Having read the Reach Cleric guide several times, I am looking into applying those principals to the Arcane equivalent: an Eldritch Knight.
Goals: Using a reach weapon, maintain a melee presence while still casting. For example, the reach cleric casts spells, move, and sets himself up so any opponents must move and attack... leading to AoO's from his reach weapon. After casting battle changing spells, he helps mop up.
Since you never cast or fight at the same time, it seems like Quicken Spell wouldn't be quite as high a priority.
SWIFT ACTIONS: Seems there is a few things to do here, at least until level 16-sih, when you get Spell Critical.
1.) Quicken Spell
2.) Arcane Strike
3.) Arcane Armor Training/Mastery
Opinions? (I am going to default and say arcane Armor Training).
So, just to throw a midway build out there:
Human 20 point buy, Fighter 1 (Lore Warden)/Wizard 5 (Tensmuter)/Eldritch Knight 6
STR 14 (16) (18 as 5th Transmuter Wizard)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 15
WIS 10
CHA 8
traits:
magical Knack
Reactionary
1 Combat Reflexes
1 Power Attack
(F1)Weapon Focus: (Reach weapon of choice)
3 Arcane Armor Training
5 Improved Initiative
(W5) Extend Spell?
7 Furious Focus
(1EK)???
9 Weapon Specialization: (Reach weapon of choice)
11 Toughness
(5EK)Improved Critcal (Weapon of choice)
mithril chainshirt, reach weapon, spiked gauntlet, longsword.
(eventually +STR/DEX item, +INT Headband)
So again, the idea is to cast a spell, position. Let enemies come to you, deliver AoO's. Rinse and repeat. (because of this, Arcane Strike isn't feasible). Once the battle is yours, help mop up. If you cannot cast more spells, or run out of room to re-position, use your combat ability in a typical melee fashion.
Should maintain a solid melee presence, with more versatile spells than a Magus.
Any thoughts or opinions?
Thanks in advance!
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1.) Quicken Spell
2.) Arcane Strike
3.) Arcane Armor Training/Mastery
Arcane Strike is a decent feat, and if it doesn't have any competition for the swift action economy it's a no-brainer choice. It gets less useful at higher levels, though, as quicken spell comes into its own. If you're allowed to retrain feats, I'd say definitely go for it. Otherwise, it's worth consideration.
Wouldn't touch arcane armor training, personally. It's never a good sign when a feat compares unfavorably against a 1st level spell. Mage Armor is just as good as a mithril chain shirt, lasts pretty much all day, doesn't cost anything, doesn't require a feat investment, and doesn't require you to use a swift action every round you want to cast a spell.
Quicken spell is exceptionally good for the eldritch knight, but the feat requires you to be a fairly high level just for it to be functional. I'd say to pick up as your level 13 feat selection.
(eventually +STR/DEX item, +INT Headband)
Keep in mind the transmuter's "physical enhancement" special is an enhancement bonus; it doesn't stack with items or most spells.
I agree about AAT, at later levels when you can upgrade the chainshirt, and Mage armor stays where it is at though...
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Ek is only good if you are going the crit wrought. If you can find your self a reach weapon with the crit range of a rapier then you are golden. With that stated i highly advise not getting any feats that use up your swift action unless you can retrain it later. If you can retrain it later then of the listed feats Arcane Strike is the best option early game for that needed boost to damage.
I agree about AAT, at later levels when you can upgrade the chainshirt, and Mage armor stays where it is at though...
There are better uses of your wealth, feats, and swift actions.
I'm playing an similar EK at level 9 right now. Not with reach though.
I use AAM with a mithral chainmail (breastplate would be better but we found a nice mithral chainmail +3). My build is a bit odd. I got mostly the same feats as you (i.e. lots of combat feats) but my abilities are caster focused (started with int 17 and all increases go there).
As I don't use a reach weapon, I can always decide weather I use AAM to cast a spell or Arcane Strike for damage. I've pretty much given up on using Quicken or Spell Critical. The former is nice but unlike a wizard, I don't need to get of many spells for good defense or damage (both covered by armor and weapon). And Spell Critical? Great Capstone, but a Spell Storing Weapon will do nearly the same most of the time. And I don't even need to crit.
