Infinite natural 20s on skill checks?

[Ravingdork]

From Mythic Adventures...

Supreme Trickster (Su): At 10th tier, whenever you make an attack roll against a non-mythic foe, that foe is treated as flat-footed, even if it has abilities that prevent it from being flat-footed. Once per round when you roll a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, you regain one use of mythic power.

...

Stealthy (Mythic)
Your grace and fluidity are beyond compare.
Prerequisite: Stealthy.
Benefit: The bonus on Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks from Stealthy increases by 2. In addition, you can expend one use of mythic power to treat an Escape Artist or Stealth check as if you had rolled a natural 20. You must decide to use this ability before making the roll.

So, provided there is a mythic foe nearby, could I always take 20 on the opposed Stealth check against him (since it generates new mythic points to replace those I've expended)?

[DM_Blake]

Looks infinite to me. Now if you combine it with some kind of attack, like sniping, you could pepper this mythic enemy with an infinite number of ranged attacks and always get an automatic 20 on the roll to return to stealth (although that might not be enough to beat the perception of all mythic enemies, but it might work nicely against most of them).

Nitpick: getting an automatic 20 is not the same thing as "take 20".

[The_Hanged_Man]

It seems that way. Seems strong...but since you are effectively a demigod of trickery at that point that is entirely reasonable.

[voska66]

It's not infinite though. You just eliminated the cost. So it not longer costs you a mythic power act as though you rolled a 20 because you gain a mythic power for rolling a 20. Only argument I can see against this some might say that still isn't rolling a 20.

As well you need to make opposed skill check, if there is no opposed skill check you can't use this. So it's like a fighter chopping down trees. He can go till he is exhausted. You can do this also as you have someone opposing you.

[seebs]

Ravingdork wrote:

From Mythic Adventures...

Supreme Trickster (Su): At 10th tier, whenever you make an attack roll against a non-mythic foe, that foe is treated as flat-footed, even if it has abilities that prevent it from being flat-footed. Once per round when you roll a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, you regain one use of mythic power.

...

Stealthy (Mythic)
Your grace and fluidity are beyond compare.
Prerequisite: Stealthy.
Benefit: The bonus on Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks from Stealthy increases by 2. In addition, you can expend one use of mythic power to treat an Escape Artist or Stealth check as if you had rolled a natural 20. You must decide to use this ability before making the roll.

So, provided there is a mythic foe nearby, could I always take 20 on the opposed Stealth check against him (since it generates new mythic points to replace those I've expended)?

I wouldn't count "treat as if you rolled" quite the same as "you roll". You didn't roll a natural 20, you just treat the skill check itself as if you did.

[blahpers]

seebs wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

From Mythic Adventures...

Supreme Trickster (Su): At 10th tier, whenever you make an attack roll against a non-mythic foe, that foe is treated as flat-footed, even if it has abilities that prevent it from being flat-footed. Once per round when you roll a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, you regain one use of mythic power.

...

Stealthy (Mythic)
Your grace and fluidity are beyond compare.
Prerequisite: Stealthy.
Benefit: The bonus on Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks from Stealthy increases by 2. In addition, you can expend one use of mythic power to treat an Escape Artist or Stealth check as if you had rolled a natural 20. You must decide to use this ability before making the roll.

So, provided there is a mythic foe nearby, could I always take 20 on the opposed Stealth check against him (since it generates new mythic points to replace those I've expended)?

I wouldn't count "treat as if you rolled" quite the same as "you roll". You didn't roll a natural 20, you just treat the skill check itself as if you did.

So, you're saying you wouldn't treat the check as if you had rolled a natural 20?

[Sadurian]

The first passage definitely says 'when you roll a natural 20'.

That, to me, involves rolling a die and getting a 20. Treating a skill attempt 'as if I had rolled a natural 20' would not be the same as actually getting one on the die. One involves physically rolling, the other deals with the subsequent consequences.

It's obviously down to interpretation, but I can see a difference between the two.

[Ravingdork]

Wouldn't "treating it as if you had rolled a natural 20" mean it works?

Cause, you treat it as if you rolled a natural 20, in every way, without clause.

[Adamantine Dragon]

FAQ'd it, because I think Dork has read it the way I would, and that means it needs to be addressed by the devs.

[seebs]

blahpers wrote:

seebs wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

From Mythic Adventures...

Supreme Trickster (Su): At 10th tier, whenever you make an attack roll against a non-mythic foe, that foe is treated as flat-footed, even if it has abilities that prevent it from being flat-footed. Once per round when you roll a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, you regain one use of mythic power.

