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Hello all,
I'm thinking of running a Level 2 Ninja / Level 9 Sorc in PFS with 20pt stat buy. I'm also thinking of picking up the Arcana bloodline and get a familiar or bonded item since I only have the Core Rulebook, APG, and UC. I think what makes this a reasonable build is the need for only high Cha and Dex and the ability to go Invisible as a swift action 5 times a day with Vanishing Tricks. What race, stats, and advice would you have for this build?
Contributor
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I recommend the Arcane Trickster PrC. It's like a combination of magic and rogueishness (or ninjalocity, in this case), and is rather good. Ranged Legerdemain is very nice.
As for race? At a glance, I'd say human. But halfling is a good option, if you don't mind the Str penalty. Dex and Cha are very necessary for such a build.
Finally...remember to tell your GMs that senak attack TECHNICALLY works with attacking spells.
Unless I'm wrong.
In which case you should not.
I have a friend with a rogue/wizard/arcane trickster, and he plays it very well. Here's hoping you enjoy playing this char!
You are aware that you can't start at level 11 in PFS, right? You start from zero XP and build as you go.
If you do plan to go arcane trickster, you should get a race that will fulfill your 2nd level spell requirement for you.
If you don't mind getting the books, Idlekin or muse-touched aasimar or the Div or Rakshasa tieflings would be really good for this.
Sitri, he doesn't have the books for those.
Kysune, I would recommend the Shadow or Dreamspun bloodlines. I think both are thematically very appropriate to a sneaky caster and would mesh very well with a few levels of ninja. The Halfling or Gnome would be best. The Halfling would be slightly sneakier the gnome could be a bit better at casting. (Unless you are just using the sneak to get into range for weapon attacks. But it doesn't sound like that is what you are wanting to do.)
Other advice would depend upon what you want the character to be able to do. Are you going to:
offensively cast SoS/SoD spells
offensively cast crowd control and debuff spells
buff and defensive casting
Sitri, he doesn't have the books for those.
If you don't mind getting the books
...
You are aware that you can't start at level 11 in PFS, right? You start from zero XP and build as you go.
i think that is just his planned build
Sitri, he doesn't have the books for those.If you don't mind getting the books...
Yes, but he specifically said.
... since I only have the Core Rulebook, APG, and UC...
:)
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Yes Patrick, I just wanted to state where I was heading with the build. I'd be starting my first two levels as Ninja and then taking the rest of my levels in Sorcerer.
I was aiming at playing the character as a Ray and Touch based user. Picking up Weapon Focus Rays and Weapon Finessee so I could melee touch attack with Dex.
Some spells I'd be picking up would be Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Acid Arrow, Touch of Idiocy, Scorching Ray, Ghoul Touch, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Enervation, Contagion, Bestow Curse?
I'm probably missing some good spells or listing some really crappy ones but I'm not sure. When you think about it a 2dip Ninja would give 5 uses of Quick Cast Invisibility. So I think walking up, touch spell, then Swift Invisibility would work really well.
The build is for a magic assassin, stealth or invisibility in to close range and touch attack then instant vanish and then reappear at long range and ray attack, they spend their turn getting into melee range and then I touch attack cast again and then vanish.
I know it won't work the entire Session but for a hard encounter that's 5 quick cast invisibilities in my pocket. Also gives me the flavor of carrying a katana or wakizashi around and wearing Silk Ceremonial Armor and a Haramaki for +1ac (I know they don't stack but it's for flavor and neither add Arcana Failure or have a Dex cap. Just wearing both for looks.)
I'll check out the Arcane Trickster. Just hoping it builds off Charisma because I don't want to make this character MAD. Seems great atm since I only need to focus Dex and Cha.
... I'll check out the Arcane Trickster. Just hoping it builds off Charisma because I don't want to make this character MAD. Seems great atm since I only need to focus Dex and Cha.
Uses whatever spellcasting class you used to qualify for the PrC.
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Just checked it. It looks great but I need 2d6 sneak attack and I'd feel bad if I didn't go Ninja lvl 4 for the 1 extra ki, extra BaB and Reflex Save and to pickup uncanny dodge and Forgotten Tricks with my 2nd ninja trick.
If I did that and had to wait till I could cast level 2 spells I'd have to get 4 levels of Sorcerer. So, The earliest I'd be able to grab that is on my 9th level (so 3 levels of Arcane Trickster) but I'd miss out on 4th level Sorcerer Spells since I'd go 4th level Ninja.
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Piggy Backing off my not being able to cast 2nd level spells until level 4. Is there any way around that legally in PFS or does it require a lot of cheese?
