I was thinking of clerics getting hvy armor and tower shields, and having wis based channeling. Is that too much too ask? Clerics are almost as MAD as monks, and they don't turtle as well as they should...
They removed heavy armor proficiency in PF because it was too good in 3.5.
Well, it's time to retool. The playtest is done, and there are classes that are falling by the way side in terms of power level that can be fixed by little things.
Clerics are actually one of the stronger classes in pathfinder. That said, needing five stats is pretty lame and the lack of love in the skill department is pretty lame too.
You won't break the game if you give them heavy armor and martial weapons, nor if you give them 4+ skill points per level. Wisdom based channeling... I'm not so sure about. They're still hard capped at the start of things and they don't have to worry about DCs too often anyway, in my experience(short and not too extensive experience).
But the cleric isn't one of them. They are consistently one of the most powerful classes...
Ok, thanks for the input.
I wouldn't say the cleric needs a power bump. It's still one of the best classes in the game.
Sure, it has multiple ability scores that are relevant to different powers, but unlike a true MAD class, they don't /need/ to be good at all of their class features to rock. They only need wisdom, just about everything else is icing.
Channeling is better than turn undead ever was. If you need to sacrifice some melee ability to do it exceptionally well, that seems a fair trade to me. At any rate, I rarely see a high-level cleric take a swing at something, there's almost always something better a full-caster class could be doing.
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Clerics, Druids and Oracles break a pattern of character class design.
Usually you have
+1 base attack bonus d10 hit dice Paladin/ranger spell progression
+1/3 base attack bonus D8 hit dice Bard/alchemist/inquisitor/magus spell progression
+1/2 Base attakc bonus d6 hi dice Wizard/ Sorcerer/ Witch spell progression
The Cleric Druid Oracle get something better then almost every other class in the game
They get
+1/3 base attack bonus D8 Hit dice spell progression equal to a Wizard/ sorcerer.
When I refer to spell progression I am referring to "spells per day".
The cleric also gets medium armor and can fight in melee.
So in my opinion the cleric doesn't need heavy armor, tower shields nor wisdom based channeling....they have a better deal then almost every other class already.
I've allowed clerics access to heavy armour since PF first started out and it hasn't broken anything. Of course, I'm unswayed by the argument that cleric (or full casters overall) are grossly overpowered and need to be cut down to size. Besides, in the campaign setting I play in (classic forgotten realms) plate armour is expected for several of the priesthoods, such as Helm, Torm, etc...
As for wisdom based channeling - give it a whirl and see what happens. As it stands, Paladins tend to have better channeling DC's than clerics, and that seems backwards to me. Clerics are vessels of their Gods' power, and they learn to use that power via force of will; works for spells, should work for their channeling as well. I've tried it, and the difference wasn't huge. Except for dwarven clerics. They loved it.
I tailor clerics to specific deities: some getting better armor, others more spell ooomph, others...you get the idea. That being said, once a cleric hits about level 6, they can almost go unarmed. One of our Sorceresses made a point of going into the last three dungeons in a 'peasant dress'. Don't laugh, the only two blows she got hit by would have hit better than 10 AC higher.
I don't see how heavy armor unbalances the cleric at all. Most clerics are going to take the feat anyways.
I've considered Wis-based channeling, too, but I like the idea of having "charismatic" clerics. Problem is, they already need just about every other stat (with the exception of Intelligence).
Wis-based channeling would really help dwarven clerics. Such an iconic class/race combination really should make for a better fit, mechanically. Then again, I'd hazard to say dwarves ought to make for excellent paladins (what with the smiting and all). Hell, their cultural alignment (LG) even fits with the class restrictions... but that's a whole 'nother issue.
TL;DR - I agree with the proposed changes (dwarven clerics everywhere, rejoice).
We already have CHA based clerics, they are called Oracles, ;P
Letting clerics have channeling tied to WIS gives them some more omph when the Will saves start getting ridiculous due to Cloak of Resistance wearing vampire clerics start showing up.
Or provide metamagic feats,items that let them Empower/Maximize their channeling. 1/Day of 30 points of heal/damage for a cleric won't break things
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The only help clerics need is more skill points, and the same can be said for fighters, paladins and sorcerers. Being MAD, they're forced to dump Int. It's pretty much de rigeur for a non-human cleric to have to choose between Spellcraft, Knowledge-Religion and Anything Else.
