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Do the rules of PFS fair play apply to GM’s when it comes to rules, dice rolls, and stat blocks? Or are they god like and make any decisions they want at their table in PFS?
Here is the situation, we are playing at a convention, scenario 4-26, we are playing up and we told the GM we do not want to play in hard mode.
We breeze though all of the dungeon without much difficulty.
We get to Krune, mind you the GM has been bragging the entire time how tough Krune is.
We finish the previous combat and wait 4 round for him to appear. The GM rolls Krune’s initiative and tells us we have to keep the initiative from the previous combat. This upset one player because he wants to use his shirt re-roll to use it on Krune’s intiatvie, I say it’s bad GM call but not illegal.
Krune goes first and does this:
Round 1- Casts Quickened wall of stone (legal), cloudkill (legal), and uses his move action to move through a wall (he does not have this ability, he does have dimension door but can’t do that even if quickened on this round)
We spend a round dealing with the spells.
Round 3 – Krune from outside the room summons 3 elder earth elementals who come in and start killing a party member a round. (after reviewing Krune’s stat block we know now know that the best summon spell he has he can summon 1 greater earth elemental or 3 huge elementals).
On the next round he kills another party member. Who brought up with a breath of life.
On the next round the earth elementals kill the same person again.
At which point we decide that we have to run, so a decision is made on how to do that and collect the bodies, but suddenly 3 newly entered medium size earth elementals join the fray and the GM decides these guys are going to try and block the escape instead of attacking spell casters first as he says the other elementals were acting. When we questions this the GM says that Krune has scrying and telepathy to communicate with the elementals which he has neither on his stat block.
While the remaining players are tyring to escate the combat the GM rolls a 11 on one of his attack rolls a determines it is a critical hit. We didn’t call it out when we saw it due to trying to play a friendly game of PF and not even expecting that a GM would change a result of a dice roll.
So we have 5 witnesses now from 5 players and GM’s with at least 150 tables of play each.
Is it illegal for a GM to change die roll results, add spells, and create special abilities that a creature does not have? It seems to me the GM has made the decision he was going to kill the party and was going to bend whatever rule he wanted to get this result, is this legal?
The end result was 2 dead, a failed mission, loss of gold, and loss of a unique boon, (the Triaxius 1/time teleportation orb to get the remaining party members out.) and a crappy time playing the season 4 highlight scenario.
If we file a complaint with a local VC what can be done? Do game results ever get overturned? Do GM’s get censured? Can GM’s be censured in PFS?
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Is it illegal for a GM to change die roll results, add spells, and create special abilities that a creature does not have? It seems to me the GM has made the decision he was going to kill the party and was going to bend whatever rule he wanted to get this result, is this legal?
Yes, yes, and yes. From your description the GM decided he was gonna win.
On the complaint side, I have a feeling nothing would be done on the overturning results category. He would prolly be reprimanded, but most likely nothing else would happen. Perhaps he would be asked to not GM?
Personally, this would not have been a friendly game of PFS for very long if I saw this stuff happening.
GMs have to play by the rules. They cannot add in extra opponents, give them extra skills, feats or magic items, not can they change out the feats, magic items, etc.. On more than one occasion, the instruction has been to run the scenarios as written.
You should talk to your VO. If they don't do anything, or you don't know your VO, you can send a PM to Mike.
From what I have seen and heard, Mike will look into it, and if what you described happened (i.e. the GM cheating and/or changing the scenario), likely make it right.
Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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Sounds like the GM was playing GM vs. Players.
Changing die results: Highly discouraged (especially against the party)
Add Spells: Not Legal
Create Special Abilities: Not Legal
PFS Scenarios, as you know based the number of stars you have, are to be run as written. Based on the information provided, this was not the case. This scenario was brutal to begin with and it sounds like the GM made it impossible and was out to win.
You could file a complaint with your local VC, but I don't know what their options are as I am not a VO. I have heard of games being voided. Sorry, this happened and hope something positive comes as a result.
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In chapter 5 of the PFS guide, you will read the following:
"Do Not Cheat
Do not falsify rolls," plus more.
In chapter 7, you will read the following:
"Table Variation
We understand that sometimes a Game Master
has to make rules adjudications on the fly, deal with
unexpected player choices, or even cope with extremely
unlucky (or lucky) dice on both sides of the screen.
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and
responsibility to make whatever judgements, within the
rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure
everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not
mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in
this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com.
