Furious Focus
12 Come and Get Me
13 Dreadful Carnage
14 Increased DR
15 Skill Focus: Intimidate
16 Increased DR

Weapons: +2 Furious Courageous Greatsword/Battleaxe/Falchion Small/Med/Small Size; Dragon Breath 1d8 per 2HD x2 Crit, Fire Dmg, 15ft cone, DC 15 Reflex to halve
Defense: AC: 25 (10 + 11 (+2 Mail of the Dead/Stonecoat) +4 Dex ) Touch AC:14

+22 to Intimidate at Level 5, +27 at level 10

Guarantees Shaken against anything not stackin Wisdom from level 5 onward, guarantees it to anything at 10. All this assumes I don’t raise the +4 bonus to Intimidate from gloves any higher.

I recall that after +27 static dmg, crit range matters more, but a suboptimal weapon would help my goal. How can I improve/make worse? Too good? Just right? Thanks for reading and for any help you can give! ^__^

Edit: Formatting

[Halfling Barbarian]

I like the tormentor build, and I understand you aren't going for optimization (which is why I'm going to say go with the greatsword rather than a reach weapon because Conan carried a big damn sword), but I would suggest getting combat reflexes and quick reflexes instead of animal fury and cornugnon smash. You'll want the extra AO's for come and get me, and just in general.

[XMorsX]

Kobolds are suboptimal for Barbarians (penalties to str and con) so I wouldn't worry too much for being called OP, you will probably have martial teamates who will do more DPR than you.

However you can do some interesting things with a kobold barbarian, like an natural attack barbarian. Use dragonmaw alternative racial feature in order to obtain a bite attack and the feat tail terror in order to obtain a tail attack ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/tail-terror-combat-kobold ). Your favored class bonus raises the damage of these natural weapons. Also, by obtaining the feats Dragonic Aspect ( https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/arg-feats/draconic-breath -kobold ) and dragonic breath for a green dragon ( https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/arg-feats/draconic-breath -kobold ), you can qualify for the monster feat Noxious Bite ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/noxious-bite ), giving your bite attack a chance to inflict the nauseated condition. Now the latter one may be too strong for an unoptimised party, but you will generally have less str than the other martials so I believe that a little debuffing power will be welcomed.

I would use the above in combination with the sunderer build in order to take advantage of the beast totem, superstition and spell breaker rage powers. Nauseated is stronger than the fear effects anyway.

I also like Day Rider and Gliding Wings from the other alternative racial traits.

If you have the option, a level of fighter would let you take your feats faster.

EDIT: Don't forget the Kobold tail attachments. Here you can have a better view of your race: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-kobold. Take notice the 5RP in contrast with all the core races that start with 10RP.

For the sunderer build I would swift INT and CHA.

[Seika]

Halfling - Animal Fury is required for Intimidating Glare and Terrifying Howl, unfortunately - the latter of which is when the build really comes online. It'd be good for avoiding sunder magic weapons, though I see your point about Combat Reflexes. If I were to really make use of CAGM I'd probably just switch back to 16 Dex.

Mors - Looking at the ARG link you've provided, the penalty to Str is absurd... If I go full Kobold and get called OP I may just ragequit. Which would be appropriate to my class.

My DM gifted me the breath weapon so I'm wondering if he'll take that boon back if I switch it to black and mention Noxius bite. Either way Nauseated is an amazing debuff. Thank you for pointing out that feat!! Maybe replace Greater Sunder at 7 and delay it to 13/15?

Day Raider might very well be worth taking due to the -4 Str penalty - I wouldn't want an additional -1 to Atk on top of that. I'm effectively playing a class unsuited for my race, heh.

I'm wondering if the favored class option isn't worth looking into:

Barbarian While you are raging, your racial natural attacks deal +1/4 point of damage.

It would synergize well with the bite and the claws. I might be able to convince my GM to let the Beast Totem line enhance my bite if I go for Dragonmaw. Or the Fiend Totem line for the gore attack. Especially useful once I get access to permanent Enlarge...though I guess at this point I'm optimizing, huh?

The Sunderer is appealing to me more, especially with the above feat set-up, and a tail weapon for blunt damage or tripping. Considering Dazing Assault's penalty and Kobold's low strength, it might a good place to sub it out since -5 Atk is might just be too much at this point.

[XMorsX]

Glad I helped. Well, right now you do not optimise for power play, but for making you barbarian viable. Otherwise an unoptimised kobold barbarian is a joke barbarian...

With a free breath weapon you save two sucky feats, if your DM is that kind take Noxious Bite from lvl1. I don't believe that he will let you do it, but it totally worth it even with the feat tax. In this case I would take these feats right after tail terror and power attack. After these I would continue the sunder line feats, delaying spell sunder until I have improved sunder at least. By RAW the favored class bonus works only on your racial natural weapons but it would not be unreasonable if he lets you have it work for all. Then it is definately worth it, but I would take it anyway.

