| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Lycanthopy confuses me. It seems like the rules for Lycanthropy are all over the place. Now I don't just mean that as in: they don't make sense. I also mean they're literally all over the place. And when I finally get them all together, I don't feel any less confused.
For those of you who don't know, Lycanthropy is a curse that turns the victim into a werewolf. Note that we will not be discussing natural Lycanthropes, only those who have been afflicted.
Type curse (injury); Save Fort DC 15 negates, Will DC 15 to avoid effects
Onset the next full moon; Frequency on the night of every full moon or whenever the target is injured
Effect target transforms into a wolf under the GM's control until the next morning
So going by this an afflicted person risks going into wolf-form when the full moon is out, and when he takes damage. So far so good. Easy to understand. But what does it mean to be a werewolf? For that information we consult the Lycanthrope template.
A creature that catches lycanthropy becomes an afflicted lycanthrope, but shows no symptoms (and does not gain any of the template's adjustments or abilities) until the night of the next full moon, when the victim involuntarily assumes animal form and forgets his or her own identity. The character remains in animal form until the next dawn and remembers nothing about the entire episode (or subsequent episodes) unless he makes a DC 20 Will save, in which case he becomes aware of his condition.
A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher cures the affliction, provided the character receives the spell within 3 days of the infecting lycanthrope's attack. Alternatively, consuming a dose of wolfsbane gives an afflicted lycanthrope a new Fortitude save to recover from lycanthropy.
Hmm, curious. Lycanthropy is a curse, but a Remove Disease(?) spell cures it, if applied within 3 days of the attack, provided the caster is 12th level or higher.
We can also use Wolfsbane to give us another save. Let's look at Wolfsbane.
Type poison (ingested); Save Fortitude DC 16
Onset 10 minute; Frequency 1/minute for 6 minutes
Effect 1d3 Con damage; Cure 1 save
The root of this tall plant with blue flowers is toxic, but herbalists use it in low doses to reduce pain and regulate the heart. Folklore says it can help a victim of lycanthropy throw off the curse.
uh oh...
And with this, my mind begins spewing stuff without my permission. If lycanthropy is a curse, why does a Cure Disease spell affect it?
Why must an afflicted character have a heal or Remove disease cast on them by a 12th level cleric? Do they mean to say that an Oracle could not cure it? What about a druid? Why does the level matter?
Is Lycanthropy a disease that is extraordinarily powerful while incubating (necessitating a 12th level cleric), but then matures into a weak curse? Is it a curse from the very beginning? The rules seem to indicate so because the rules tell us:
Curse of Lycanthropy(Su): A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope, this ability has no effect.
The name indicates that it is a curse, and the save DC is the same as the save DC of the Curse called Lycanthropy, which has been listed earlier.
So what is with the Remove Disease? If lycanthropy is a curse, it can be removed with a casting of Remove Curse. Keep in mind that Remove Curse is a 3rd level cleric spell and a 4th level wizard spell, meaning a 5th level cleric or 7th level wizard could cure lycanthropy with little effort. So why then must the curse be halted in its tracks by such obscenely powerful magic?
Remove curse can remove all curses on an object or a creature. If the target is a creature, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the DC of each curse affecting the target. Success means that the curse is removed.
So what's the issue? Is it because it does not count as a curse before 3 days have passed? If so, do you still risk turning into a werewolf if you get hit in combat, as per the Curse Lycanthropy?
Furthermore, if you get attacked by a werewolf, what are you supposed to do? Folklore(and the Lycanthrope template) would have you know you should eat Wolfsbane, but that leaves us with a decision to make. What Wolfsbane? We can use a 500 gp Con poison, or a harmless 5sp plant.
So Lycanthropy is a curse, unless it's a disease, unless it's both, that can be removed by a 12th level cleric within 3 days, or any caster capable of casting Remove Curse, at any point in time after becomming afflicted. Further, Lycanthropy permits an extra save within 3 days if the victim consumes a plant, unless the victim is supposed to consume a poison.
Lycanthropy confuses me...
-Nearyn
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a couple things in the game that are both a disease and a curse. It also looks like it has some legacy wording from 3.5.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not really, its a mechanic that for the most part has only been used with Mummies and Lycanthropes. It is a supernatural disease but unless they introduce a magic or other game thing that specifically targets supernatural diseases a label isnt necessary.
Basically, All attempts to use magic or healing to remove the disease will fail because the /curse/ makes it persistant.
