I'm making a ninja 1 / oracle 1 , assassin.
The concept is she wears no armor (because she uses her high dex + the oracles "mage armor") and has no visible weapons because she uses the ancestral weapon ability from oracle.
So basically I want to come up behind people while summoning a dagger out of thin air, slice a throat open, and then let the dagger dissapear.
Summoning the ancestral weapon is a standard action.. so how does this work with surprise round? Do I just get to summon the weapon and bam surprise is over?
Please help me understand
P.s. I took the deaf curse so she can silent spell all her spells.. had to gloat :3
Yes, during the surprise round you get either a std or move action.
"The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round."
Now also,if your Init is high enuf and you go before them, they will still be flat-footed on Round 1, after you get your surprise round action on what most of us call "round 0".
Moving up next to them may not even be part of Initiative, assuming you have a decent Bluff and they have a low Sense Motive. Or if you have a decent Stealth and they have a low Perc.
So, before Init is even rolled, you may be able to move next to them. Then, on R0 "Surprise!" you "pull" your weapon, and hopefully on R1 you Sneak attack them. Mind you, an extra D6 may not lead to "slice a throat open". Why not use a wakizashi, which at least has a decent crit range?
Interestingly enough there is no action listed for summoning your weapon. However most likely it would be a standard action to summon it.
You've got the right idea, you summon your blade and that's your surprise round.
Can only pull out martial or simple weapons with it.
Does the scenario change at all if they know I'm there but don't know I'm a threat? Can I use sleight of hand to postpone initiative till I've striked?
Does the scenario change at all if they know I'm there but don't know I'm a threat? Can I use sleight of hand to postpone initiative till I've striked?
No, once you have initiated combat, you're in Combat. You can never hit before Init. A generous DM may allow you to pull your weapon before init is rolled.
Ask your DM, I'd certainly allow a Ninja to have a Waki as a ancestral weapon.
Ok assuming I can get him to agree to it..
What about the On Guard trait?
Lets you draw a weapon during surprise round as a free action.
Activations of most abilities that can be activated default to atandard action.
It really would not be hard to pull off this concept using sleight of hand and say, a dagger. There are even some feats for it. However, using Ancestral Weapon seems, IMO, like you're throwing away your best chance to make a surprise strike against the enemy. It seems like a needless ability that only hampers your character.
Using On Guard or Quickdraw would allow you to draw a weapon. It would not allow you to summon one with Ancestral Weapon though. That is still a standard action, and it always will be.
This is why doing this with a knife and On Guard/ Quick Draw is much more reasonable.
Needless? See that makes me upset...
Anything that furthers character thematic is important! Sure I could just carry a dagger and pull it out to stab people? But that's not the theme... the theme is that this is just a nice alchemist/healer who couldn't POSSIBLY the assassin cause she doesn't carry weapons or even wear armor, all we've seen her do is heal.
So no gameplay wise it doesn't work well.. but storytelling > rule lawyering right?. She's got flavor.. not just a few extra d6's...
IMO I don't think draw weapon = start combat. Summoning the weapon would take place outside of combat. Though it would give the target a perception roll to see your weapon, and if they did that could start the combat. Otherwise the attack would be the start of combat.
would an invisible dagger kept in a Glove of Storing work ? keep the Ancestral when you have the extra time
E6 campaign.. every level and feat is extremely important..
The issue here is drawing a weapon or summoning one initating combat?
I think if someone is aware of you yes.. I think if they aren't aware then no combat would start at round 0 on ur attack.
For instance ur a sniper in a hidey hole watching your target.. you draw your bow...
THAT was your surprise round? Why? The enemy is still unaware so why move to round 1
Obviously lol but my first question was can I walk up behind someone while summoning my weapon and slice thweir throat open as part of my surprise round..
Basically the answer I believe is yes if u pass stealth vs their perception
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The issue is that activating the power to retrieve the weapon is probably a standard action, and the attack to slice the throat is also a standard action. You only get one move or standard action in the surprise round.
If you have the weapon in hand before the surprise round, the target will likely get a perception check to notice. If they make it, there might not be a surprise round, as they would be aware of you.
Have you thought about the Improved Unarmed Strike feat? Then you don't even need to draw a weapon, you are the weapon.
I think this is a misinterpretation of the rules.
I dont think the rules were intended in such a way as any action constitutes a surprise round.