...

Stealthy (Mythic)
Your grace and fluidity are beyond compare.
Prerequisite: Stealthy.
Benefit: The bonus on Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks from Stealthy increases by 2. In addition, you can expend one use of mythic power to treat an Escape Artist or Stealth check as if you had rolled a natural 20. You must decide to use this ability before making the roll.

So, provided there is a mythic foe nearby, could I always take 20 on the opposed Stealth check against him (since it generates new mythic points to replace those I've expended)?

I wouldn't count "treat as if you rolled" quite the same as "you roll". You didn't roll a natural 20, you just treat the skill check itself as if you did.

So, you're saying you wouldn't treat the check as if you had rolled a natural 20?

I would treat the check as if you had rolled a natural 20. But there was no die roll, so you didn't roll a natural 20. But the check is resolved as if you did.

Basically, if you had a power like this for saves, they'd auto-succeed because that's resolving the saving throw as though you rolled a 20, but I would read the mythic power as proccing only when you actually throw a piece of plastic and get a 20.

[seebs]

To put it another way:

Taking 20 lets you resolve a check as though you'd rolled a 20, but no one's gonna let you do a "when you roll a natural 20" ability on that.

Look at it this way. Say you're in a gaming group where there's a rule that someone takes a picture any time someone rolls a natural 20. You would not expect people to take a picture of the zero dice that were rolled when you use this ability to resolve a check as though you had rolled a natural 20.

[PathlessBeth]

If people are worried about balance, realize that what this does is allow you, for the steep cost of two path abilities, at around ECL 25, to mimic a 4th level spell. It is really not very powerful at all. This is a capstone ability for a stealth character, and it gives them something at level 20/MT 10 that a non-mythic wizard had at level 7. It is incredibly weak.

But yes, based on how it is worded, I would say that "treat the check as if you rolled a natural 20" means that you are assumed to have rolled a 20 on the check. Which is what supreme trickster requires to trigger. So yea, it works. Of course its still not very potent, but it at least gives the poor rogue a little at (effective) level 25.

[The_Hanged_Man]

137ben wrote:

This is a capstone ability for a stealth character, and it gives them something at level 20/MT 10 that a non-mythic wizard had at level 7. It is incredibly weak.

At high levels stealth is vastly better than invis as there is no easy way to defeat it. Invisibility can be defeated with low level spells, but there is no spell that automatically defeats stealth (or if there is let me know!). As far as I know all you can do is make perception checks, which may impossible against a ECL 25 stealth based character who can always take 20.

I still think the ability is appropriate though.

[Ulmaxes]

I believe the combo is definitely very powerful, but acceptable in its literal interpretation. The 10th tier ability itself is extremely limited; most rogues aren't going to be making a skill check every single round, whereas Archmages get multiple powerful boons including permanent Spell Resistance and the Fighter who gets 4+ chances a round to make his regen ability kick in.

You have to take 2 feats (the standard Stealthy being a very B-Class feat) to get to this, and it only happens 1/rnd. So if you're trying to use it to Snipe for example, it will only kick in once per round; you won't get to make very many attacks under the benefit of the ability.

[LazarX]

Ravingdork wrote:

From Mythic Adventures...

Supreme Trickster (Su): At 10th tier, whenever you make an attack roll against a non-mythic foe, that foe is treated as flat-footed, even if it has abilities that prevent it from being flat-footed. Once per round when you roll a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, you regain one use of mythic power.

...

Stealthy (Mythic)
Your grace and fluidity are beyond compare.
Prerequisite: Stealthy.
Benefit: The bonus on Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks from Stealthy increases by 2. In addition, you can expend one use of mythic power to treat an Escape Artist or Stealth check as if you had rolled a natural 20. You must decide to use this ability before making the roll.

So, provided there is a mythic foe nearby, could I always take 20 on the opposed Stealth check against him (since it generates new mythic points to replace those I've expended)?

Taking 20 is not the same as a natural 20 on the die roll. If you're taking 20, you're not making a die roll at all. For your standards, this is fairly pathetic.

[PathlessBeth]

LazarX wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

From Mythic Adventures...

Supreme Trickster (Su): At 10th tier, whenever you make an attack roll against a non-mythic foe, that foe is treated as flat-footed, even if it has abilities that prevent it from being flat-footed. Once per round when you roll a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, you regain one use of mythic power.

...

Stealthy (Mythic)
Your grace and fluidity are beyond compare.
Prerequisite: Stealthy.
Benefit: The bonus on Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks from Stealthy increases by 2. In addition, you can expend one use of mythic power to treat an Escape Artist or Stealth check as if you had rolled a natural 20. You must decide to use this ability before making the roll.

