Can anyone explain how this would work because my friend used it in a game today and we're all confused.
1) According to Spell Combat we only get 1 touch spell per full attack so thats only 1 Vampiric touch per round right?
I don't see where spell combat says this. The description for spell combat doesn't use the word "touch" at all.
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Spell combat and spellstrike are 2 different things.
Spell combat allow you to cast a spell while wielding and using a weapon as part of a full round action.
It don't bar you from casting a quickened spell so you can conceivally cast 2 spells in one round.
spellstrike allow you to deliver a touch spell through your weapon, converting the free touch attack of the touch spell in a free weapon attack.
If the spell allow for multiple touches (vampiric touch don't allow that) you can try to deliver the spell touches with each weapon attack you make.
Does it seem to anybody else that people just make up how the magus' abilities work?
Grick, who is much more patient and helpful to others than I am, created this very useful guide for folks who either don't feel like actually reading the rules in Ultimate Magic or can't wrap their heads around what's written.
Please read it. It's well written and correct.
It is mostly that people use "spell combat" when meaning "spellstike" and often speak of the two as if they were a single ability.
There's that. There's also the strange addition of limits (quote: Omnitricks= According to Spell Combat we only get 1 touch spell per full attack [ultra vide]) that lead me to guess that many players' and GMs' knowledge and understanding of Spell Combat and Spellstrike (and who knows what other rules!?!?) come from somebody else's poor explanation and no fact-checking or rereading.
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If a caster confirms a critical hit with a touch spell, the touch spell deals double damage. If a 12th level Magus crits with Vampiric Touch, he will be rolling 6d6 twice. The 10d6 cap just means that a 22nd level Magus wouldn't get 11d6.
So, your Magus friend has lots of options:
1) he can cast Vampiric Touch and try to touch his target. So long as he hits the target's touch AC, the spell deals damage. If he rolls a natural 20, and then rolls to confirm, the spell deals double damage.
2) he can cast Vampiric Touch and try to deliver it via a Spellstrike. He rolls to hit his target's regular AC, and if he does he rolls his weapon damage + spell damage. If the weapon has a crit range of 19-20, and he hit with a natural 19, he can roll to confirm. If he does, the spell still only deals double damage, regardless of what the critical multiplier of the weapon is.
3) he can declare Spell Combat as a Full Round Action and cast Vampiric Touch using either method #1 or method #2. In addition, either before or after casting his spell, he can perform all of his iterative attacks in order. Spell Combat is like two-weapon fighting, with your off-hand being used to cast a spell instead of wielding a weapon. If you friend has a Base Attack Bonus of +6, he could Attack/Attack/Cast or Cast/Attack/Attack, but not Attack/Cast/Attack.
Once your friend hits with Vampiric Touch, it is expended. If he misses, he can "hold the charge" until he does hit. If he used Method #2 on the first round, and missed, he can't switch to Method #1 on the following round (and vice versa). Hopefully he isn't getting more than one use of Vampiric Touch with each casting, but it may appear that way because Magi are capable of "recalling" spells they've already cast.
Hope that helps!
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With Vampiric Touch the damage dealt and Temp HP gained are the same. So a level twelve Magus rolls 6d6 when he hits. Lets say the 6d6 roll turns out to be 20. So the creature hit takes 20 points of damage and the Magus gains 20 temp HP's. If the Magus had crit with the attack then the dice are doubled to 12d6.
If a caster confirms a critical hit with a touch spell, the touch spell deals double damage. If a 12th level Magus crits with Vampiric Touch, he will be rolling 6d6 twice. The 10d6 cap just means that a 22nd level Magus wouldn't get 11d6.
So, your Magus friend has lots of options:
1) he can cast Vampiric Touch and try to touch his target. So long as he hits the target's touch AC, the spell deals damage. If he rolls a natural 20, and then rolls to confirm, the spell deals double damage.
2) he can cast Vampiric Touch and try to deliver it via a Spellstrike. He rolls to hit his target's regular AC, and if he does he rolls his weapon damage + spell damage. If the weapon has a crit range of 19-20, and he hit with a natural 19, he can roll to confirm. If he does, the spell still only deals double damage, regardless of what the critical multiplier of the weapon is.
