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| 22 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
I know this has been asked before. I looked through those threads and can't seem to find a proper answer.
So, does the Grab ability work out of turn? Like during an Attack-of-Opportunity?
Any link to official rulings would be great, as this is for PFS.
Per RAW, no.
You can only take free actions on your own turn (apart from talking).
As grab requires a free action, it is limited to attack made during your turn.
Doesn't work off turn per RAW.
Same thing for Wolf-style Trip, White-Haired Witch Hair Grapple (reprising the Grab ability + Kraken-style Tenacious Grappled/"do not gain the Grappled Condition yourself"), Whirlwind Ejection, Rock Catching (which is the worst of the bunch, since the ONLY way it can possibly be used RAW is if somebody Readies an Actionn to throw a Rock at you on your turn), and probably a bunch of other 'triggered free action' stuff I can't remember off-hand. I'm pretty sure that has been posted on the boards here YEARS ago, with no action from Paizo.
I believe there is a FAQ (?) allowing re-loading arrows for bows off turn. EDIT: Here it is (UC):
Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?
Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.
—Stephen Radney-MacFarland, 10/13/11
Which is essentially stealth Errata, since that is in the same boat re: Free Actions as all the above examples, as well as other Free Actions: dropping items/changing grip, entering/ending Rage, ending concentration on spells, using a Fear Aura, all of which you can't do off your turn unless explicitly stated.
(And personally, I'm baffled why they issued a FAQ/Stealth Errata for that case but not the others... Being able to make 1 AoO with a Bow is already a pretty unique ability, not being able to make multiple AoOs with it is just not that harsh a rule to live by. )I found this on d20pfsrd, quoting James Jacobs who says:
The grab part of the white hair functions like the monster ability; it doesn't take an action at all and is a part of the main attack.
Which of course conflicts with the actual RAW (free action, same as entering/dropping Rage)... Although if you apply that logic to all these abilities, then they DO all become usable off-turn. There just isn't any FAQ saying to do that, or otherwise distinguishing between these type of 'triggered' free actions and other free actions that aren't meant to be usable at any time you wish off your turn (enter/drop rage, change weapon grips, etc). It does seem plausible that there would be some distinction made between 'triggered' abilities (allowing those free actions off-turn if their trigger happens off turn) and 'non-triggered' free actions (which can't be taken off turn unless explicitly allowed, e.g. talking)... but right now, there is no such distinction, although the Snap Shot FAQ is straying from the RAW and JJ's comment also isn't grounded in RAW.
I hit FAQ, the issue is obvious FAQ worthy when Paizo staff is unofficially contradicting RAW and the Snap Shot FAQ is issuing Stealth Errata for that Feat only but not equivalent cases... Maybe they'll just deal with the issue head-on.
Unclear case:
Flight (Ex or Su)
A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action.
Can that be done off-turn? e.g. when they are not flying but standing on a branch, the branch is destroyed, causing them to fall, can they 'resume flight' off their turn? How does that work with the standard Fly rule: "Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision."? You make the check to avoid damage, but if you are able to 'resume flight' off your turn, does that prevent the actual fall/vertical motion itself? Is the falling distance somehow limited compared to if you don't have the ability to fly/fail the Fly check?
Every GM I've played with has always considered it usable out of turn. Interested to see where this goes.
BTW: I found this thread I started some time ago, still not answered, but relevant to this topic:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p56p?FreeSwift-maneuvers-when-a-given-attack-h its
Basically, should Miss Chance apply separately to a 'free triggered CMB check' e.g. Grab?
Or does it somehow count as the same attack as the attack that triggered it, even if there is a 2nd CMB check to determine the result?
As I think David Bross is saying, sometimes something which happens while it isn't your turn should give you a chance to perform a free action (or even a mysterious "no action" action) when you otherwise wouldn't have been able to.
For instance, if somebody throws a rock at a creature with the Rock Catching ability I'd assume that the target can use a free action to catch the rock even if it isn't the target's turn:
"Rock Catching (Ex) The creature (which must be of at least Large size) can catch Small, Medium, or Large rocks (or projectiles of similar shape). Once per round, a creature that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium one, and 25 for a Large one. (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The creature must be aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt."
If you can't perform that free action out of turn then Rock Catching is a pretty miserable ability since it would only work if somebody threw rocks at you during your turn. I guess there might be some corner cases where that could become possible, but I'd expect them to be few and far between. Honestly the only time I can recall Rock Catching being used is when a DM ruled that giants could catch my Alchemist's bombs as if they were rocks. My PC was overpowered (as touch attackers often are), so it was kind of tough to complain.
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Thanks for the replies.
I agree that a FAQ on free actions would be ideal.
Specifically, the question that needs answering is, if a TRIGGERED ability or power specifically states that it uses a free action to function. Can this free action be done out of turn?
Please just FAQ the FIRST POST! Thank you!
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Free actions occur on your turn unless spelled out by another rule or ability description. Since the description of grab says
PRD wrote:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity
that means when they hit with it (whether on their turn or not) do the following.
I believe since Tetori Monks grab ability references this they do can grab if they hit you with an Unarmed attack at 8th level.
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Free actions occur on your turn unless spelled out by another rule or ability description. Since the description of grab says
PRD wrote:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunitythat means when they hit with it (whether on their turn or not) do the following.
I believe since Tetori Monks grab ability references this they do can grab if they hit you with an Unarmed attack at 8th level.
@Taenia, That makes the most sense.
However, the rules seems to point towards free actions must be used only on your turn. Hence, a FAQ clarification on this would be very helpful. It would allow players to make decisions on their characters' builds, without worrying how different GMs may choose to interpret these special attacks/abilities.More so in a PFS setting.
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Don't be hatin' on Snap Shot users.
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.Also, grab happens
f a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunityThere are many times where a free action couldn't be taken but the rules tell you something happens, so, it deals the damage, and you attempt to start a grapple, regardless of the fact you can't take a free action because it isn't your turn, the attack does that as part of a successful attack.
Just read the FAQ entry on Snap Shot and reloading arrows as free actions.
Base on the FAQ what you said is right.Free actions that are part of an attack or another action, should work even out of turn...
Continuing call for a FAQ or look into this.