So, provided there is a mythic foe nearby, could I always take 20 on the opposed Stealth check against him (since it generates new mythic points to replace those I've expended)?

Taking 20 is not the same as a natural 20 on the die roll. If you're taking 20, you're not making a die roll at all. For your standards, this is fairly pathetic.

MA wrote:

ou can expend one use of mythic power to treat an Escape Artist or Stealth check as if you had rolled a natural 20.

It doesn't say 'take 20', though, it literally says to treat it as if you rolled a 20.

[seebs]

My mental model of what's happening:

Check (usually) calls for a roll. Some powers allow you to skip the roll and use a value instead. If you roll a die, and get a 20, you have gotten a natural 20. Some powers or effects might trigger "when you roll a natural 20". If you do not roll a die, those powers and effects never trigger, because you never rolled anything. Instead, you inserted a result.

Once you have a number, from whatever source, you resolve the check using the number. Some checks will have special effects if you rolled a natural 20, and these *will* be affected by, say, a power which specifies that you treat the check as though you had rolled a natural 20, because the resolution of the check itself is the thing affected by the power.

Basically, my reading is that the "treat the check as though you rolled a natural power" behavior kicks in AFTER the point at which you evaluate things like "if you roll a natural 20".

[Halfling Barbarian]

It's powerful in that it retains your stealth indefinitely. However, it only makes sniping with one shot per round viable at mythic tier 10. Something that isn't very viable until that point. Although I smell some sort of vital strike build coming on...

[LazarX]

If you're not making an actual die roll, then you can't have a "natural 20". You can have an "effective 20" which is what you get by using the power but the two are not the same.

A natural 20 is a 20 you get by rolling a physical die.

The result of said dice is totally contained in the effects of that one power. You might find a GM that will allow you to exploit this to engage another power, but I'm not that GM, and I suspect that Raving Dork isn't either.

[The_Hanged_Man]

LazarX wrote:

If you're not making an actual die roll, then you can't have a "natural 20".

However, they don't say in feat "as if you had a result of 20."

They used "as if you had rolled a natural 20", which specifically added the words "rolled" and "natural". IMO this makes the intent fairly clear, by RAW at least, that it is a rolled natural 20.

[LazarX]

The_Hanged_Man wrote:

LazarX wrote:

If you're not making an actual die roll, then you can't have a "natural 20".

However, they don't say in feat "as if you had a result of 20."

They used "as if you had rolled a natural 20", which specifically added the words "rolled" and "natural". IMO this makes the intent fairly clear, by RAW at least, that it is a rolled natural 20.

That's not the problem. I have absolutely no issue with someone using Supreme Trickster. They can have their effective 20 for use within that power. You pay your mythic point and you get your result.

I have major issues with someone exploiting Mythic Stealth to power it though.

[Ravingdork]

It's not an exploit. It's the rule. (Apparently.)

[BiggDawg]

RAW it works. The powers clearly state that you treat the result as if you rolled a natural 20 which is the exact wording of the Mythic Stealth power. People using semantics for the natural 20 wording may be operating under RAI, but RAW it is clear and should work.

It is a Mythic Tier 10 ability so in no way is this overpowered. Yes stealth can be hard to deal with if you have the ability to remove the observed condition and have some cover (which there are several ways to do). In the end though shouldn't the maxed out demi-god of stealth be really good at sneaking.

[Dragonamedrake]

Seriously? How can it be more plain.

You treat an Escape Artist or Stealth check as if you had rolled a natural 20.

Yes it works. No it isnt cheese. Its not even that powerful. You might not like it. But there really isnt an argument. You treat the check as if you rolled a natural 20... there is no expection. No caveat. No stipulations, conditions, or limitations. In all ways treat the check as if you literally picked up a D20 and rolled a 20. Its pretty straight forward.

[Adamantine Dragon]

Ravingdork wrote:

It's not an exploit. It's the rule. (Apparently.)

If it is a "rule" that is acting differently than the designers intended, resulting in a balance threatening advantage, that's what makes using it an "exploit."

Doing something OTHER than the rule as written is either a "house rule" or "cheating."

[Ulmaxes]

Adamantine, I agree with your definition. However, if this /is/ a valid interpretation of the rules, then it's fine. I think we've reached a point in the discussion where we need direct Dev input.

[blackbloodtroll]

If it somehow doesn't suck, and is actually effective, it will be called "cheese" or something similar, by anyone whose colon is currently burning.