What it does mean is that only you can judge what is right
for your table during cases not covered in these sources.
Scenarios are meant to be run as written, with no addition
or subtraction to number of monsters (unless indicated
in the scenario), or changes to armor, feats, items, skills,
spells, stats, traits, or weapons." plus more.
Without foolishly picking apart the wording of these things, the spirit of PFS basically states "Do everything you can to promote a fair and fun experience.".
If your version of events is correct, that clearly was not provided. I would recommend contacting your local VC, or Mike directly if you are without, and allow that individual to converse with the GM who ran this scenario for you on your behalf. They will surely get to the bottom of it if things were handled unfairly.
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Things like this should not be posted on forums, but taken up with a VC or Mike Brock.
YES, HOW DARE YOU ASK FOR ADVICE ON A SITUATION WHILE NAMING ABSOLUTELY NO NAMES
edit: ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ADVICE YOU ARE ASKING IS, "SHOULD I TAKE THIS UP WITH CAMPAIGN LEADERSHIP" I MEAN MY GOD MAN
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Things like this should not be posted on forums, but taken up with a VC or Mike Brock.YES, HOW DARE YOU ASK FOR ADVICE ON A SITUATION WHILE NAMING ABSOLUTELY NO NAMES
edit: ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ADVICE YOU ARE ASKING IS, "SHOULD I TAKE THIS UP WITH CAMPAIGN LEADERSHIP" I MEAN MY GOD MAN
Going with excessive details was unnecessary. All he needed to do was say he had a problem with a GM.
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I would recommend contacting Mike about this. Your GM made some crucial errors that lead to party death, and these sorts of things need to be taken care of - the longer the GM gets away with it, the more they will try to get away with.
To answer the original question, a GM may not alter stat blocks or create new abilities. A GM may fudge dice rolls in limited circumstances, but should not fudge them in such a way as to lead to character death. This should generally be used only when the party is a team of mostly new players who will face certain death.
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It seems like he had a legitimate question to the parameters of his specific situation. He didn't come on here to rant away about what was wrong, he was asking if key points of the situation were, in any way, legitimate. Perhaps he needed a bit of bolstering to follow a correct path in this, and browbeating him about doing something wrong, when he obviously is looking to approach this in the best possible manner is rather wrong of you. Not everyone has a bullet list of steps to take, that's what this forum is for.
As for the OP, you are doing a perfect job on getting this taken care of. As everyone has said, approach your VO, VC, or Mike. 95% of the GM's for PFS respect the core value of the campaign. Yes, I will fudge dice for random gross amounts of damage that interfere more than add to gameplay. However, my players also know that when the heat is on, I will crit, I will drop players, and deliver consequences without bias for foolishness. GM's who read their material know that we are not allowed to throw anything against you that's not written in the scenario. I will throw a caveat in there that sometimes misinterpretation can be the norm, not the exception.
There are those people who cannot let go of the GM vs. Players attitude, and they tend to feel that the GM fiat is first and foremost weapon in that fight. This is not your burden to change, and we as the PFS GM community need to reinforce that our hierarchy is supportive, and reactive. This person will be dealt with, and though it will not be some hammer-smashes-fly punishment, our leaders will try to correct the course of this errant ship.
Please continue to ask questions. Maintain this emotional control you seem to embrace (congrats. I don't think I could have kept silent at the table), and hopefully continue enjoying the game. good luck.
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Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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Going with excessive details was unnecessary. All he needed to do was say he had a problem with a GM.Things like this should not be posted on forums, but taken up with a VC or Mike Brock.YES, HOW DARE YOU ASK FOR ADVICE ON A SITUATION WHILE NAMING ABSOLUTELY NO NAMES
edit: ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ADVICE YOU ARE ASKING IS, "SHOULD I TAKE THIS UP WITH CAMPAIGN LEADERSHIP" I MEAN MY GOD MAN
Adam, at first glance, I would have respectfully disagreed with you about the excessive details not being needed when requesting advice on going to leadership on this issue as these details did influence my response. After thinking about how I would have responded with just the statement of "I have a problem with a GM what should I do?", I realized my response would have been different and, in the end, would have provided the same recommendation but started with talk to the GM in question first before escalating to VO then Mike. Even though the "I have a problem with a GM" statement would have situations ranging from a personality conflict to exactly what was described in the original post, I wanted to thank you for the reminder of one of the many things I had learned in GM 201 at Paizocon 2013.