If no one is aware of a threat.. why do we start going into surprise round with any action?
I cast mage armor in a crowded street, was that the surprise round? Is everyone to roll initiative because I took an action?
When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
My interpretation is that combat doesnt begin when one side is aware and the other is not if no action is taken that would make an enemy aware.
Your opinion on HOW I wish to play an assassin is unwarranted, this is a rules thread, im debating the surprise round rule and its meaning.
You don't seem to understand, there is no facing in Pathfinder. It's not possible to summon an Ancesteral Weapon when your victim can not see it 'because you are behind him'. That's not the way the rules work -and as you said, this is a rules question-.
He would see you, and he would then become aware of you as a threat. The moment that happens, there wouldn't be a surprise round anymore, you'd go straight into normal initiative.
Like I was trying to explain earlier, it's super easy to hide a knife in your clothing, your concept still works just fine. Your guy couldn't possibly be an assassin because he's not wearing armor or carrying a weapon. Then bam, he pulls a knife nobody knew he had and attacks somebody.
So if thats the case without invisibility there is no actual "stealth kill"?
So if thats the case without invisibility there is no actual "stealth kill"?
We've always played it that you can draw your weapon with a Stealth check. I wouldn't see the problem with doing it that way with Ancestral Weapon, standard action or no, though it's up to the GM how ostentatious such an ability is. Even if "combat begins", if they don't see you, they aren't going to do anything differently.
Edit: That should have been Sleight of Hand.
Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by that term. There's plenty of ways to kill without arousing suspicion.
Poisoning their drink, for one. I suspect that's not what you're looking for.
If you wanted to use a weapon you could hide a weapon inside a Glove of Storing. Getting a weapon out of the Glove of Storing is a free action. So you could walk up to a guy, and initiate combat. He's not aware you are a threat because you have no weapon drawn, so there is a surprise round.
You'd draw your weapon as a free action from the glove, and then use a standard action that you get during the surprise round to attack. You'd have to be right next to him for this to work.
I'm reading the gloves description and although strange, I see no reason that you couldn't summon an Ancesteral Weapon and then put it into the glove. You'd just have to make sure you were able to make your attack before the Ancesteral Weapon's duration expired, and you'd have to actually summon the weapon and put it in the glove somewhere where people couldn't see you.
If you wanted something more mundane, you make a sort of "stealth kill" by using stealth. You would have your weapon drawn and be relying on him not seeing you in the first place. For example, you could hide behind a wall right next to a doorway as the nobleman enters a room. He'd make a perception and you'd roll stealth. If you beat him, you can attack as he moves through the door as your action in the surprise round. He would have to literally walk right next to you for this to work though.
If you wanted to be further away, -you're hiding in the bushes as the nobleman walks down the road- its way harder. Theoretically this is possible, you'd make stealth opposed by his perception as before. Theoretically you could take a partial charge and attack him during a surprise round.
In practice however, this is difficult to do. You can not make a charge through difficult terrain, and you must have a straight line to your target. In other words, this is practically impossible to do from any sort of cover which counts as difficult terrain so that you can't charge. If you try to go the concealment route, you'd have to be able to see him somehow where he can't see you back. Darkness and Darkvision would be a possibility of how you might pull this off.
Invisibility, however, is indeed a very easy way to do this, which your ninja can get access to easily with Vanishing Trick.
Id hate to play in your campaigns
Id hate to play in your campaigns
Heh, it is open to interpretation. In some worlds, using Ancestral Weapon may require your eye turning white, visible souls rushing from the heavens down into your hand, and a ghostly blade appearing with a crash of thunder. In others, you concentrate for about four seconds and the blade just appears. I'd leave it to the character's flavor and let them Sleight it, but awp832's interpretation is every bit as valid barring a rule stating otherwise.
They are correct though about "there is no behind" hence why simply being behind someone doesn't automatically let u do a sneak attack if there's no flanking going on without someone in font of them.
In my pqrty we do minis sometimes to combat and a player is playing a rogue and he has played wow for many years and its taking time for him to realize that sneak attacks are not back stabs lol.
E6 campaign.. every level and feat is extremely important..
Thus, you're no longer playing Pathfinder, you're playing another game, so just ask your DM. What "the rules' say are not the end-all-be-all as you're not really playing PF.