Even, with Mythic.

[Scavion]

I think it's hilarious when people see something that might be a benefit to stealth based characters and they go ape crazy on it. Its bad enough till that point that we have to reroll our stealth checks every time you ask. Not to mention all the hoops you have to jump through to obtain true stealth.

[blackbloodtroll]

Apply cream.

[Ravingdork]

When it works, stealth is the most powerful defense in the game. Design any epic/mythic 20th-level character you want. Now have him try and find and kill a 20th-level ninja with super high stealth modifiers.

Odds are you'll fail.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ninja?

Ranger can use stealth better at that level.

[Ravingdork]

A ninja cannot be detected by any means. Tremorsense, scent, blindsight, nothing can find her.

Ranger can't do that.

[Akasharose]

I have to side with those who debunk this as an infinite loop.

As a GM my call would be that by using your mythic point (which per the last line you are choosing to use before you roll) you are choosing NOT to roll.

You cannot take advantage of the Su trickster ability in this case, as it only applies when you choose to roll (per its last line "when you roll").

Not a loop. Nice try though ... and as a GM I always enjoy players trying to sneak past me.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Isn't there a similar feat for Perception?

Could two tricksters spend eternity making Perception/Stealth checks versus each other without spending any point?

[Dragonamedrake]

Akasharose wrote:

I have to side with those who debunk this as an infinite loop.

As a GM my call would be that by using your mythic point (which per the last line you are choosing to use before you roll) you are choosing NOT to roll.

You cannot take advantage of the Su trickster ability in this case, as it only applies when you choose to roll (per its last line "when you roll").

Not a loop. Nice try though ... and as a GM I always enjoy players trying to sneak past me.

Which is fine... You would be the GM. But that would still be a house rule. As written it works. "As if you rolled a natural 20". It cant get much clearer. Either way, I dont find it that broken.

Your using TWO mythic abilities to be really sneaky. Thats it. Compared to other Mythic abilities this is tame.

[PathlessBeth]

Akasharose wrote:

I have to side with those who debunk this as an infinite loop.

As a GM my call would be that by using your mythic point <snip>

As a GM, you can house rule however you want, but I'd just like to point out that this alleged 'infinite loop' cannot possibly be infinite, since you need to spend two uses of mythic power per round.

[bbangerter]

137ben wrote:

Akasharose wrote:

I have to side with those who debunk this as an infinite loop.

As a GM my call would be that by using your mythic point <snip>

As a GM, you can house rule however you want, but I'd just like to point out that this alleged 'infinite loop' cannot possibly be infinite, since you need to spend two uses of mythic power per round.

Please reread the original question and the abilities involved, and count how many of them require using a mythic point and how many of them restore a mythic point.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ravingdork wrote:

A ninja cannot be detected by any means. Tremorsense, scent, blindsight, nothing can find her.

Ranger can't do that.

Yes, they can.

[ArmouredMonk13]

This is a weak power. It works and isn't OP.

[Bardic Dave]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

A ninja cannot be detected by any means. Tremorsense, scent, blindsight, nothing can find her.

Ranger can't do that.

Yes, they can.

That's a pretty nifty trick blackblood, but a ninja's capstone ability is simply complete immunity to detection. Pretty tough to beat that.

At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool.

[Scavion]

Bardic Dave wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

A ninja cannot be detected by any means. Tremorsense, scent, blindsight, nothing can find her.

Ranger can't do that.

Yes, they can.

That's a pretty nifty trick blackblood, but a ninja's capstone ability is simply complete immunity to detection. Pretty tough to beat that.

At 20th level, a ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 3 ki points from her ki pool.

Its a limited use ability vs *Almost* complete undetectability 24/7

[Ravingdork]

How long do you need to stay stealthed to stick a knife in someone's back?

Scent or any number of other abilities will detect your ranger as he approaches, but not the ninja.

[Scavion]

Ravingdork wrote:

How long do you need to stay stealthed to stick a knife in someone's back?

Scent or any number of other abilities will detect your ranger as he approaches, but not the ninja.

Not Long.

Oil of Negate Aroma.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ravingdork wrote:

How long do you need to stay stealthed to stick a knife in someone's back?

Scent or any number of other abilities will detect your ranger as he approaches, but not the ninja.

Still not worth being a Ninja.

[BiggDawg]

For some added perspective this is a level 20 Ninja / Mythic Tier 10 Trickster we are talking about. This is literally a demi god of stealth and it only works when another mythic creature is nearby and all it does is effectively give you a 20 on your roll so the same contribution that invisibility grants.