Thank you, thank you! Much food for thought...
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I will say that for the most part I agree on the balance portion of the argument as even a a cleric with a low to mid range CHA is still more then ell equipped to aid party recovery and thanks to solid spell option really don't need to worry about heavy armor long term. That being said my biggest issue with the class is it is pretty uninspiring in terms of thematic mechanics. I mean look at it compared to the oracle, after you get your domain abilities out of the way the only thing you really have to look forward to is another d6 of channel. I mean even the thrill of a new spell level is pretty much undercut considering you gain access to all of the spells of that level rather then having to pick a certain few for a list or go hunting them like sorcerers or wizards have to respectively. I mean the cleric is the only class that doesn't have a capstone for crying out loud and I don't know about you but it always felt wrong to me that my grand reward for becoming what could be the strongest agent of an omnipowerful god being to be little more then another d6 channel and a standard feat. In my mind towards the later part of the clerics progression you should start to be gaining abilities similar to the divine scion prestige class.
My other big issue is the low skill points clerics get as it is both counter intuitive in terms of game worlds and historical accuracy. Cleric were the smartest guys on the block during the dark and middle ages and are one of the big reasons we still have a lot of our history left over from that era as they had the sense to record it all and pass that knowledge down. Hell nobles would send their kids to monasteries in order to get them a proper education. Add that to in game worlds where they are meant to fill the same purpose and it just seems off that these servants of gods and advisers of kings can't be skilled in knowledge religion, history, diplomacy, and spellcraft unless they are human or have wellabove average intelligence. What makes matters worse though is tat somehow an oracle, a character who by and large just wakes up one day with magical divine powers without years of study is somehow more well versed then a cleric.
That being said my biggest issue with the class is it is pretty uninspiring in terms of thematic mechanics.
I agree entirely with this. I've always thought they were among the most boring classes. Channel, domains, spellcasting and... nothing else. Then 2+ skill points just doesn't go far in the skill department when your so stretched on attributes as is. Archtypes don't go to far to helping either, many of them are just flat out bad and a few trade out domains for other class features but they tend to be restrictive, limiting it to only certain characters. Lots and lots of complaints about clerics out of me...
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That being said my biggest issue with the class is it is pretty uninspiring in terms of thematic mechanics.I agree entirely with this. I've always thought they were among the most boring classes. Channel, domains, spellcasting and... nothing else. Then 2+ skill points just doesn't go far in the skill department when your so stretched on attributes as is. Archtypes don't go to far to helping either, many of them are just flat out bad and a few trade out domains for other class features but they tend to be restrictive, limiting it to only certain characters. Lots and lots of complaints about clerics out of me...
Yeah, this is reason one of my favorite replacements sometimes is the priest class from Tome of Secrets, why I'm actually excited for the war priest as I hope it will give all the holy warriors a place to go that isn't a paladin and jump start a real conversation with the staff to actually tweak the cleric class, and why I think the cloistered cleric needs to be dragged out back and shot.
I would love to see the go a little wild and at least give us some capstones, skill points buff, and maybe some more cleric centric options in the form of class features or cleric feats. Like I wish there was a way to take the ultimate mercy as a cleric and raise dead with a touch, it just seems more cleric'y then a paladin ability.
It amazes me how there will always be some complaint about every class. For me, the thematic mechanics of the cleric are its spell list. I guess it's less special now that every class has a million abilities. The cleric is strong, the cleric is cool. But every class sucks if you ask the right person. Clerics, druids, and wizards have always been high-tier. Other classes creep up on them, or derivatives are made for people who like options (oracle, magus) and suddenly these high-tier classes seem less appealing. Feels a bit arms-race-y to me. Where does it end? Something to consider.
Where does it end? Something to consider.
I'm sorry my opinion doesn't matter to you?
It does!!
I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive.
I am actually interested in where the cycle ends :)
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I am actually interested in where the cycle ends :)
Oh! I misunderstood then. Its... probably an endless cycle. I'd like to think you can always improve though. Especially when the same complaint occurs a few times over.
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It amazes me how there will always be some complaint about every class. For me, the thematic mechanics of the cleric are its spell list. I guess it's less special now that every class has a million abilities. The cleric is strong, the cleric is cool. But every class sucks if you ask the right person. Clerics, druids, and wizards have always been high-tier. Other classes creep up on them, or derivatives are made for people who like options (oracle, magus) and suddenly these high-tier classes seem less appealing. Feels a bit arms-race-y to me. Where does it end? Something to consider.