Frankly, I don't know if the reach concept works that good. Yes, IF an enemy runs towards you, you get a free attack. But what if he just uses spells, SLA or other special abilities? What if he simply attacks the rest of the party without coming into your reach? Also, many high level foes have reach themself and might just as well pummel you without ever provoking an attack.
A nearly full caster isn't all that impressive if all his feats are for melee combat. He shouldn't be ignored but giving him priority over a raging pouncing barbarian or a true full caster wizard won't do you any good.
Enlarge Person is a 1 round cast. That's one round in which you can't take AoOs and enemies can close in and disrupt your concentration. Qicken Enlarge could be nice, though, if you take the armorless route. Giant Form can't be used before level 15, which is very late. Both also have the problem that you can't attack anything closer than 15 ft, so you're in trouble if something does come close.
I like a switch-hitting/casting EK and the Reach idea isn't bad. I just don't think it'll grant you that many free attacks. You get one if the enemy comes close but after that it's pretty much 5-ft-step-shuffle and in close quaters or difficult terrain you're more than likely at a disadvantage.
what level do you anticipate playing to? and when do you want to peak? that makes a definite difference in how you build a character like this.
assuming you're starting at low level and playing up to mid to high-mid level consider something like this: fighter 1/wizard [divination:scryer] 1/eldritch knight X (the clairvoyance spell-like ability from scryer lets you qualify early). by 11th level you'd be EK 9, which means you're not losing out on nearly as much BAB (or HP). you could also do it as a transmuter if you switched to a base aasimar (via the daylight SLA) but then your stat boosts are all wrong. this level range assumes that quicken will never really be worthwhile, so don't feel bed taking AAT/AAM.
if you're starting at mid levels and working up from there (or are completely certain that you'll make it to upper levels)consider: base Aasimar, monk [sohei] 1/wildblooded sorcerer [empyreal] 1/eldritch knight X. invest in a guided weapon and you'll be using Wis for attack/damage, AC, will, and casting stat! use an extend rod to keep mage armor up and take quicken spell at 13th.
@Blave Read the Reach Cleric Guide, it does a much better job of explaining the wonders of reach and casting than I will ever do. But yes, basically, if as a full caster I CAN'T make them want to come and get me, I'm casting wrong.
Presumably I would start at low levels: This build is really for my book of builds, that i am constantly adding too.
Typically, I play PFS and/or use PFS level caps while playing with my own group.
Getting to level 10 EK, and having spells cast on a crit is never a priority anyway. Its a luck based ability, no point in NOT using that swift action, in the hopes of winning the lottery.
Yes, I noticed the Scryer ability as well, makes for a nice entry.
SO... I see a few ways to go:
1.) High Dex, Mage Armor
2.) Mid Dex, AAT
3.) Low Dex, Still Spell/ no somatic spells
Human Fighter 1/Wizard (Scryer) 1/EK 10
STR 14(16)>18
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 15 >16
WIS 10
CHA 8
traits:
Magical Knack
Reactionary
1 Combat Reflexes
1 Power Attack
(F1) Improved Initiative
3 Arcane Armor Training/ Arcane Strike
(EK1)Weapon Focus
5 Furious Focus
7 Extend/Still/Quicken Spell???
(EK5)Weapon Specialization
9 Improved Critical
11 Critical Focus
(EK9)Bleeding Critical
What to do for opposition schools? Any suggestions?
i could be mistaken (i don't really play much PFS) but i don't think magical knack is legal in society play (otherwise its a great choice).
i'm not sure all the investment in initiative is necessary- with a reach weapon and combat reflexes, losing initiative often just means getting free attacks before your turn; i suppose you're trying to get a buff off before combat really starts... if you know you're going to be in melee a lot you might want to think about possibly switching those out for arcane graduate and combat casting.
edit: aside from just not having enough feats, there's no reason not to take AAT and arcane strike- they both use your swift action but they're for different rounds: you only use arcane strike when you spend your action to attack (which means no worry about ASF) and you only use AAT in rounds you chose to cast- quicken spell would conflict with both but you wouldn't even be able to take it til the very end of your build (at 9th level you could quicken a 0th level spell if you want to waste a 4th level slot... its not til 11th that you could even quicken a 1st level spell).