It is a shame to drop Dazzling Assault, but certainly other feats take priority. When I have more time I will check the build more thoroughly. Anyway, a kobold pouncing and attacking with bite, claws, tail and possibly gore, nauseating the enemy at the same time, would make for a fun character and maybe not so weak after all.

Well if your DM bans Noxious Bite and insists on playing kobold... you can rage... and then quit. :/

[Seika]

Haha, that's very true. I figure if I get perm-Enlarge I can gain 4 Str and 2 Con back, at the cost of 2 Dex. I can then throw most of my money into a Furious Courageous weapon and Str increases.

Hm. Noted. I can switch Imp. Sunder and Noxious Bite. Reckless Abandon is a necessity with the lowered Str. I'm hoping that since Kobolds get claws as part of their description it shouldn't be much of a stretch for him to make that concession..

Dazzling Assault would definitely be nice but I just can't validate it til late-game, if at all, with the STR loss. And I'd still want Greater Sunder at some point - this is, at its heart, a Sunder build. Or at least I'd like to stay close to that.

I'm thinking bite, 2x claws (or greataxe), gore, and tail weapon might get me called out for being OP again but a Barbarian's only really good at fighting so I'd say maybe not. If Noxious Bite isn't allowed, I'm just going to stick with the Human Racial traits and bonuses, (which lets me not take the -4 Str, -2 Con, +2 Dex modifiers) and make a case for a tail weapon.

[XMorsX]

Well with such a build you will probably want to attack with only your natural weapons, otherwise you will have a -5 on natural weapon attack rolls. That is why it is better to spend your money on a furious amulet of mighty fists (don't bother with courageous, ain't worth it) instead of a weapon. If you can have a permanent greater magic fang on you, you should make your AoMF holy too, otherwise stick to enchantment bonuses to counter your low strength. I understand why you want greater sunder as early as possible and I would say go for it right after noxious bite.

[Seika]

Hm. Why do you say to skip Courageous? Ah, +5 modified bonus max. So then maybe Furious +4 Amulet and then a +4 Furious Courageous Dueling weapon as a backup/alternative/for sundering? Arguably, one could sunder with the Gore, Claws x2, Bite and Tail. Which just seems cruel to my DM - leaving an enemy weaponless and equipmentless in one round.

Greater Sunder would certainly help, the earliest it's available is 7 (+6 BAB req.). Beast Totem's Nat. Armor bonus would be awesome and I kind of don't want to push that back...so it's a question of that or Spell Sunder (assuming it's allowed). Surprise accuracy isn't something I'd like to get rid of but when compared to more constant feats, maybe it's not worth it, even if I do plan to eventually rage-cycle.

[XMorsX]

I wouldn't spend more for a weapon than a +1 Greatsword or a +1 Lucerne Hammer, maybe cold iron or silver for the various DRs. Have a sling at hand too. Yes you will sunder with your natural weapons, and having your enemy weaponless and armorless is not so bad as it sounds, other martials could probably have him dead ;) And don't forget that many enemies have natural attacks and natural armor bonus. For the build I would probably do something like this:

1 Noxious Bite (assuming your DM lets you ignore the prereqs like you said)(note that this is a pretty potent start)
2 Power: Lesser Beast Totem
3 Tail Terror
4 Power: Superstition
5 Power attack
6 Power: Reckless Abandon
7 Extra Rage power: Beast Totem
8 Power: Witchunter
9 Improved Sunder
10 Power: Greater Beast Totem
11 Combat Reflexes
12 Power: Come and Get Me
13 Extra Rage Power: Spell Sunder
14 Power: Strength Surge
15 Greater Sunder
16 Power: Eater of Magic

Greater Sunder comes late, but even until then you have a pretty effective barbarian pouncing with 4 natural attacks (3 of which are primary) and nauseating any potential attacker from CAGM, making dazing assault obsolete.

EDIT: If you are not dead set on greater sunder, you can skip it for Raging Vitality, a feat that will drastically improve your survivability.
EDIT2: If your DM forbids you the first level Noxious Bite but not the feat entirelly, see if you can persuade him to give it to you by level 9, instead of the usual Dazing assault that most barbarians get. In this case I would just take all the previous feats 2 levels earlier. Now that I think of it, it is more balanced that way, otherwise nauseated is a really deadly condition on lower levels.

[Seika]

Ah wow, thank you for the suggested build!! I appreciate it. ^__^

Long story, short: Locked to fire-element breath, would have to earn it the feat method even then, and thus no Noxious Bite.