So, just ask your DM. Even if we come up with exact rulings and even get a dev to chime in, in the end what your DM sez goes. Mind you, this is also true to an extent in most home Pathfinder games (every DM has some houserules and interpretations) , so I am not entirely dissing E6 here. But since your DM is going off into serious houserules/varDy land here, then just get his ruling as our answers will mean little.
You should have told us this at the start.
I wanted to know for myself too... I like knowing the rules
You also seem to expect that getting in a steathy attack will automatically kill the victim ("slice a throat open"). However, this is not how it usually works in Pathfinder.
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A Ninja 1/Oracle 1 doesn't qualify for Assassin. If your group is waving the requirement, so be it.
You are looking for an stealth kill. The Assassin Death Attack ability is a stealth kill. You study the target for three rounds, then sneak attack, and on a failed Fort save, he dies.
Coup de grace has the potential to kill a helpless opponent, which isn't what you're talking about.
Your other options are to do enough damage to kill him. For a sneak attacker, the best you can do before an opponent can react is 1) a single attack in surprise, and 2) a full round attack of sneak attacks on successful initiative (fueled by high Dex and possibly feats and/or traits).
Your "slit his throat" desire can mechanically be handled by the Death Attack. The idea of walking up behind and slitting a throat otherwise isn't something that exists in the game other than as the flavor description of how you have killed him.
Approaching unaware in the game is handled by Stealth. Alternate ways of handling this might include things like a Bluff (I'm just a raincloud...)
It's a game. Games have rules. Coming to a rules forum to learn about the rules and making statements that you wouldn't want to play in someone's game because they've described how the rules work is kinda disrespectful to other posters, to the structure of the forums, and to the game itself. If you want the game to work differently, work with your GM to change the rules to do what you want.
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Regarding understanding the surprise round:
The basic idea of the surprise round is that if combat starts with someone being unaware, he is subject to at worst a standard action before entering into full rounds.
The 3.5 DMG had a fairly detailed description of how to handle surprise and initiative oddities, like a combatant joining the combat late. This was not open game content and neither made it into PF, nor did Paizo substitute rules to cover this. The result is a lack of RAW flexibility for how to handle some situations.
In 3.5, the method was that the surprising character(s) effectively could do stuff (one surprise round at a time, but multiple surprise rounds), until they were discovered. It is a good mechanism, and your group may want to adopt it.
If using the 3.5 mechanism, you can act repeatedly until your opponent is aware of you. Silent cast (if unobserved, still in surprise). Then study repeatedly. Then Death Attack to slit his throat. Alternately, Silent cast, then sneak in the surprise and hope to win init for additional attacks, flavored as cutting his throat.
Good Gaming!
Id hate to play in your campaigns
Then you'd hate to play pathfinder.
I never said a word about my campaigns though. You had a rules question, I told you the answer. I'm not your GM, I'm not responsible for tweaking things around so that you can pull off something cool. You asked the rules and I explained them, I even gave several suggestions of how you could keep your character concept and bring it in line with the rules on the surprise round. I feel you're being unreasonable because you found out you can't do exactly the thing you want. I'm sorry about that, but many of us here (myself included) have had to rework character concepts when we found out that the rules made our original idea impossible.
But this is the rules forum. If you want a sort of "vanishing ninja blade" thing going on, hop over to the advice forum and ask for help with your character. Tell them what you want to do and I'm sure they will come up with something legal that will allow you to do exactly what you want.
Excuse me but we are seeing multiple interpretations of these rules.
Just because YOU interpret the rules one way doesn't mean your right, your not the game designer. The point of this forum is RAI, pathfinder is to loose on terminology to be RAW like 3.5.
Being a rule lawyer at heart this frustrates me to no end having to take in multiple interpretations and present them to my DM instead of cold hard fact. I actually have this same exact thread going on another rule lawyering forum and they completely went in the other direction.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303454
Drop the attitude.. I dissagree with you, I understand your interpretation but after reviewing both sides I do not believe your interpretation simulates the combat experience intended for rogues.
No, sorry, he's right.
But again, you're playing in a game so heavily houseruled that even a Dev's opinion means nothing. Just ask your dm.
Why is he right and all the other DMs weighing in other side wrong?
Excuse me but we are seeing multiple interpretations of these rules.
Just because YOU interpret the rules one way doesn't mean your right, your not the game designer. The point of this forum is RAI, pathfinder is to loose on terminology to be RAW like 3.5.
