Partly inspired by the forthcoming Advanced Class Guide, I've been considering banning multiclassing except for prestige classes and considering creating hybrid classes instead.
One of the more interesting ones is a Monk/Rogue hybrid with a little bit of barbarian thrown in. It would seem to be a good replacement for the 1e Thief-Acrobat and the D&D cartoon Acrobat as a thief replacement
Monks and rogues share the same HD, BAB and reflex saves, so that's easy. Then give the monk's Fort save (acrobats have to be fit) and the rogue's will save. Skills should be easy to identify as well and 6+Int seems a reasonable balance between the two.
Armour would probably be the same as a rogue's with mostly rogue weapons also used.
All of the rogue's specials are kept except for the sneak attack and the monk's fast movement and slow fall are added in. The rogue talents and monk bonus feats are merged and replaced with a set of feats/talents that are athletic in nature. Finally the barbarian's damage resistance is added in to simulate the acrobat's ability to roll with blows as a replacement for the monk's ac improvement.
The end result might be interesting as an adventuring character but would be weak in combat. To boost this I was considering a first level ability of an extra movement action being allowed. This would be constrained so that a character couldn't spend three actions moving but could double move and perform a standard action (like a spring attack)or move and do a full attack or do a double move and another move action such as getting something out of a backpack. I was also considering allowing their level to be added to their acrobatics rolls. This class would then still be weak in combat but would be expert at getting to enemy spellcasters.
Maybe as a 20th level capstone ability the acrobat would be able to feather fall or blink several times a day as an immediate action.
Thoughts, feedback, discussion most gratefully received.
Seems like a very reasonable idea, but bear in mind that the monk and the rogue are considered the weakest core classes.
You want something to encourage mobility in combat. I'd suggest something like a flying kick which does a lot of damage if the acrobat moves at least 10'. This might effectively be the Scout's charge and skirmisher abilities. Also let them charge around corners.
Feather fall and blink are pretty feeble for 20th level. Or 10th level for that matter. By 20th level, the acrobat should be jumping across planes, not across alleyways.
I wouldn't use DR. An acrobat should be bombing around the battlefield not being hit at all, simply because he's 15' away by the time the baddie swings at him. OTOH, a cornered acrobat is a flat acrobat.
Stat-wise, Str and Dex are obvious. You might want to use one mental stat (Wis or Cha) but don't go making this too MAD. Monks are very MAD already, and rogues are almost as bad.
Thanks, I'll look back over the Scout for inspiration. The ability to deliver a big hit at the end of series of acrobatic maneuvers seems appropriate, maybe a choice of powerful charge or pounce at the end of a charge with a successful acrobatics check or adding the character's level to the damage on a successful acrobatics check.
Maybe the spells like featherfall, blink etc should become talents.
What about permanent freedom of movement and/or the ability to air walk a number of times a day as a capstone ability
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Capstone - a 20th level acrobat never provokes attacks of opportunity by moving through threatened squares, no matter how fast he is moving. He gains a climb speed equal to his land speed, and automatically succeeds on any jump checks whose distance doesn't exceed his movement.
also, i think the extra move action is too good.
but you might look at this for inspiration. scroll to the modified flurry mechanics.
You might look at the Ascetic Acrobat. It's based on a ninja rather than a rogue, but it's pretty close.
Hm, I was going to suggest a monk/rogue MCA, but looking over them, I was surprised that we haven't made a Mnk/Rog, or Rog/Mnk for that matter. Thanks to pointing out our work Mudfoot.
Thanks for the feedback.
I really like Rainzax’s line of thought for the capstone but it is too good as it stands. Allowing the acrobat to always take 10 on acrobatics checks and giving the acrobat a climb speed of ½ their move speed so they get the ability to always take 10 and a +8 climb bonus. I also think the ability to move at full speed through difficult terrain is reasonable for someone so in control of their balance.
I agree that the extra move action is too powerful but giving spring attack as a 1st level bonus feat works. I also like the devious charge in the ascetic acrobat and the idea of linking it to the sneak attack mechanic. That gives the acrobat the choice of flitting in and out of range making weak attacks or building up momentum to deliver a big hit but staying in range.