Look at the feat Lunge. Another 5 feat range on your reach is absolutely trolling (basically huge sized reach) and it lets you get more DPS out of your AoO's.
i could be mistaken (i don't really play much PFS) but i don't think magical knack is legal in society play (otherwise its a great choice).
i'm not sure all the investment in initiative is necessary- with a reach weapon and combat reflexes, losing initiative often just means getting free attacks before your turn; i suppose you're trying to get a buff off before combat really starts... if you know you're going to be in melee a lot you might want to think about possibly switching those out for arcane graduate and combat casting.
You are right about Magical Knack, again, this is for my collection more than anything else right now.
Lunge might go well where initiative is, sure...
Recommendations for opposition schools? Divination (scryer) is obviously by specialty...
Lunge doesn't work for AoOs. It only increases your reach until the end of your current turn. Might still be useful to attack someone just outside your range withot going so close that he can 5-ft-step towards you.
@Cathulu: I've read the reach cleric guide. Multiple times, in fact. And I don't doubt that an EK's casting can make enemies come to you if you really want. It's still situational and will only work if you are the biggest threat. And frankly, if you are the biggest threat with a class that's build for versatility, your full casters and melee guys are doing a terrible job.
Also, I do doubt that you get more than one or two attacks out of your reach weapon in any given combat. I've seen reach characters and most of the time they were at a disadvantage. I will say however that most people I play with are somewhat inexperienced. Better group tactics and positioning might go a long way.
As for opposed schools, enchantment should be your top choice. With your stats, save or sucks are a bad idea and I've yet to really miss Heroism. At my level (9 currently) I prepare it with two slots but I didn't need to cast it yet.
My second opposed school is Divination - obviously not an option for you. I'd say necromancy but as always it depends on your playstyle.
i respectfully disagree with blave about number of AoOs- my last reach character (a fighter/monk with a guisarme) got an insane number of them... i can't remember a combat where he got less than 2-3, and in some encounters he would regularly get that in one round. it really is all about positioning (and enlarge helps a lot too).
for oppostion schools- enchantment (even though i think you'll actually miss heroism, but blave is right you don't have the stats for save-or-suck) and illusion (you want to attract attention, not avoid it- and you can always spend 2 slots if you really feel like you need a vanish or invisibility 'just in case')
edit: and, actually, i did play an EK with a glaive in a different campaign, now that i think about it... that was a bigger group with more melee in it (a barbarian, a cavalier, and a frequent NPC fighter), and he did get less AoOs, but it was still a significant number (probably 1-2/round most combats)- the more willing people are to stand behind or next to you, the more AoOs you'll get (if everyone else is just going to charge headlong into combat it'll be harder to get them)
you know... on further consideration, i'd like to change my opposition schools vote- enchantment and necromancy. i forget that illusion is where you get mirror image, blur, and displacement- all of which are valuable defensive resources when playing a character like this with a love/hate relationship with armor. necromancy has some spells that could be fun/interesting for an EK (vampiric touch comes immediately to mind) but most of them will have the same problem with your low save DCs as the enchantments.
also, remember that for a reach character the goal is not to get enemies to attack you (as it seemed some other posters might be saying) but rather to position yourself in such a way that enemies have to provoke AoOs from you in order to get to/harm the people attracting the most attention.
I have an elf Destined sorcerer 4/cavalier 1 that is looking to go EK in a PbP. He's going for reach too.
So far he has Eschew Materials (sorcerer bonus), Combat Reflexes, Toughness, Improved Initiative, and Precise Strike (cavalier bonus). Reactionary and Magical Knack are his traits.
The party barbarian also took Precise Strike at 5th level, and the other player is a ninja, so there will be lots of flanky goodness. The ninja is primarily ranged, so the usual set up is barbarian, sorcerer, ninja. The sorcerer is uncannily buffy.