I also didn't think of Oracle but I doubt if they have any rays or touch attacks that would make my character really worth it. Guessing it would be a great healer/buffer with escapes but I don't think a Ninja/Oracle would be any good as an offensive caster right? If not then I'd have to stick with a Ninja/Sorcerer. (Was thinking maybe Oracle had a way to cast lvl2 spells before 4th level somehow)
Oracle gets the cleric spells and whatever is given by the mystery. There are a few good touch and ray spells and successful builds have used it. But not nearly as many as with the sorc.
Oracle gets second level spells at the same time as sorc. But does not qualify you for arcane trickster since it is a divine not aracne caster.
As far as other ways to do it, see Sitri's response at the beginning about using non-core races. It is kinda cheesy but it is the only other way I know of to do it.
That is not the kind of spell I usually use, but some of my favorites are:
1 corrosive touch, ray of sickening, touch of gracelessness, ray of enfeeblement
2 frigid touch, elemental touch, pilfering hand, spectral hand
3 excruciating deformation, force punch, chain of perdition, ray of exhaustion
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Would building a stealth caster around touch/ray spells work great or should I focus on ray and cone area spells? Not sure how to best utilize my high dex and cha scores.
I think I might go with 8str,18dex,10con,10int,10wis,18cha Halfling 20pt stat buy. Not sure if that's the best array but thinking it'd work out well.
I would start with only 17 in des and cha and use 4th and 8th points to make them 18. That way you have 6 more points to increase int, con and str by 2 points each.
Have you considered alternatives like sandman or archaeologist bard? Might be worth a look for you.
Race: I'd second the recommendation for muse-touched aasimar.
Dex and Cha +2
No minuses
Darkvision, which is great for a ninja
And Glitterdust, a great 2nd level spell, to quickly qualify you for arcane trickster if you go that way. (it potentially blinds opponents and makes the invisible ones visible.)
It probably varies by group, but my PFS GMs have never asked to see my book for commonly used races like aasimar.
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obscuring mist is a great spell, but remember that your friends can't see thru it either. only use it for yourself or partymembers who want a fallback position.
forgotten trick is very useful, and very expensive. If you're only going to 2nd level ninja then you won't have many ki points for it.
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I appreciate the advice. Can you advise what books I'd need to buy to play a Muse-Touched Aasimar? If I was to play that race I'd buy those books because I'm not comfortable lying or cheating.
When using items that increase Cha it would also increase the amount of Ki I own correct? I'd have to go 4 Ninja period to get 2d6 sneak attack as that's the main issue. If +Cha items increase Ki then I'd probably have a ton of Ki to use by the time I'm lvl 8-11. And going 4 ninja I HAVE to pick another trick anyways.
"blood of angels" gets you everything you need for an aasimar...
subtypes
alternate racial traits
preferred class bonueses
I would be careful using too many of the touch spells. You have to get close to use it and your attack won't be great unless you also take weapon finesse.
Instead of just asking us for what spells we like out of the multitude. try to put together a sample list that you are considering and we can help you evaluate the list.
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Well if I go the Deaf cursed Ninja/Oracle I'd probably be looking at spells like: Shatter, Silence (Since I can't hear anyways. :P ), Soundburst, Contagion, Bestow Curse, Daylight & Dark/Mist spells, and Cure spells. I'd probably pick Flame or Stone mystery or I'd adjust my stats some and play melee with the Battle mystery.
Now, if I went Ninja/Sorc I'd probably get spells like Minor Image so I could cast it on myself then swift invisibility and with my image it would look like I never disappeared. Enemies would cast or attack my image while I'm moving around. I'd possibly get the Fey Bloodline and use the Poison and Speed Poison effect spell from APG to cause poison to affect someone twice a turn.
I'd either be inclined to use Necromancy or AoE spells and status affecting spells with some damage spells in the mix.
I'm doubting that I could make any useful melee character though with my 3/4 BaB despite the buff spells from Oracle or Sorcerer though.
I can't really say exactly what spells because I'm not sure what niche I could best fit. My main idea is to deceive, disable, and impede/drain enemies of their usefulness. I'd obviously need some damage spells in there though also.
A mage assassin. Stepping out of the shadows and hitting enemies with effects that stop them in their tracks and allowing me to capitalize on them being caught off guard. (I keep getting the idea of the Mage Assassin from the online game Shadowbane. They'd be invisible till they cast a spell on someone and they'd slow them down to a crawl while unloading damage on the enemy.)
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What do I NOT want my character style to be?
A) Charmer
B) Buffer (unless I go the route to buff myself to increase swift vanishing and sneak attacking opportunities.)
C) Monster Summoner
What I'd prefer my character style to be?
A) Silently go in, catch people off guard, and push the advantage.
It'll be PFS play so enemies may be aware of my team but I want to move around the battlefield, keeping my enemies guessing where I'm going to strike from next and hit them in their weak spots.