3) he can declare Spell Combat as a Full Round Action and cast Vampiric Touch using either method #1 or method #2. In addition, either before or after casting his spell, he can perform all of his iterative attacks in order. Spell Combat is like two-weapon fighting, with your off-hand being used to cast a spell instead of wielding a weapon. If you friend has a Base Attack Bonus of +6, he could Attack/Attack/Cast or Cast/Attack/Attack, but not Attack/Cast/Attack.
Once your friend hits with Vampiric Touch, it is expended. If he misses, he can "hold the charge" until he does hit. If he used Method #2 on the first round, and missed, he can't switch to Method #1 on the following round (and vice versa).
This was well a very well written example. I do have an issue with not being able to switch delivery methods though. I had assumed that once you were holding a charge you could switch hit, choosing to either make a touch attack or a spellstrike at the time of each attack, until the charge(s) were discharged. Did I miss something that says otherwise?
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This was well a very well written example. I do have an issue with not being able to switch delivery methods though. I had assumed that once you were holding a charge you could switch hit, choosing to either make a touch attack or a spellstrike at the time of each attack, until the charge(s) were discharged. Did I miss something that says otherwise?
Nefreet is not saying that you have to use your weapon, what he is saying is that after you have chosen to attack normal AC, you can't attack touch AC. You can still chose with each attack if using your hand or your weapon.
That can be important if you have a weapon with reach and your target has moved inside your reach.As Touch spell in combat say: "Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge." and "If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge." I think that you can choose if attacking touch or normal AC with each attack, but I am not 100% sure that my interpretation is right.
Also, it is generally agreed that temp HP from a single type of spell doesn't stack. So if you inflict 20 damage with Vampiric Touch on the first round, take no damage, then cast it again and inflict another 15 vampiric damage next round, you still only have 20 temporary HP.
Hmmm, which touch spells would allow a magus to deal damage with each attack [using spellstrike] during a round? I thought all of them are discharged when you hit and damage your foe for the first time?
Any spell that allow multiple attacks allow you to deliver each single touch via weapon. There's no point at which spellstrike let you think different. Aside vampiric touch, you can get multiple touch with Frostbite and chill touch, for example. Remember that according the faq, if you have such a spell active, you're holding the charge, so if you cast another spell you loseremaining touches.
This was well a very well written example. I do have an issue with not being able to switch delivery methods though. I had assumed that once you were holding a charge you could switch hit, choosing to either make a touch attack or a spellstrike at the time of each attack, until the charge(s) were discharged. Did I miss something that says otherwise?Nefreet is not saying that you have to use your weapon, what he is saying is that after you have chosen to attack normal AC, you can't attack touch AC. You can still chose with each attack if using your hand or your weapon.
That can be important if you have a weapon with reach and your target has moved inside your reach.As Touch spell in combat say: "Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge." and "If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge." I think that you can choose if attacking touch or normal AC with each attack, but I am not 100% sure that my interpretation is right.
I disagree.
We seem to agree that because spellstrike says "whenever a magus casts a spell...", the moment of casting the spell is the moment that the magus can choose to use his weapon to spellstrike. A magus that casts a touch spell and wants to deliver it as touch attack, but misses, cannot then make a spellstrike attack with the held charge, because the moment when he should have decided that ("whenever he casts...") is past.
My understanding of the third magus FAQ question is that if you do make a spellstrike attack with a spell you cast, but miss, you can spellstrike again with that spell, until you hit. There, too, we seem to agree.
However, I do not agree that a magus who chooses to spellstrike with a touch spell, but misses (or doesn't attack when casting the spell) cannot then change to doing a touch attack on a later round. I see no reason why not.
Indeed, the FAQ states "A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster." A normal spellcaster can make a touch attack when holding a charge, so the magus should, too.
So in short:
- When casting the spell, the magus decides if he wants to deliver it as touch attack or as spellstrike attack with a weapon.
- If he decided to do a touch attack, but misses, he cannot decide to do a spellstrike attack with the held charge later. (He can still deliver it with an unarmed strike or natural attack per the Core Rulebook rules, however).