Being a rule lawyer at heart this frustrates me to no end having to take in multiple interpretations and present them to my DM instead of cold hard fact. I actually have this same exact thread going on another rule lawyering forum and they completely went in the other direction.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303454
Drop the attitude.. I dissagree with you, I understand your interpretation but after reviewing both sides I do not believe your interpretation simulates the combat experience intended for rogues.
Dude. It's actually you that's being argumentative. Bottom line is that the rules don't support your desired roleplay.
Initiative is rolled when any party declares to the DM that their character is going to commit a hostile act. Summoning a weapon is a hostile act, which demands Initiative be rolled. Because your target is unaware they are about to be attacked, your character gets to act in the surprise round. That action will be the weapon-summoning. This is exactly the same as a wizard declaring "Wizzo is done negotiating and casts fireball on the delegates." That spell is Wizzo's surprise-round action. With high enough Initiative, Wizzo may get to follow up with something else.
You can repeat the homily that "roleplay is greater than rules" and you can call anyone who actually tells you the rules "rule-lawyers" but doing so doesn't make it true. A player may request some bending of the rules in order to facilitate a character concept. The GM's job is to look at precedent and balance. Is there already an ability in the game that allows what the player is asking for, so that said ability can be "re-skinned"? Is what the player is asking for balanced compared to existing abilities? You can't just say "my roleplay is more important than the rules". It's not.
I'd suggest you take a look at the Quick Draw feat. It specifically calls out that using Sleight of Hand to draw a concealed weapon when you have QD becomes a move action instead of a standard action. Paizo has made it perfectly clear what they feel is a balanced action-economy to work with concealed weapons; a standard to draw unless you spend a feat, then it's a move.
Either way, you don't get to do hostile actions that can be observed outside of initiative. Barbarians don't get to draw their greataxes, wizards don't get to cast mage armor, bards don't get to start singing, archers don't get to dig out their monster-bane arrows and paladins don't get to summon their divine mounts. Nor does your assassin get to summon his weapon.
I mean, yeah, a guy who gets to - you know - kill his enemies before they see it coming and nobody is ever the wiser, that's an awesome character concept. It's almost as good as the one I thought of last night where there's this guy who is immune to weapon damage, spells, and knows the future. Well, maybe not almost. But your concept is still imbalanced.
Look... invest in Dex and Improved Initiative and there's a good chance your character will get to draw his weapon and attack while folks are flat-footed. He won't get to kill them very often since typical combat lasts four rounds, but hey, this is your idea, not mine.
Were not debating observed actions were debating if unobserved can I draw a weapon without
Starting round 0.
And I hate to bring sex into this but I can't STAND being called dude.
Now as I understand pathfinder doesn't have facing so even if I were behind said opponent and opponent was alone I couldn't roll a stealth check vs perception to stay out of combat rounds.
But changing the scenario to me walking behind someone in a hallway, ignoring the facing issue my argument is that if I summoned my blade I should be able to SOH vs perception to remain out of initiative 0 until I actually stab him.
I have yet to see anyone quote what "When combat begins" actually means. As far as I'm concerned all of your RAWs are bullocks until you answer in raw what constitues combat. Because if drawing your weapon when the enemy can't see it and doesn't know what your doinh ISNT combat.. your RAW is wrong.
Ahh I have some interest in this situation and a bit of perspective being the DM in question.
I handle surprise round as everyone who isnt surprised gets a full turn and then we roll initiative. Its easier that way i find and the RAW version makes surprise less valuable then I like it to be.
Then our OP has his answer, yeah? Petition you for the equivalent of Quick Draw that works with his supernatural ability. Or a ruling that QD itself will apply.
on the actual throat slitting topic we're all still 2nd level, 2d6 could conceivably do it to an equal CR enemy, and if it dropped them to within a point or two i would probably just handwave it for the cool factor, which I find more valuable to a game then playing Raw with a HP or two.
Reasonable. This is the sort of thing where cinematics and storytelling trumps rules. I suspect we've all done it; the bad guy with one or two bonus hit points so he survives one more round because it makes for a more heroic ending, or one or two missing hit points for the same reason.
However we have a houserule we've been using so far with our stealthy ranger where if you sneak up on someone and they are totally unaware of you and your in melee range (not movement range, melee) when the surprise round starts then with an appropriate weapon you can make a combat maneuver check to use a coup de grace on the target. And I use massive damage rules.