But this was a problem even back in 3.5 the issue isn't he power it's that the power doesn't remain fun and unique to the class like many other classes. I mean yes spells are cool but it's a power all those other classes get and just greys out after a while and considering that you are literally pulling the powers of gods that is truly depressing.
Second devolving our issue down to a simple, "well everyone has problems with some class" doesn't make it any less valid. All it does is try to devalue the opinion without putting up evidence to prove our complaints invalid.
Oh! I misunderstood then. Its... probably an endless cycle. I'd like to think you can always improve though. Especially when the same complaint occurs a few times over.
You can always improve. Buffing the cleric isn't that kind of improvement, though. It's an unsustainable improvement because if you just buff every class eventually you need to increase the power level of the entire system and then the cycle restarts. This came up in another thread I was posting in recently, but someone made some comments about spellcasters and balance and it depressed me because it seemed like the poster was tacitly accepting that spellcasters should be limited and unfun at some levels, and that noncasters should be limited and unfun at other levels, and that this is good balance. If the connection isn't obvious, I think it lies in the kinds of abilities the different classes have at different points in the game. And I think one of the biggest problems in Pathfinder is how different classes progress on totally different curves.
If there's a place to improve, it's there, I think.
Can we imagine a cleric who loses spellcasting entirely in exchange for a set of powers that gives it a fair (and fun) progression while maintaining a tight theme?
Did D&D 4e try to do something similar?
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I am actually interested in where the cycle ends :)Oh! I misunderstood then. Its... probably an endless cycle. I'd like to think you can always improve though. Especially when the same complaint occurs a few times over.
The minute we stop trying to improve the game is the moment the game goes under and we stagnate. Now I have no problem with having some classes be better then others I just don't like it when we create classes to fill a specific niche or character concept and then they not only fail to give us that mechanically but then this problem isn't address by staff because "It's still strong".
You can always improve. Buffing the cleric isn't that kind of improvement, though. It's an unsustainable improvement because if you just buff every class eventually you need to increase the power level of the entire system and then the cycle restarts.
I'm not sure if that's how that works. If you were to make fighters, monks, and rogues more on par with other tier 3 classes and give them interesting and fun options, the game won't break. Similarly if you gave clerics things to make them attractive but won't add anything actually powerful to them then you won't have to raise the bar(in particular things that allow it to perform multiple playstyles beyond channeling and healing). If you gave every class with 3/4 BAB martial weapons proficiency for instance, you removed a tax and 1 or 2 damage probably won't require monsters to be boosted at all. Or if you gave all non intellect based classes with 2+ skill points 4+ it makes those classes more competent, but skill points won't have to be risen all around, that ignored the point of raising the skill points in the first place.
doc, did you read my posts before responding? I ask because you seem to think I'm against improving the game, which is totally not where I am coming from. I think the game is lacking and deeply flawed in a lot of ways (doesn't mean I don't love it), and would love to improve it. Giving the cleric more things on top of its current goodies is not the solution because it creates more problems (further making the cleric that much better than most classes).
You can always improve. Buffing the cleric isn't that kind of improvement, though. It's an unsustainable improvement because if you just buff every class eventually you need to increase the power level of the entire system and then the cycle restarts.I'm not sure if that's how that works. If you were to make fighters, monks, and rogues more on par with other tier 3 classes and give them interesting and fun options, the game won't break. Similarly if you gave clerics things to make them attractive but won't add anything actually powerful to them then you won't have to raise the bar(in particular things that allow it to perform multiple playstyles beyond channeling and healing). If you gave every class with 3/4 BAB martial weapons proficiency for instance, you removed a tax and 1 or 2 damage probably won't require monsters to be boosted at all. Or if you gave all non intellect based classes with 2+ skill points 4+ it makes those classes more competent, but skill points won't have to be risen all around, that ignored the point of raising the skill points in the first place.
I think it is precisely how it works.