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The situation has been resolved to my (and hopefully everyone's) satisfaction.
I am fond of handling this in-house, especially when I'm at the event.
If you were a player on this table and you'd like to discuss the matter privately with me, my 'door' is always open.
Happy Gaming!
Azmyth
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Going with excessive details was unnecessary. All he needed to do was say he had a problem with a GM.Things like this should not be posted on forums, but taken up with a VC or Mike Brock.YES, HOW DARE YOU ASK FOR ADVICE ON A SITUATION WHILE NAMING ABSOLUTELY NO NAMES
edit: ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ADVICE YOU ARE ASKING IS, "SHOULD I TAKE THIS UP WITH CAMPAIGN LEADERSHIP" I MEAN MY GOD MAN
I think this post is perfectly fit for this place. The only people that would recognize who it is are the people that were there.
Saying I have a problem with a DM is vague. I know people who have problem with DMs when they enforce rules like owning the books.
Stating the problem and the egregious nature of the cheating I think helps the community. I played with DMs that did similar, but not as severe things I want them to knwo the community as a whole does not support it.
Plus there was a chance the player misunderstood the rules and the DM could have actually been in the right. So it gives the opportunity to correct a misunderstanding before someone gets attacked.
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Is it illegal for a GM to change die roll results, add spells, and create special abilities that a creature does not have? It seems to me the GM has made the decision he was going to kill the party and was going to bend whatever rule he wanted to get this result, is this legal?
There's a lot of that going around. A very similar thing happened to me at Gencon this year. Bonekeep and Waking Rune has twisted some GMs and brought out the worst in them.
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Is it illegal for a GM to change die roll results, add spells, and create special abilities that a creature does not have? It seems to me the GM has made the decision he was going to kill the party and was going to bend whatever rule he wanted to get this result, is this legal?There's a lot of that going around. A very similar thing happened to me at Gencon this year. Bonekeep and Waking Rune has twisted some GMs and brought out the worst in them.
I think you're right I've heard a lot of chatter between GM's about bragging about TPK's in Bonekeep, it seems there is a loss of clarity that a good judge is in charge of leading a enjoyable experience and is there to insure eveyone is playing by the rules including himself to the best of his ability.
I'm OK with a judge making things tough, I actually enjoy the challenge, but they need to stay within the paramaters of the written material and rules. Which was not the case in this situation.
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I think you're right I've heard a lot of chatter between GM's about bragging about TPK's in Bonekeep, it seems there is a loss of clarity that a good judge is in charge of leading a enjoyable experience and is there to insure eveyone is playing by the rules including himself to the best of his ability.
Yes, instead of the session being about a fair and fun experience (that was also extremely challenging), I felt like some GMs actually felt like they were doing something wrong if they didn't have 1-2 kills during the scenario, and then went outside the rules and scenario stats to accomplish it.
The pharse that sticks in my mind was:
"Of course you got BONED, that's why they called it Bonekeep!"this was the reply when I encountered things that appeared to not work via the rules. (Traps that can not be detected until triggered, monsters that can not be precieved until after they attack, etc.)
Yes, that's adversarial. Any GM with that mindset isn't going to provide a fun experience, they just changed the game from PC vs environment to PC vs GM.
I pretty much encountered the same thing as you nosig and much much more. I didn't complain at the time because I wasn't sure if there were specific things about Bonekeep I didn't know about. Plus you can't argue too much, there just isn't time (if you want to finish). Then, I spoke to several other groups about it and they didn't experience the same thing... at all. 100% different experience. Anyway, it's already handled so I won't say anything more except that it's a horrible experience (and rattles my trust in PFS GMs) and I sympathize with both of you.
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PC vs DM instead of PC vs the mod has always been an issue.
I know some DMs felt PCs winning meant the GM is losing. Espcially since the mod is meant to be hard makes this more extreme. That is a sad use of logic.
in my first bonekeep The DM I found was very poor and refused to look at the books saying his ruling were incorrect(the quickest way for me to lose any respect for a DM).
Our second one was amazing and I had lots of fun. Even though we lost having an honest challenge was amazing.
I am tempted to use a DM replay for the first one in hopes I get a better DM.
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Bonekeep and its ilk sort of encourage this mentality, though. That's one reason that I will never run those adventures unless I am absolutely required to.
That being said, Finlander, I sometimes refuse to look at the books when making a ruling if it's something I've had to look up before and remember. I don't need to look up whether reach weapons suffer from cover penalties, for instance.