- If he decided to do a spellstrike attack, but misses, he can repeat the spellstrike attack on later rounds, until he either hits or casts a different spell, which discharges the held charge harmlessly. Alternatively, he can also make later attacks with that held charge as touch attacks, just like a normal spellcaster.
Oh the temp hp does not stack? Anything in the rules you can point me to for that? :)
Its the same ruling about same modifiers not stacking. The one where it states if ya got a belt that gives ya 4 str and a necklace that gives u 2 str, u don't get 6 extra str, u only get the highest. Temp hp is a modifier and falls into the same ruling.
I disagree. The types of bonuses are clearly spelled out. Enchantment, insight, luck, ect. Since temp HP does not have any of these qualifiers then it is untyped.
Vampiric touch still wont stack with itself because of this though.
"Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source."
But it is important to point out the correct rule here. Because unless there is a FAQ or something I am unaware of temp HP for different sources stack.
The temp HP stacking thing is pretty unclear from the rules. But if a spell stacks with itself, you can summon lantern archons which can cast Aid at will and have them cast it on you every round until you have several hundred HP.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In
cases when two or more identical spells are operating
in the same area or on the same target, but at different
strengths, only the one with the highest strength
applies.
so here it states that if your using the same spell, only the one with highest strength will apply.
and if u are gaining them from different sources
"Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." they would apply.
but vamp touch doesn't stack on itself.
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The temp HP stacking thing is pretty unclear from the rules. But if a spell stacks with itself, you can summon lantern archons which can cast Aid at will and have them cast it on you every round until you have several hundred HP.
Temporary Hit Points: Do temporary hit point from the same source stack?
No. Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.This prevents a creature with energy drain (which grants the creature 5 temporary hit points when used) from draining an entire village of 100 people in order to gain 500 temporary hit points before the PCs arrive to fight it.
Temporary hit points from different sources (such as an aid spell, a use of energy drain, and a vampiric touch spell) still stack with each other.
—Pathfinder Design Team, Friday
I disagree.
We seem to agree that because spellstrike says "whenever a magus casts a spell...", the moment of casting the spell is the moment that the magus can choose to use his weapon to spellstrike. A magus that casts a touch spell and wants to deliver it as touch attack, but misses, cannot then make a spellstrike attack with the held charge, because the moment when he should have decided that ("whenever he casts...") is past.
My understanding of the third magus FAQ question is that if you do make a spellstrike attack with a spell you cast, but miss, you can spellstrike again with that spell, until you hit. There, too, we seem to agree.
However, I do not agree that a magus who chooses to spellstrike with a touch spell, but misses (or doesn't attack when casting the spell) cannot then change to doing a touch attack on a later round. I see no reason why not.
Indeed, the FAQ states "A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster." A normal spellcaster can make a touch attack when holding a charge, so the magus should, too.So in short:
- When casting the spell, the magus decides if he wants to deliver it as touch attack or as spellstrike attack with a weapon.
- If he decided to do a touch attack, but misses, he cannot decide to do a spellstrike attack with the held charge later. (He can still deliver it with an unarmed strike or natural attack per the Core Rulebook rules, however).
- If he decided to do a spellstrike attack, but misses, he can repeat the spellstrike attack on later rounds, until he either hits or casts a different spell, which discharges the held charge harmlessly. Alternatively, he can also make later attacks with that held charge as touch attacks, just like a normal spellcaster.
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier. See FAQ/Errata at right for more information.
Nothing in spellstrike says he is locked into that choice once made. He can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding. He is not required to.
Magus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
Emphasis mine.
The normal rules for touch spells is that a spellcaster with a held charge may continue to make touch attacks each round until the spell is discharged. Spellstrike gives the magus the option that he can deliver those charges through a melee weapon attack, but is never required to, and has no rules that ever lock him into a chosen option.
Spellstrike gives the magus the option that he can deliver those charges through a melee weapon attack, but is never required to, and has no rules that ever lock him into a chosen option.
Well, spellstrike does say that the magus has that choice "whenever" he casts the spell. FAQ expanded that to say that he may continue to spellstrike in following rounds if he misses. But the text seems to set the decision at the moment/round of casting the spell.
But I believe the question is not that relevant, and it would definitely be easier to remember if he can always decide to touch or spellstrike when attacking. I don't want to be to RAW there, as I see no balance concerns.