Unfortunately, the closer you come to real balance, the more opportunity you give players to raise absurd complaints. If you make fighters and rogues better, barbarian players will cry foul. If you raise every class to 4 skills, cavalier and alchemist players will object. Everyone wants to feel special and inhabit some kind of niche. And the more similar you make all classes mechanically, the more the 4th-ed haters will complain. It's a fine line between differentiation and relegation, but differentiation is necessary. It would be great if we could accomplish all the differentiation needed just by giving each class a full suite of flavorful abilities...
... but then people want archetypes, and then people want multiclass archetypes, and then you degrade the differentiation, and then players don't feel special enough (how often have you heard someone on these forums say "every other class can do what the rogue is supposed to do"?), and then you're back where you started.
Does my perception of a kind of cycle not make sense?
Rather than handing things out to classes, putting band-aids on perceived issues, I think it would be much more productive to examine the root causes of our dissatisfactions. Once we've identified those, we can work on fixing the game systems that perpetuate them.
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I don't know if I need a power nerf so much as some new mechanics like oracle revelations that allows the more personal customization of your cleric and their connection to the faith. This could be as a replacement to d6's of channel. The other option is that it comes up in a more staggered affair like the wizard bonus feats. That should be pretty balanced without having to mess with much considering that a wizard basically already gets the full casting, domain abilities through their specialization skill, and then still get other abilities on top of that that fill the same role as those of the clerics.
Read it but was posting as the other ones popped up. Also working on a tablet so it's slow.
Unfortunately, the closer you come to real balance, the more opportunity you give players to raise absurd complaints. If you make fighters and rogues better, barbarian players will cry foul. If you raise every class to 4 skills, cavalier and alchemist players will object. Everyone wants to feel special and inhabit some kind of niche.
But your not stealing anyone's niches. If I gave fighter rage/rage powers, trapfinding, 8 skill points, and 9 levels of wizard casting he'd be stealing niches. If I give him 4+ skill points, I didn't steal anyone's niche.
I certainly wouldn't accuse you of it. But someone would. Someone would post a thread much like this one, saying that their cavalier doesn't feel different enough from fighters. "Can I have six skill points per level?" he will ask.
I certainly wouldn't accuse you of it. But someone would. Someone would post a thread much like this one, saying that their cavalier doesn't feel different enough from fighters. "Can I have six skill points per level?" he will ask.
Bringing some classes up to stay competent is one thing. Bringing up everyone at once is another. Slippery slopes. That said, the fact they are similar is probably a reason they should have similar skill points.
I don't know if I need a power nerf so much as some new mechanics like oracle revelations that allows the more personal customization of your cleric and their connection to the faith. This could be as a replacement to d6's of channel.
A single oracle revelation can actually get channeling. Not a mystery, but just one revelation.
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A single oracle revelation can actually get channeling. Not a mystery, but just one revelation.
That single revelation only comes from one Mystery, and it gives 2 fewer base Channels per day than the cleric.
I am in agreement that the cleric class seems...boring. Especially in the early levels, where divine casters tend to lack the exciting and flavorful "oomph" that arcane casters have. A first level sorcerer can use magic missile or burning hands or sleep or silent image or enlarge person or summon monster I or...plenty of other effects.
Meanwhile, the cleric has cure light wounds, command, divine favor, bless, cause fear, and doom. I mean...buffing and healing is cool, but not really at the early levels where your teammates don't need a lot of help. At the early levels, damage and crowd control are much better than utility and extra numbers.
The problem with the cleric list (and the druid list) as full casters is simply that there are many many more sorcerer/wizard spells than there are cleric spells or druid spells. Sorcerers and wizards can do a lot more things at any given level than clerics or druids, and on top of that, they get awesome bloodline powers and arcane school powers that make them flavorful and fun to play.
Since this is a fix thread, I'll post some suggestions for class features for the cleric:
Scholar of the Faith (Ex): A cleric is a student of the church, and is privy to the secrets that church keeps guarded. A cleric adds half of her class level to her Knowledge (Religion) checks (minimum +1) and may make Knowledge (Religion) checks untrained.
Aura of Faith (Su): At 5th level, a cleric's aura becomes empowered to grant benefits to her and her allies. This benefit is based on the alignment of the aura the cleric emits. If the cleric emits an aura with multiple alignments, she only gets the benefit of one of those alignments from this class feature. A cleric with multiple alignment auras (such as Lawful Good) may choose a new alignment aura benefit available to her whenever she prepares her spells.
