I'm tickled to try out a Dwarf Rogue for my next PFS character and I need some advice. I have in mind a skirmisher- step in, hit the flank hard, step out (maybe)- and be a viable skill monkey. I have the core book and the PFS free sources allowed.
His stats so far are:
Str: 15 - Dex: 16 - Con: 14 - Int: 14 - Wis: 12 - Cha: 10
I'm wondering about the 10 Cha, since I wouldn't want to lose out on UMD even if it may take longer to come through compared to other builds. The trait "Dangerously Curious" is on his list. Or maybe I should forget about UMD?
I read on the forums about dipping a few levels in Barbarian. That looks like a fun mix but after what levels would that be recommended?
Thanx in advance!
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From the stats you've picked out, I have:
Str (7 points), Dex (10 points), Con (2 points), Int (5 points), Wis (0 points), Cha (2 points).
How are you getting a 26 point-buy?
If you plan to dip a level of barbarian, it would behoove you to make it the character's first, as you'll come out of it with more hit points. I would recommend this:
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 6
If you have access to Ultimate Campaign, there's a trait that lets UMD work off your intelligence instead of your charisma, so you could keep the skill high that way.
Gah! I messed up on the point buy. Thanks for spotting that!
Sadly, I don't have Ultimate Campaign.
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Sadly, you are working uphill to get UMD on a dwarf. How about this:
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10?
Barb 1 Power Attack
Rogue 2
Rogue 3 Skill Focus: UMD, Weapon Training [Weapon Focus: two-handed weapon of choice]
Rogue 4
Rogue 5 Bleeding Attack, Extra Rage
At level 3 that's +9 to UMD, and by high levels you can auto-succeed on most wands and scrolls with the help of a circlet of persuasion.
Level 11 with full ranks would come out to +23, and with Skill Mastery you could take 10 and automatically fake a score of 18 in any mental stat.
Another option is a level of Fighter rather than Barbarian...2 less skill points but a bonus feat and heavy armor proficiency.
A sneak attacking dwarf in Full plate with a greataxe would be cool.
Ok, so a traitless, cha-based UMD bogs him down somewhat. What I wonder is if the ability make up for it, or is that effort better spent on making him a better flanker/skill monkey?
Fighter sounds good, but wouldn't heavy armor negate your evasion? Or is the tradeoff on the level?
Never though about Lore Warden.
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I think barbarian is better than fighter. Fast movement is a better class feature than Heavy Armour Proficiency, and it brings the slow dwarf up to regular speed.
I don't think lore warden is proper for a dwarf either. Sticking in light armour just for a few extra skill points? Remember, OP was thinking of a dip, not a true multiclass.
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If you are really thinking of doing wand usage. Take one or two levels of ranger. This will give you access to healing wands with out UMD. The second level of ranger is for the combat style feet. In truth the cost in point buy is to high for dwarfs to get a good cha just to use some skills.
Your base build is good idea. This is how I built my Ranger/Rogue(Bandit) for PFS. It might give you a idea. Many people will tell you not to go with two weapon fighting. However I like two weapon fighting so that's how I built him. I will be getting a Wis boost item to use his ranger spells.
Dwarf
Ranger 6 / Rogue Bandit 6 (Currently Ranger 2. Then will be talking my first two levels of rogue. Then finishing out my ranger levels. All other level will be Rogue.)
Str 17 (13)(All level bonus points here)
Dex 16 (10)
Con 16 (5)
Int 8 (-2)
Wis 10 (-2)
Cha 5 (-4)
Traits
Glory of Old (Five Kings Mountains)
Defensive Strategist (Worship Torag)
Feet's:
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: Ranger Combat Style: Double Slice
3: Toughness
4: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Step Up
5: Following Step
7: Combat Reflexes
8: Ranger Combat Style: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: Step Up and Strike
10: Rogue Talent: Trap Spotter
11: Improved Critical Dwarven Axe
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With all the advice about how to get better in combat, I thought I should mention a few things if you are still excited about being a dwarven rogue...
Some important notes to consider:
- UMD is already on the Rogue skill list. Do not bother with a trait.
- A CHA penalty is not the end of your viability for UMD. Just use your other bonus stats to help compensate for point loss. You get a lot of feats (combat feats from Rogue Trick at level 2+...) so you can acquire Skill Focus if you feel like you must.
- Scout archetype gives you Sneak Attack for moving ten feet or more. If you want to fade in and fade out, this is a very good option.
- Two weapons are legitimately difficult. You'll have to overcome some serious accuracy issues with your sub-par BAB. I used to believe that, with a full round sneak attack option it was still better, but after a few discussions I have come to accept it's kind of inferior.
- An Agile enchanted finesse weapon wielded two hands can do significant damage and not lose on the accuracy, it also allows you to maximize your damage bonus and accuracy from one stat (your favorite stat) and can improve combat performance.
- Every level you dip is a reduction on Sneak Attack, which is your primary damage source. You can eschew Sneak Attack for other class options, but think over what your giving up before you commit to do so.
- You mentioned skill-monkey. If you really want to go that route, you'll need to embrace the idea that you won't be combat optimized. You can still be very effective in battle, but make sure you keep in mind that battle impact is not your primary goal.
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I think going dwarf on season 5 is a smart move. I'm looking at various options as well. But I will offer a different build than those presented.
1. Feats - combat reflexes, dodge, mobility, spring attack, Com Ex, Imp Feint
2. Talents - trap spotter, greater feint, fast stealth, minor magic (acid splash), major magic (true strike), adv talent dispelling strike.
Another option is improved evasion (replace magic talents)
Another option is Crippling strike (replace magic talents)
3. Weapons - spear, heavy pick, warhammer.
4. Skills - bluff, stealth, dis device, perception, dance (2), UMD, others as you like.
5. Progression Rogue 11, shadow dancer 1 (stick it into character level 7)
Tactic - spring in (preferably from stealth) land a hit, spring out (back into stealth). You can go full speed due to fast stealth. Optimally when enlarged to gain the extra reach. Bring out the combat reflexes whenever convenient to gain additional attacks. Its even more convenient combined with a friendly wizard's improved invisibility (or do it yourself as a ninja) Use UMD for various helpful wands. Debuff the enemy with dispelling strike.
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An Agile enchanted finesse weapon wielded two hands can do significant damage and not lose on the accuracy, it also allows you to maximize your damage bonus and accuracy from one stat (your favorite stat) and can improve combat performance.
Agile does not allow you to get bonus damage from DEX for being wielded two-handed. Just wanted to make sure that was out there. You can get the bonus damage from Power Attack though.
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Agile does not allow you to get bonus damage from DEX for being wielded two-handed. Just wanted to make sure that was out there. You can get the bonus damage from Power Attack though.An Agile enchanted finesse weapon wielded two hands can do significant damage and not lose on the accuracy, it also allows you to maximize your damage bonus and accuracy from one stat (your favorite stat) and can improve combat performance.
You are correct. I was not very clear and I thank you for pointing that out. A number of finesse weapons cannot be wielded in two hands, either, which is another detriment. However, without Dervish Dance there are not many options for adding Dex to damage. Saving point investments and focusing on one stat, then picking up Power Attack makes this a very good return.
I currently am playing a Dwarven Ranger[Trapper]
You could--if you wanted--dip 2 levels in that and go rogue the rest of the way.
Have you got your character made? I'm just wondering how it turned out.
Sorry, haven't had the time to work on it. Also, I just found out the group already has a rogue, so if I make one he won't be in this session.
Many thanks to everyone for all the great advice!