Looking at the core rogue class, swapping out trapfinding for, let’s call it physical agility, that adds half the character’s level to acrobatics and climb is straightforward. It is tempting to add fly and escape artist into that too to replace the inability to disable magical traps.
Rebaselining, the result now is basically a rogue with a swapped out trapfinding, capstone, a different sneak attack mechanism. Adding the fall, ability to change direction during a charge, fast movement are all making the class superior to the rogue.
To rebalance the easiest choice is to make the direction change during a charge a feat/talent or to add it to the capstone and I think the capstone is best. The ability to take 10 on fly and escape artist should also be added to the capstone.
Fast movement is easy to justify dropping, the acrobat can move more accurately, not faster than most people.
The acrobat should be able to fall and the two choices for evening out are to either reduce the number of talents or to reduce the amount of sneak attack damage and sneak attack damage is worth more than falling. Perhaps every 3rd sneak attack is swapped out for an additional 30 feet that can be fallen on a successful acrobatics check….
Wait, stop, better idea. The physical agility allows an acrobat to add half their level to acrobatics and climb and additionally allows the acrobat to soften a fall from any distance even if the fall is not deliberate, the DC increases by 5 for every 10 feet fallen after the first (i.e. 10 feet is DC 15 as per CRB, 20 feet is DC 20 and so on) if it is not an intended fall the base DC is 25 + 5 per 10 feet fallen beyond the first 10 feet.
Now sneak attack is back to being replaced by the charge mechanic which scales with levels.
Hmm, now it’s just a homebrew rogue archetype.
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how about:
Acrobatic Feint (Ex):
At 1st level, the rogue gains a bonus to her Acrobatics, Climb, and Fly checks equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1). Further, if she successfully uses Acrobatics to move through an opponent's threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from him, she may apply her sneak attack damage to her next attack against him this round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Tumble Through (Ex):
At 3rd level, the rogue may ignore up to 10 feet of difficult terrain per round. This grows by +10 feet every three rogue levels, to a maximum of 60 feet at 18th level. This ability replaces trap sense.
next, make Slow Fall and Fast Movement (as monk) special rogue talents.
1 - Dodge feat
2 - Ledge Walker talent
3 - Mobility feat
4 - Fast Movement talent
5 - Slow Fall talent ('Extra Talent' feat)
6 - Spring Attack feat ('Combat Trick' talent)
7 - Skill Focus: Acrobatics feat
Agreed with Atarlost; the class needs something to do offensively. My immediate suggestion would be combat maneuvers. EDIT: Or potentially increasing it to a d10 full BAB class.
Its getting kind of silly how often I recommend this. But anyway, I am playing a monk rogue hybrid using the Talented Rogue and Talented Monk. They break both classes and their archetypes up into talents and 'edges' that are chosen as you level. The monk has rules for combining the two.
If anything the 'hybrid' options would give you a good baseline to develop a pure class that mixes the two.
Atarlost, Ilja, thanks for your feedback. Do your comments take into account my Monday message where I put the sneak attack mechanic back in as additional damage on a acrobatic charge. To my mind that seems to make it comparable to a rogue. It also fits in with the original idea that the acrobat would be a good character to attack spellcasters. Their acrobatic capability should allow them to bypass intervening martial characters and put a big hit on the caster.
Rainzax, thanks for your thoughts. I'm quite happy with the Physical Agility ability with the increased falling capability replacing trapfinding. I like the increasing ability to move through difficult terrain but I also like trap sense as the acrobat should be able to react and move more quickly than most others. Having both is adding more power than either the monk or the rogue.
Dropping in rogue talents and feats and letting some of them stack such as fast movement is a good idea
I'm pretty happy with the result as a rogue archetype, but it doesn't fulfill my goal of having a hybrid class. I think I'll start again basing it on the Monk and raid the MCA archetypes or ideas. I don't have the third party books so can't look at them and part of the pleasure is thinking through the ideas rather than just using somebody else's.
Actually a Monk/Rogue is pretty much the same as a Ninja. Maybe some tweaking of that class is all that is needed. From that standpoint the Ascetic Acrobat is pretty much perfect. Took a while for me to work through it but thank you all for your help.