Evil - A cleric who projects an aura of evil grants allies within 30 feet of her a +1 bonus on Intimidate checks made against non-evil creatures. This bonus increases by +1 for each 3 class levels she has, to a maximum of +7 at 18th level. Additionally, the cleric receives a +1 bonus to the DC and caster level of her [fear] spells.
Good - A cleric who projects an aura of good grants allies within 30 feet of her a +1 bonus on Diplomacy checks made with non-evil creatures. This bonus increases by +1 for each 3 class levels she has, to a maximum of +7 at 18th level. Additionally, the cleric receives a +1 bonus to the DC and caster level of all her spells that use positive energy.
Law - A cleric who projects an aura of law grants allies within 30 feet of her a +1 bonus on Sense Motive checks made against non-lawful creatures. This bonus increases by +1 for each 3 class levels she has, to a maximum of +7 at 18th level. Additionally, the cleric receives a +1 bonus to the DC and caster level of all her spells with the (compulsion) subschool.
Chaos - A cleric who projects an aura of chaos grants allies within 30 feet of her a +1 bonus on Bluff checks made against non-chaotic creatures. This bonus increases by +1 for each 3 class levels she has, to a maximum of +7 at 18th level. Additionally, the cleric receives a +2 bonus to her saving throws made against spells with the (compulsion) subschool or the [law] type.
That single revelation only comes from one Mystery, and it gives 2 fewer base Channels per day than the cleric.
A single oracle revelation can actually get channeling. Not a mystery, but just one revelation.
Sort of, Juju and Bones get 3+ but can only use it for command undead, and the number quickly overcomes what the cleric has because your far more likely to crank up your charisma on an oracle than for a cleric. The DC also higher for a bones oracle or juju oracle than it will be for a wizard or a cleric. So they do the trick better, but less versatile. Its a good trick to have though!
I don't know if I need a power nerf so much as some new mechanics like oracle revelations that allows the more personal customization of your cleric and their connection to the faith. This could be as a replacement to d6's of channel. The other option is that it comes up in a more staggered affair like the wizard bonus feats. That should be pretty balanced without having to mess with much considering that a wizard basically already gets the full casting, domain abilities through their specialization skill, and then still get other abilities on top of that that fill the same role as those of the clerics.
Read it but was posting as the other ones popped up. Also working on a tablet so it's slow.
Right. Wizards can get 4 extra bonus feats total. If one is playing an AP that goes to 13-14, they at least get two more. So if a cleric could get a Channel related feat, this might help soothe the burn.
As Neoseraphi said, a wizard's magic missile remains useful throughout their career, 5 missiles isn't that bad. While CLW tops at 1d8+5 and hardly is worth it for stabilizing at the high levels
The only particular thing I don't like about the Cleric is the lack of a true capstone special ability.
Some domains give you one, but not all
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Another real issue with the Cleric is that they really are not the warrior of the faith they are intended to be and also are not really a full spellcaster. Yes, they have armor and shields and a few weapons, and yes they cast up to 9th level spells, but they do not qualify for a lot of Feats until it's too late to really want them, and as one of the only classes in the game that does not get bonus Feats, they are extremely limited in options. Add in the fact that they are extremely MAD, and they have a hard time developing a lot of chains anyway.
On the other hand, they do not have a lot of options in spellcasting, so a lot of spellcasting Feats (if they even apply to Clerics to begin with) just do not offer much bang for their buck. The vast majority of Metamagic Feats are just not worth it, (Extend and Quicken being the obvious exceptions). Their spell list itself is extremely bland, and Paizo is terrified to really branch out with Clerics like they do everyone else. So you'll see in books like Ult Magic that Druids have more spells on their 1st - 3rd list than the entire 1st - 9th level Cleric list, and most of it is kind of garbage stuff you wouldn't ever (as a PC, maybe as an NPC), ever want to actually use. Domains are kind of a joke, with most of them very "meh" and a few that are pretty strong, (Travel, Libration, Chaos, Charm).