Build now planned as such, taking Mors' suggestions into account:

Race: Lvl. 5 Red-scaled Dragon Kobold
Stats: STR 18(15, all stat level inc. here) DEX 16(18) CON 18(16) INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 12
Traits/Drawbacks: Dangerously Curious, Reactionary, Princess; Cruel
Favored Class Bonus: +1/4 racial attacks damage
Feats
1 Power Attack
2 Lesser Beast Totem
3 Tail Terror
4 Superstition
5 Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
6 Beast Totem
7 Improved Sunder
8 Witch Hunter
9 Combat Reflexes
10 Greater Beast Totem
11 Dazing Assault/Improved Natural Attack
12 Come and Get Me
13 Greater Sunder/Raging Vitality/INA/Dazing Assault
14 Strength Surge
15 Extra Rage Power: Unexpected Strike
16 Eater of Magic

Did some research and found these: Improved Natural Attack, Strong Jaw, Lead Blades, Small But Deadly, Deliquescent Gloves 1d6 acid damage, Longarm Bracers 10ft reach 3/day as a Swift Action

Maybe a little OP at that point, but I feel it would compete well with regular iterative attacks. Some math involving the the above shows this build as performing better damage-wise than a Greatsword build at optimal output for both, even without Small but Deadly. If there's any changes you might suggest, that would be awesome~ May end up writing a guide off all this if it seems like it might help others or just be fun to do - maybe both!

Edit: Formatting

[XMorsX]

Your build is very nice, nothing major to suggest, except that I would insist on grabbing spell sunder at 13 lvl instead of Unexpected Strike, it's utility is far greater. Other than that, I would take Dazing Assault at lvl11 and GS or Raging Vitality at 13 or 15, according with your decision about spell sunder (it depends on if you are planning to sunder only spells or both spells and equipment). Don't bother with INA because it works on only one natural weapon form. I would also stay away from Small but Deadly because of its confusing wording, if your DM rules that it works irregardless of your current strenght it could be a good lvl15 feat, not sure if it is worth it more than the alternatives though. Finally, if you insist on not taking Spell Sunder, I would suggest changing Unexpected Strike with this feat for novas on bosses. I would choose the Spell Sunder though.

Also consider changing your traits and drawbacks. Cruel is a serious drawback, especially considering your racial penalties on attack rolls on top of it. Unless your traits are storydriven, I would prefer Berserker of the Society for extra rage rounds and a trait for +1 Willsaves like Adopted: Carefully Hidden (you could do some nice fluff with the later, a young Kobold hidden from the society by his human "parents"). Initiative is not as important to you as is for the casters. Use magic device is very useful thought, if you find a less hurting drawback it could be a nice choice.

Anyway hope you will have fun and your DM don't ban you again ;)

EDIT: Just checked the drawbacks, Superstitious is highly thematic, other good drawbacks are Paranoid, Pride, Provincial, Unlearned, Xenophobic, Anxious, Avarice, Condescending, Dependent (I assume that you are not the party face right?)

EDIT2: Check this build too for ways to add more natural attacks to your attack routine.

[RebBrown]

You're playing with ridiculous stats. It doesn't matter what you 'do', as long as you get full BAB and Power Attack you'll dish out tons of damage.

I'm not judging you, but to talk about an exercise in unoptimization and coming with these stats comes across as very silly for most I reckon :D

[XMorsX]

RebBrown wrote:

You're playing with ridiculous stats. It doesn't matter what you 'do', as long as you get full BAB and Power Attack you'll dish out tons of damage.

I'm not judging you, but to talk about an exercise in unoptimization and coming with these stats comes across as very silly for most I reckon :D

Probably anyone everyone at the table plays with so high stats, so the relative power is what makes the difference.

[Seika]

RedBrown, I used "Unoptimization" in a relevant sense. Also, I'm forced into using a race that takes a -4 to Str for a forced class that's main stat is Str.

As to your initial reply, Mors...I completely forgot to add Spell Sunder to that build, haha. My GM and I agree on the RAW reading of it so I'll definitely be using it. I'll switch it out for Unexpected Strike, then! Believe it or not, I enjoy the RP/story/fluff just as much as the math/build process, if not more.

Thanks for the additional suggestions! Went with Pride as a drawback as it fits the character now, BotS for the sorely needed extra 3 rounds of rage, and Adopted: Elven Reflexes for the initiative boost. The group is light-hearted enough that rare failures against Will saves while raging won't get me dirty looks. XD

Depending how gear/gold is doled out, I may go for Greater Sunder or Raging Brutality at 13. If can somehow get the PFS version of Dueling on a weapon applied to Sunders, GS won't be worth it. Though extra damage going to the wielder could be awesome, indeed.

Overall, I'm confident in what I'm doing now with the character. Thanks for all your help! ^__^ I'm really liking the idea of that guide now, and should I go through with it, I'll most certainly credit you@

[XMorsX]

Well, good to help, and let us know how the campaign goes and how you are doing. For any other issue you have feel free to post it and we will discuss it!