I figured some of the stat debuff and poison spells were interesting since you can't Craft Poisons in PFS and if you buy them they're very expensive.
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Spells I would most likely use as a lvl 2 Ninja / lvl 9 Sorc:
Touch of Gracelessness, Liberating Command, Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missle, Obscuring Mist, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Acid Arrow, Glitterdust, Ghoul Touch, Stone Call, Accelerate Poison, Calcific Touch, Resinous Skin, Dispel Magic, Sepia Snake Sigil or Hold Person, Suggestion (if I take SSS), Wind Wall, Vampiric Touch, Haste, Resilient Sphere (for oh crap moments, I can RS and then use a wand of CLW to heal up safely), Enervation, and Bestow Curse.
ray spells can be used to sneak attack within 30'- so that might be a good focus for spell selection.
the reason people keep suggesting Musetouched Aasimar (aside from having perfect stat adjustments for this) is because spell-like abilities satisfy requirements for feats and PrCs... so that race could take their first level of arcane trickster after ninja 3/sorc 1 (though in order to minimize the damage to your BAB ninja 4/sorc 2 then AT is your best bet)
ray spells can be used to sneak attack within 30'- so that might be a good focus for spell selection...
I can't be sure. By I think I remember reading that the sneak attack only works with rays that do hitpoint damage. So you couldn't use it with Ray of Enfeeblement.
hmmm... i think you may be right, kydeem. also if i remember correctly spells that fire multiple rays at once (like scorching ray) only deal sneak attack on one of them.
some of the touch attack and range touch attack spells that could do sneak attack damage.
acid splash
ray of frost
corrosive touch
shocking grasp
chill touch
frigid touch
force punch
elemental touch
acid arrow
scorching ray
vampiric touch
Those are the ones I can think of quickly.
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Small Halfling/Aasimar Azata-Blooded (Musetouched)
8str, 16+2dex, 14con, 10int, 10wis, 15+2cha
Darkvision 60ft, +2 diplomacy/perform, glitterdust 1/day, 5 resist to acid/cold/electricity
I'm wondering if "Deathless Spirit" or "Exalted Resistance" would worth taking over Celestial Resistance. Thoughts?
Level Progression: 4 Ninja, then 1 Sorc, then 6 Arcane Trickster.
Sneak Attack: 5d6 at lvl 11
(EDITED)Sorc Bloodline: Undecided
(EDITED)Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Angelic Wings, Weapon Focus: Rays, Weapon Finesse (for touch spells)
Weapons: Dagger and Short bow (I wish Ninjas were proficient with the Tekko-kagi.)
Armor: Silken Ceremonial Armor (+1 AC. No arcane spell failure, no check penalty, and unlimited max dex bonus.)
I don't believe arcane trickster advances your familiar so it will stay at first level. Unless you really want to keep a really weak fox I would pick a different bloodline.
You will only ever gain the 1st level power and the arcana, but some of them are nice.
Since you are going to be a spell caster I might not take a feat for wings. You can easily fit levitate or fly into you spell list. Or buy a wand of levitate.
I do like the deathless spirit. The SR from Exhalted resistance seems too low to have much effect, but I could be wrong.
Consider point blank shot and precise shot to be able to use those rays on guys already in combat.
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Ah you're right. I thought it was referring to max caster level.
So the bloodlines I'm seeing worth getting are:
Arcane - Bonded item
Undead - Gravetouch doesn't state a save, you only have to hit them via touch.
Fey - +2 to Compulsion DC's. (Might be good for a Sepia Snake Sigil + Command? (I could carry a wand or scrolls of Command to make them read a letter.)
Maybe Protean or Verdant?
I don't have UM and not up for buying it. So my selection is just between Core, APG, ARG, and BoA.
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Martyred bloodline doesn't seem too bad either.
Exalted Resistance would net 10 SR vs evil descriptor or vs evil outsiders at level 11. So I think you're right that it's a bit low.
I think I might go with the Deathless Spirit since energy drain/negatives energy, necromancy spells/abilities do come up sometimes in PFS.
Edit: After updating the feats, I still have 1 feat left to throw somewhere. Should I grab a Metamagic feat or something like Combat Casting?
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I think the Umbral Bloodline gives some stealth boosts. Then there is my favorite bloodline, the celestial (It gives you free 1/day healing to people and ranged touch attacks). I think that a bloodline that gives a ranged touch attack would be better than the arcane bond item, because you can't benefit from spont. cast (you already spont. cast). Also, if you get the ultimate equipment at some point, there is an item that lets you sneak attack from any range.
Precise shot, arcane strike, and arcane armor training could be helpful feats.