They get everything at 1st level, and 1 or 2 Class Features later on, typically at 8th level, but Channeling is only good at 1st and 2nd level, and just gets steadily worse, basically pointless at 5th+. Because the Cleric used to have 7 levels of spells, not 9, 3E stretched it's list out to make it a 9 level caster. The result is that you have a few spell levels that are just terrible, (4th, 7th, and 8th), and a lot of their spells are actually very underpowered for their level. Add in the fact that most Cleric spells tend to cap out fairly quickly after they get them and do not stack much at all with their own list, but rather override what they already have, you tend to see just about all Clerics with a very similar list, regardless of the individuals build or theme. Another issue is that the Cleric does not get a single thing that other classes don't get. Plenty of classes get Domains, Oracles tend to be better divine casters than Clerics, (SAD, and get a lot of class features that enhance their spells, Cleric don't), and plenty of class can Channel Energy, most better than the Cleric at the end of the day, unless you mean in the band aid sense.
Huge lack of Prestige Classes and small number of Archtypes, and other options, (oddly with a large percentile of them being craptastic) just leave the class very flat and uninteresting. 4+Int should be the min Skill Points unless you are an Int based caster, which really hurts the Cleric a lot.
One last really big issue with the Cleric, one that I don't think a lot of people realize is that it changes focus somewhere around 7th to 9th level. Early on, you can make a heavy casting Cleric, but they will not be very good at it, (compared to a real caster), but the classes strength (well it's supposed to be) in that it's a secondary warrior/secondary caster. Once you hit somewhere around 7th though, that starts to shift, and constantly shifts more and more in favor of the caster than the warrior side. Not able to keep up with HP, Defenses, or Feats as pretty much anyone else that would be in a similar role, the choice between a standard action to attack (or maybe Full Attack for a whole 2 hits) vs using that time for a spell that are finally starting to get good, not great, but good just gets easier and easier in favor of the casting, especially now that casting 2 spells or so will not use all of your resources for the day. That means a lot of the feats and build you did up front, particularly for a heavy combat or a generic Cleric (half casty/half melee) build starts to be wasted more and more.
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Andrea! One of my favorite roleplayers on the site! I didn't know you ventured into the Homebrew forum. Good to see you. :)
Anyway, thought a bit more on it. Here's some more class features:
The Power of God (Su):
At 1st level, a cleric chooses a path for her to walk. This path determines how her deity will empower her. Once chosen, this power cannot be changed unless the cleric somehow changes deities.
Sword - A cleric who walks the way of the sword gains a +1 sacred bonus on her attack and damage rolls if her deity is good or neutral, or a +1 profane bonus on her attack and damage rolls if her deity is evil. These bonuses increase by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 to attack and damage rolls at level 20.
Shield - A cleric who walks the way of the shield gains an additional hit point each time she takes a level of cleric (this bonus applies to first level as well). She also gains proficiency with heavy armor and gains a +1 bonus to her AC while she wields a shield. This bonus is sacred if her deity is good or neutral, or profane if her deity is evil. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 AC at level 20.
Healing - When a cleric who walks the path of healing casts a conjuration (healing) spell, she heals her target for an additional 3 hit points per level of the spell. This stacks with any hit point healing the spell may already grant. This ability uses positive energy but has no effect on undead. An evil cleric may not choose to walk the path of healing.
Destruction - When a cleric who walks the path of destruction casts a cleric spell that deals hit point damage, it deals an additional +1 damage per die. This damage is of the same type as the damage the spell deals. A good cleric may not choose to walk the path of destruction.
Gate - A cleric who walks the path of the gate receives a +1 bonus to her caster level when she casts a conjuration (summoning) spell. This bonus increases by +1 for each 5 levels of cleric she has, to a maximum of +6 CL at level 20. Additionally, whenever a cleric of the gate casts a summon monster spell to summon multiple monsters from a lower spell list, she summons one additional monster of that type.
Domination - A cleric of domination receives a +1 bonus to the DC of her enchantment spells. This bonus increases by +1 per 5 levels of cleric she has, to a maximum of +6 DC at 20th level. Additionally, once per day as a swift action, a cleric of domination can call upon the power of her deity to enact a small miracle. She can negate one creature within 30 feet's immunity to mind-affecting spells (or spells of the (charm) or (compulsion) subschool) for 1 round per cleric level. If she uses this ability and then successfully enchants the creature with immunity, the effect of the spell automatically ends after the miracle expires. This ability is a supernatural ability that can nullify both type-based immunities (such as undead), and magically granted immunities (such as mind blank) but does not allow the cleric to enchant a creature with no Intelligence score.