Ouchies. So. Does this happen to your players as well? Because... wow. This is highly broken. I can think of a bunch of low-level builds that'd murder pretty much everything they come across. Silent Spell feat, true strike, a sorcerer with a (non-proficient) scythe, a bunch of ranks in Stealth, and add invisibility... say goodbye to pretty much every BBEG ever who isn't specifically set up to obviously block it. And it's a good thing you're doing E6 or else a bunch of amusing dimension door tactics would open up. Oooooo! Wait. Cleric with the travel domain and dimensional hop. Slap invisibility on him and watch the King's head just... fall off.
I mean, whatever works in your game, but I hope you've thought about stuff like this because powerful house rules have two downfalls: 1} players can exploit them and 2} enemies should exploit them but mysteriously don't because... reasons?
Were not debating observed actions were debating if unobserved can I draw a weapon without
Starting round 0.
Yes, you are. The actions required to do exactly that are: standard action using Sleight of Hand or move action if you also have Quick Draw. Otherwise you cannot* draw a weapon unobserved.
*Cannot: obviously if you are in a different room, or invisible, or otherwise concealed we are talking about a different scenario. If your target can see you and you draw a weapon, that action occurs in combat because it is a combat action. Thus initiative is rolled BEFORE the action is completed.
And I hate to bring sex into this but I can't STAND being called dude.
Do you? On the Internet, on a forum, where people use aliases all day long as gender cues are non-existent or frequently misleading? That must seriously suck, as far as idiosyncrasies go.
Perhaps foolishly assuming that the reason for the offense you took is that you are female, I'd encourage you to read the second sentence of the following:
Dude.
See, the choice of pronoun was deliberately chosen for two reasons. One: it's appropriate for both genders. Two: when spoken it's a non-hostile choice, typically evoking an attitude of laid-back address... friendly and non-confrontational. Californian, yeah?
So. Um. Do with that information what you will.
Now as I understand pathfinder doesn't have facing so even if I were behind said opponent and opponent was alone I couldn't roll a stealth check vs perception to stay out of combat rounds.
Correct. What you're trying to do is complicated and unfortunately will require a GM to interpret the intent of the rules. For instance, if you were asking me what would happen if your character tried Sleight of Hand to draw a concealed weapon and keep it concealed, I'd ask for that roll but FIRST make it very clear to you that should your concealment fail, your drawing would represent your action in a surprise round.
Mechanically, I would ask for your SoH roll, apply any "circumstance bonuses"* or penalties, then determine success or failure by looking at the opponent's Perception roll. If there was success, I would allow things to continue outside of combat. If there was failure, I would request initiative and there would be no surprise round played because you had already used that action.
*The rules encourage GMs to allow adjustments to DCs of various checks depending on "circumstances". Is the target deeply in concentration, trying to telepathically communicate with someone? Is the target already somewhat suspicious and paying close attention? These sorts of questions could impose a +2 or -2 modifier on your SoH roll. Players who set up clever circumstances get benefits. Players who attempt difficult tasks in difficult circumstances find it very difficult.
Note: walking behind someone who is the least bit suspicious will likely actually alarm them. It's an antisocial behaviour and it instinctively feels wrong. Most people don't like anyone close behind them unless there's a reason, like waiting in line at a store.
But changing the scenario to me walking behind someone in a hallway, ignoring the facing issue my argument is that if I summoned my blade I should be able to SOH vs perception to remain out of initiative 0 until I actually stab him.
'Fraid not. Drawing a weapon is a hostile act. A fighter can't do it outside of combat so neither can your oracle. That said, if the SoH check succeeds, then there's no need to proceed with combat, or initiative. I explained how I'd handle this above.
I have yet to see anyone quote what "When combat begins" actually means. As far as I'm concerned all of your RAWs are bullocks until you answer in raw what constitues combat. Because if drawing your weapon when the enemy can't see it and doesn't know what your doinh ISNT combat.. your RAW is wrong.
Combat begins when any participant starts being combative. Precisely, exactly what actions do or don't constitute that are the responsibility of a GM to adjudicate. Simply moving closer to a target could be all it takes, depending on... circumstances.
Don't forget that there's the whole Sense Motive issue to deal with. Does your opponent notice something in the tone of voice that suggests you've had enough of their drivel? Does the King react to your approach in fear? Does your body-language give you away?