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Nah, they can be chosen for both. For example, a monk to fight defensively to move and strike, or to use Fighting Defensively with Flurry of Blows.
Though for total defense, I usually consider it as a standard action. Better to have up to your movement speed to move around or pull a potion out rather than simply a 5-foot step. =)
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It happens. I make mistakes a couple times during every game as a DM. Although if a player can show me the rules that I am wrong I immediately am willing to read any rule and adjust my ruling.
in the heat of the moment you have your monsters to control and plan. Then you have to know enough about the PCs to make sure they are doing legal things. I am bound to miss something.
Knowing you can make mistakes and adjust is what makes up for that.
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Total defence gives a Dodge bonus, so it doesn't really matter if someone is using it outside of combat. If they're caught flat-footed, it doesn't do a thing.
You still get a perception chance to notice the monster and act in the surprise round.
Unless you are the DM for me in bonekeep where every encoutner the monsters get a free uncontested surprise round.
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I've heard about a lot of this happening. I did run both Bonekeeps, and there are some HEFTY Stealth scores in them.
I'm not going to get between you and your GM and say who was in the right, but I do sometimes roll my player's Perception scores for them when I want something to be an actual surprise.
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Yes, and a surprise round should almost never happen without a Perception check. I can think of one situation in one of the Bonekeeps that MIGHT qualify depending on GM interpretation, but in general surprise rounds are frequently misinterpreted.
No, Runelord Krune doesn't get a surprise round because he decides to attack the PCs.
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Cao, I'm at work right now so can't look it up, but I believe it says in the entry for style feats in ultimate combat that you have to be in combat to activate a style feat. One of the regulars in my group is a snake stylist, and I remember we had to look this up when he asked if he could just always be in snake style.
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Some of the OP's gm issues just seem to be a lack of full rules knowlege for things. I for one thought you could use a move action to do a swit action till I looked it up thanks to this thread, but I guess that's not true. In that gm's defense though, Krune does concievably have telepathy via his spear... but everything else still seems to be at fault. I find it's important to brush up on rules for complex fights like this in scenarios just to try and make sure this doesn't hapen.
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After speaking with other folks in this area this particular GM has done this before to others, it's not a rules misinterpetation issue, it was not an accident, it seems this GM just bends the rules at his whim because he wants to kill pc's.
I'm not a complainer, i normally just keep quite and let things fall where they fall, my original post was to seek guidance because I was pushed over the edge and wanted to know what other folks would do. But the ara VC seems to be taking care of the issue.
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It's totally outrageous and unacceptable for a GM to actually bend rules "to kill PCs".
Frankly, it's akin to theft - a PC has time investment, which has actual dollar value. A 5th level PC (which could potentially die unrecoverably), for example, represents 48-60 hours of playtime alone: valued according to average US wages (about $25/hour), that PC is worth $1200-$1500, not even including development time.
Moreover, at a con, killing characters can result in missed slots ("I lost my character!") and other disruptions - certainly, unavoidable at times (characters DO die, even at cons), but to deliberately exacerbate it is unforgivable.
It seems as though this GM (whoever it is) is well-known for these kinds of antics; frankly, he should be banned from running games (and this highlights the downside to judge rewards such as free attendence and accomodations at conventions - it can bring some fairly inept judges out of the woodwork.)
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I've had a GM cheat on me twice to kill my character twice in the same scenario. It feels awful, and you don't have any fun as a result. Every single player at the table agreed with me about it. We told said GM several times during the game that what he was doing was wrong, but he ignored us. Now, I refuse to ever sit at a table with him ever again.
It's horrible. GMs shouldn't do it! Even if it's the slightest thing, it can result in character death and they could potentially have a bad experience.
(Edit: Yes, thank you. A player death from cheating would be a horrible crime indeed.)
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Character death.
It's horrible. GMs shouldn't do it! Even if it's the slightest thing, it can result in player death and they could potentially have a bad experience.
You haven't seen some of these GMs. I pack a pistol to cons, just in case. :P
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Cao, I'm at work right now so can't look it up, but I believe it says in the entry for style feats in ultimate combat that you have to be in combat to activate a style feat. One of the regulars in my group is a snake stylist, and I remember we had to look this up when he asked if he could just always be in snake style.
'As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat styl'e
What is unclear from the text is whether you go into a style at the beginning of one combat it is still up after the end of the combat. RAW seems to say once you are in it - you are in it until you change it.