Undeath - A cleric who walks the path of undeath gains the Craft Wondrous Item feat as a bonus feat (ignoring the prerequisites) and can craft a phylactery without paying any gp cost (she still needs to be at least 11th level to become a lich). Additionally, when the cleric of undeath channels negative energy to heal undead, she heals them for 1 additional hit point per die of channeled energy.
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The main problem with the cleric is that it's dull.
The solution is to change the domain system.
Suppose instead of domain powers they got a weaker power every two levels and each of those powers had one or more domains it was available to, similar to how oracles have revelations.
Man, if only you saw the PF Beta Domains. . .
The other thing that really needs dropped is these round per level per day abilities. Not only is that incredibly annoying, it's kind of stupid.
Personally, I think each Domain should have A.) a permanent power, B.) a 1st level weak power #+Wis/day, C.)a 2nd or 3rd level choice (similar to combat style or Monk Bonus Feats choices, one or the other), D.) a bonus Feat or two, an 8th level strong power, E.) a 12th level really strong power, and F.) a 20th level capstone on par with becoming immortal, an outsider, or immunity to something.
How about bonus channel feat at 1,5, and every 5 lvls thereafter? +4 skills is almost certain.
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Andrea! One of my favorite roleplayers on the site! I didn't know you ventured into the Homebrew forum. Good to see you. :)
Anyway, thought a bit more on it. Here's some more class features:
The Power of God (Su):
At 1st level, a cleric chooses a path for her to walk. This path determines how her deity will empower her. Once chosen, this power cannot be changed unless the cleric somehow changes deities.Sword - A cleric who walks the way of the sword gains a +1 sacred bonus on her attack and damage rolls if her deity is good or neutral, or a +1 profane bonus on her attack and damage rolls if her deity is evil. These bonuses increase by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 to attack and damage rolls at level 20.
Shield - A cleric who walks the way of the shield gains an additional hit point each time she takes a level of cleric (this bonus applies to first level as well). She also gains proficiency with heavy armor and gains a +1 bonus to her AC while she wields a shield. This bonus is sacred if her deity is good or neutral, or profane if her deity is evil. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 AC at level 20.
Healing - When a cleric who walks the path of healing casts a conjuration (healing) spell, she heals her target for an additional 3 hit points per level of the spell. This stacks with any hit point healing the spell may already grant. This ability uses positive energy but has no effect on undead. An evil cleric may not choose to walk the path of healing.
Destruction - When a cleric who walks the path of destruction casts a cleric spell that deals hit point damage, it deals an additional +1 damage per die. This damage is of the same type as the damage the spell deals. A good cleric may not choose to walk the path of destruction.
Gate - A cleric who walks the path of the gate receives a +1 bonus to her caster level when she casts a conjuration (summoning) spell....
Gahh ate my post, anyways long and short of it is that that idea is a good start but it still locks you into a static power progression that is set from level 1 and cannot really be changed. The best answer would be a system that works off a more intangible variable like the rogue talents system, rage powers, or bonus feats allowing players multiple ways to customize their character throughout their career rather then just at the beginning.
Extra credits did a good piece on the concept let me see if I can find the episode.
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doc I believe it's their episode on gameplay depth.
On topic!
I totally felt the drop in thematic power as a cleric in my shift to PF. I went from obliterating undead to sorta finangling around in melee for a while against them. And I'm totally and completely and irrevocably built for slaying undead. My deity is one who sees undead as an abomination and they all must be scourged!
I definitely like the ideas of taking a bit from the Oracle revelations. Some domains (I.E the best ones) grant a permanent bonus already. However this is not true for all of them and you can really feel it. I'm about to hit 9th level and all I have to look forward to for the rest of my career is new spells. I would really enjoy something like the Arcane Discoveries Wizards can get. I mean they can get the service of a 12hd outsider for practically free. What the hell? And the Cleric isn't important enough for his deity to send some back up?
Also Sword is a bit strong I would tone it down to every 6 levels from a balance perspective, but when I think more deeply about it, I think it still comes out about good considering you'll likely have less total damage than a martial. I really do want to seriously consider full attacking or casting a spell because I've hit right at the point where casting tends to be more favorable and I know that it just gets worse from there.
Being a prepared full caster, Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in the game (top 3 at the very least).
Giving them heavy armor proficiency and tower shield would step too much on Fighters' toes (and those of all other martial classes as well). Buffing their domains is also unnecessary (although there are some domains that really suck).