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I'm thinking of only going Ninja 3. The difference between 3ninja/1sorc/7arcane tricker and 4ninja/1sorc/6arcane trickster is following:
4ninja/1sorc/6arcane trickster
+1 BAB, uncanny dodge, ninja trick
Either Bleeding attack or Forgotten Tricks seem to be the only good options. BA would let me not waste Ki and allow me to lay down ongoing bleed damage from 30ft distance with Ray dmg sneak attacks. Forgotten tricks lets me pick anything but it'll drain my Ki and I think most of the options I could just take a Sorc spell to cover any really useful ones like Slowfall.
3ninja/1sorc/7arcane tricker
+1 Will save, +1 Impromptu sneak attack per day, +1 Tricky spells per day, +1 3rd lvl spell, +3 4th lvl spells.
What do you guys think is the better choice? I'm leaning towards 3rd lvl ninja & 7th lvl arcane trickster.
EDIT: Btw welcome to the thread ArmouredMonk13! Does Arcane Strike work for Rays? Or would I be using it on my dagger or shortbow? I also like the idea of Arcane Armor Training but it requires me to spend my swift action I'd use for Vanishing Tricks, and any armor I'm looking at with 10% Spell Failure chance or less and no armor check penalties will only net me +1ac while putting a +6 cap dex bonus to AC. Not sure I want to spend a feat for that trade.
Flurry of Stars is a better Ninja Trick than it first appears.
Shuriken with their d2 damage are almost laughable, except...
If your initiative is good enough to catch a foe flat-footed, and it should be...
then this gives you 3 sneak attacks from 10' away. (no need to waste your move action closing in. you wait for them to come to you. *then* you vanish. *then* you get full-round attacks next turn)
shuriken are ammunition- you *do not need* the quick draw feat, to get the first two in hand. then my ninja has spring loaded wrist sheaths for the next two. so when she catches a foe flat-footed the damage goes from a laughable
1d2
to a far more interesting
4 x {d2 + 3[str] + 5d6 [sneak attack]}
just to consider. as an arcane trickster, you'll have other ranged attacks, but few will give you 3-4 attacks a round.
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@Apocalypso - I like the idea but one of the issues is I will only get multiple Sneak attacks per round only if I act before the target enemy during a surprise round or if I have some form of Greater Invisibility that doesn't break invisibility when attacking. If I vanish and then full-round attack with FoS then only the first shuriken does sneak attack damage.
I do like the idea of the two spring loaded wrist sheaths for daggers.
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The Shadow bloodline gives a bonus to stealth through the arcana (with shadow spells only though :(), the protean bloodline gives you a ranged touch attack tanglefoot bag that deals HP damage (and therefor gains sneak attack) and has the entangle effect, and the Dreamspun bloodline gives an AC boost when you cast spells that target a single thing (acid splash, you say?). All these are in the APG. Just some ideas.
Kysune I have a guide to the arcane trickster that covers this specific combination (Link)
I recommend the aberrant bloodline if you want to use touch spells. The extended reach ability you get at third level can be huge.
surprise round AND flatfooted BOTH count for sneak attacking.
remember, if you go before he does, than EVERY attack is a sneak attack.
and with a good dex you should have a good initiative. invest in
reactionary trait (+2) and
improved initiative (+4)
to make it even better.
this solved a problem for my ninja who used to always go first (at level 9 has +16 initiative)
but then had to waste it moving and doing only one standard (sneak) attack.
~~~
But now with the ranged attack, I can use his flatfootedness to full advantage.
Round 1--
I ALWAYS go first. I ALWAYS catch him flat-footed
Ranged. 4 Shuriken. ALL SNEAK ATTACKS
His turn. He moves towards me and only gets one standard attack.
Also gives time for mage to cast greater invisibility on me, if the situation is right. he won't follow me if I've closed for combat, but if I'm hanging back a bit, then he might get the chance.
Round 2--
Hopefully I have a flanking buddy by now. Or the mage has cast greater invisibility on me. If so...
4-6 Wakizashi flanking sneak attacks. (vanish.)
If no flanking buddies and no invisibility...
vanish. 4 wakizahi attacks. only first is sneak attack.
Repeat Round 2 as needed.
Also: difference between dagger and shuriken:
shuriken are "ammunition" you get the first two draws for free, and then another 2 with the sheaths= 4.
daggers are thrown weapons. you need to draw them (move action), or have the quick draw feat, or have spring loaded sheaths. without quick draw the most you can throw a round is 2.
and again its not the damage d4 vs d2. the point is to get in as many FLATFOOTED sneak attacks as possible. and add in all those beautiful many, many extra d6s.
Um... you have unlimited draws for ammunition for free -- unless you have a house rule working against you... same with quick draw... it even specifically states you can take as many attacks with thrown weapons on a full attack as you would normally get.
At most there is an argument against quick draw allowing rapid shot -- but that's as far as that goes.