As one of the posters above me said this makes lycanthropes dangerous for people who dont want to be hairy during times of stress.
Interesting.
@Mojorat: The legacy wording option is probably right. I can imagine this being carried over, and not corrected through mere oversight.
@Cheapy: Interesting. Wonder if that is the intention with Lycanthropy, as well?
@blashimov: Actually, I don't think the template overrides Remove Curse at all. Nothing in it seems to indicate it, anyway. The text expressly tells us that the Remove-Disease-12th-level-cleric angle only works up to 3 days after affliction. The affliction still very much remains a curse, just a normal curse, by its writing anyway, and should still be subject to Remove Curse. This, coupled with the requirement of a 12th level cleric within 3 days, of course, boggles the mind.
@Lincoln Hills: I agree it could use a bit of wording workover, but Cheapy's link to Mummy Rot shows us that sometimes an affliction can be -both- a curse and a disease, which I'm guessing is what lycanthropy is supposed to be.
So Lycanthropy is a curse, that was likely supposed to also count as a disease, that can be removed through a Remove Disease or Heal spell cast on the victim until 3 days after affliction, provided the caster is a 12th level cleric. However, it is likely that it is meant to be able to be cured by a 12th level caster, casting aforementioned spells, not just a cleric. -However-, presently, it can also simply be cured with a casting of Remove Curse, which is a 3rd level cleric spell, at any point after affliction, despite the fact that it probably should not be able to. --However-- the afflicted person might be able to beat the effects of the curse, masquerading as a disease(?), by ingesting either a flower or a poison of the same name, unless it's supposed to only work if you chose one or the other, until 3 days after being afflicted with Lycanthropy to begin with.
Bonus round: As a curse, could you be afflicted by Lycanthropy through a casting of Bestow Curse? Can curses you can remove through the casting of Remove Curse, be bestowed through the casting of Bestow Curse? They seem to be written to be mirror opposites, even cancelling eachother out when counterspelling, yet from how I read it, Bestow Curse could not be used as such.
-Nearyn
|
Resurrecting this thread because I myself was wondering this for a long time and finally found an answer - so maybe someone who wonders the same might have the satisfaction of knowing.
The answer is buried in the Broken Moon-AP. Not in the adventure itself, mind you, but in the text about lycanthropes. I cannot quote it since I only own the German version, but the core of it is this:
The curse is only really active while the lycanthrope is in a changed form, the rest of the time it lies dormant. So you cannot go to a cleric and let him cast "Remove Curse" in human form - you have to actually change into hybrid form for that to work.
But of course your hybrid form is a chaotic evil lunatic who only wishes to slaughter everything, so this raises a whole new level of "dangerous cure" - ony this time the healer is in danger, not the patient.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I thought the weird language in 3.x is actually a 2nd ed holdover. (I was wrong; see below.) As I recall lycantrophy and mummy rot were THE dread afflictions.
The 2.5 MM has a "Curse of Lycanthropy" spell; level 6 wizard (necromancy/alteration). Range touch; a failed save vs. spell inflicts the curse. It can be removed only with Remove Curse (grants a new save, vs. polymorph), or a Wish spell. Other than that, you have three party nights every lunar cycle. At the end of the party you make a new save at -3 vs. polymorph to shake off the spell.
Contracting lycanthropy from a lycanthrope: you have a % chance of being infected equal to the melee damage taken. (If you took 24 damage, there's a 24% chance of infection.) No save. If you eat belladonna within an hour, there's a 25% chance of being cured, but you'll be incapacitated for 1d4 days by the belladonna.
The only other way to life the curse is with Remove Curse, cast on the night of the full moon. This triggers a save vs. polymorph. Success breaks the curse; failure means the transformation happens. There is no other cure (cure disease specifically doesn't work).
===
2nd edition Van Richten's Guide to Werebeasts (Ravenloft) requires a substantially more complicated procedure to cure lycanthropy, including killing the true lycanthrope ultimately responsible for infection (in RL, infected lycanthropes are contagious), doing sincere penance for acts committed in were-shape, and then casting Atonement, Cure Disease and Remove Curse, followed by a saving throw. This procedure can be tried only once; if it fails all hope is lost. 3rd ed Ravenloft repeats this schema.
It also talks extensively about how hard it is to detect lycanthropy; because Ravenloft is out to get you, most detecting magic won't work, although Wish might. Oh, and not all weres shift on the full moon; some have other triggers.