I'm not sure why Channel is based on Charisma, though, when everything else is based on Wisdom. (Actually it would make more sense if Cleric casting were based on Cha instead of Wis, but that's a whole other story)
Personally, I'd have no problem making Channel Energy be based on Wisdom
I'd probably make it Wisdom + 1/2 Cleric level, though, so he gets more channels per day at higher levels and has better chance to compensate for the insane damage output seen in those levels. It's not like channel energy is game-breaking or even that powerful. It's also not a selfish ability, as it helps the whole party most of the time.
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Being a prepared full caster, Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in the game (top 3 at the very least).
Based on what?
Giving them heavy armor proficiency and tower shield would step too much on Fighters' toes (and those of all other martial classes as well). Buffing their domains is also unnecessary (although there are some domains that really suck).
I would say that Tower Shield is too much, but Heavy Armor is not only iconic, but perfectly fits the theme for the class. Besides, Pathfinder is all about stepping on toes. :)
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Ohh what I would love to see them do is base the new abilities off channels say something like this
Revelation: your hod has spoken to you and shown you the true path of devotion. His power is yours to command. At second and every 2 levels thereafter yo may select a new revelation. DC's are 10+1/2 lvl+CHA modifier.
Bow to your lord: You may call upon the will of the lord and his awe inspiring power, causing others to bow down and prostrate themselves before his might. You may expend a use of your channel energy to call down but a sliver of your gods lordly might causing all enemies within 30ft and to make a will save or drop their weapons and fall prone, prostrating themselves to his glory. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to the number of d6's you roll for channel energy. This effect ends the if any damage befalls the targets. Targets are treated as prone but not helpless. Clerics with the Glory domain increase their DC by 4. This is a morale effect.
Shackles of the Prince: You are a servant of the iron order without pit or remorse and woe betide those who seek to break its iron order. You may expend 1 use of your channel energy to cause the iron chains of law to rupture from the ground, shackling all enemies where they stand. All targets must make a Ref save or become entangled and unable to leave their square for a number of rounds equal to number of d6's usually rolled for channel energy. Clerics with the Law domain or any of its subdomains increase this dc by 2, chaotic characters targeted by this ability receive a -2 on their save.
Creations of God: You have a knack for creation similar to your gods and are able to create and give life to your creations. You may expend 1 use of channel energy to grant one weapon the dancing quality for a number of rounds equal to your channel dice. You may expend 2 uses to imbue one nearby object with life. This object treat as an animated object with abilities matching its original form. A cleric may only animate an object with a number of build points equal to his level or less. All objects effected by this ability must remain within 30ft of the cleric or lose all power, falling lifeless in the square they occupy. Clerics with the Artfice domain may animate objects with only 1 charge and may double their range for 1 round as a free action by expending another use of channel energy. A cleric with the Artifice domain may also animate an object with a build point total equal to twice their level.
Being a prepared full caster, Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in the game (top 3 at the very least).Based on what?
Based on the fact that full spellcasting (especially prepared spellcasting) is the most powerful ability in the game.
Giving them heavy armor proficiency and tower shield would step too much on Fighters' toes (and those of all other martial classes as well). Buffing their domains is also unnecessary (although there are some domains that really suck).I would say that Tower Shield is too much, but Heavy Armor is not only iconic, but perfectly fits the theme for the class. Besides, Pathfinder is all about stepping on toes. :)
Clerics don't need heavy armor. We don't need to see the return of CoDzilla. Leave that to Paladins and Fighters. Not sure why anyone would want Tower Shield proficiency. Tower shields are terrible. Which is a shame, as I find them really cool. Just not cool enough to be worth the terrible mechanics.
Being a prepared full caster, Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in the game (top 3 at the very least).Based on what?
Not that I'm Lemmy, but I can respond. Ideally prepared casting is the most powerful thing you can do. The three prepared casters, ideally, could be prepared for anything. Casting at all is pretty awesome, and 9 levels of it should darn well kick butt! I said ideally though, because spells between schools aren't even. Many of the clerics blasty spells are capped low and are most effective against a specific kind of foe(better hope your fighting demons...) Personally I think in the 1-5 level range, where I usually play, the spell list could be seen as pretty poor for a variety of reasons.
Pathfinder is all about stepping on toes. :)
So... Steel toed boots are OP?