See, there are all these rules in place pretty much specifically to make assassination and stealth murders very difficult. It's out of balance, really. Because as I've said to your DM, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Bad guys should be using the same rules good guys are.
Incidentally, RAW what should happen is this:
Oracle: I draw my weapon using SoH.
DM: Okay, well, everyone roll for initiative. And Oracle, give me that SoH roll please.
Oracle: Random high number.
DM: Great, you spend the surprise round drawing your weapon. Nobody else notices, so nobody else acts. That brings us to the first normal round.
Then the DM goes down the initiative sheet, asking what people want to do. NPCs continue to act the way they had been (Sense Motive notwithstanding) and really, the Oracle's party-mates also get told to act in-character - which is to say ignorant that anything's happening.
At some point the Oracle does something observed, such as stuffing the blade in someone's throat, and people get to start acting INFORMED.
That's how it works, RAW.
But I find that awkward, because it could be two or three or fifteen rounds of going 'round the table asking the same question over and over again. "What does your barbarian do? Remember, she's ignorant that the oracle is up to anything." THAT is why I would do things differently. For speed of play because nothing would be different.
The hallway example:
But changing the scenario to me walking behind someone in a hallway, ignoring the facing issue my argument is that if I summoned my blade I should be able to SOH vs perception to remain out of initiative 0 until I actually stab him.
You can use Slieght of Hand vs Perception to hide your weapon. Then it is a hidden weapon. Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action without quickdraw. You can't have your weapon both drawn and hidden at the same time. That isn't how it works.
Since your GM is very generous with his house rules you could ask for Quickdraw to apply to your Ancesteral Weapon. If allowed, then combined with your GMs other hosue rule that lets you take a full round action during the surprise round... You could summon your Ancesteral Weapon in advance, hide it using sleight of hand, draw it as a move action during the surprise round with quickdraw, and attack with it during the surprise round as a standard action.
This is not RAW though. Again, this is the rules forum, we talk about what you can do according to the rules, not according to house rules. You also maybe should have mentioned your GM's house rule about full round actions in the surprise round in the original post.
I suggest that you go play Assasin's Creed on Xbox. it seems like more your kind of game.
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I have yet to see anyone quote what "When combat begins" actually means. As far as I'm concerned all of your RAWs are bullocks until you answer in raw what constitues combat. Because if drawing your weapon when the enemy can't see it and doesn't know what your doinh ISNT combat.. your RAW is wrong.
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At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round.
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There ya go. That is pretty much the entirety of the RAW on when combat starts, how to determine surprise, and what a surprise round in. Not very detailed and will not provide an answer to your satisfaction. The RAW text does not exist to give you the answers to your questions in the form that you demand.
In practice, initiative is rolled when the GM so decides; generally this is when a means of determining the precise sequence of events is important.
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This will be my last post in this thread. It's going nowhere, both quickly and in an unpleasant manner.
No, sorry, he's right.
But again, you're playing in a game so heavily houseruled that even a Dev's opinion means nothing. Just ask your dm.
E6 isnt really a big houserule. Its just a limitation of advancement past a certain point. Other then that it doesnt actually change the rules.
I use a bunch of variants myself but pretty much all of them popped up in Paizo books as options.
Umm, friend? Did you read your own post up there? The one that sez "I handle surprise round as everyone who isnt surprised gets a full turn and then we roll initiative. Its easier that way i find and the RAW version makes surprise less valuable then I like it to be. on the actual throat slitting topic we're all still 2nd level, 2d6 could conceivably do it to an equal CR enemy, and if it dropped them to within a point or two i would probably just handwave it for the cool factor, which I find more valuable to a game then playing Raw with a HP or two.
However we have a houserule we've been using so far with our stealthy ranger where if you sneak up on someone and they are totally unaware of you and your in melee range (not movement range, melee) when the surprise round starts then with an appropriate weapon you can make a combat maneuver check to use a coup de grace on the target."And, E6 cuts 70% of the game out. Pretty much the most drastic set of houserules I have seen since Arduin.
But anyway, your post back there proved my point 100%. Your two or three houserules on how you handle surprise are so at variance with RAW, there's no use us weighing in.
I am not saying your houserules are wrong, mind you. But that there's no use the OP asking *US* about the surprise round when he/she needs to be asking YOU.